Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

[raph]

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This is the duty of every Muslim. As such, there can be no peace until everyone submits to Islam. Any Muslim who denies the authority of this passage, denies Islam.

This verse is not about forcing people to believe in Islam. This verse is about fighting people who don't pay the taxes and don't submit to an islamic state. You can see in this verse, that religion is not a reason for fighting. When these people pay taxes and submit to the islamic state, you should stop the fighting. What would a modern state do, when a group of people says "I won't pay taxes and won't submit to the state"? Even modern states would fight against such a group of people. Probably not with swords and camels, but some kind of fight would surely be going on.

The Jizya tax is a tax for unbelievers. Unbelievers are not forced to go to the military, that's why they pay a special tax. Muslims are forced to go to military, to protect muslims and non-muslims, but unbelievers don't need to go to war. This tax is one proof that islam is supposed to let unbelievers live peacfully in islamic states. If unbelievers weren't supposed to live in islamic states, if everyone would be forced to become muslim, there would be no tax for unbelievers.

 

[Shad]

This verse is not about forcing people to believe in Islam. This verse is about fighting people who don't pay the taxes and don't submit to an islamic state. You can see in this verse, that religion is not a reason for fighting. When these people pay taxes and submit to the islamic state, you should stop the fighting. What would a modern state do, when a group of people says "I won't pay taxes and won't submit to the state"? Even modern states would fight against such a group of people. Probably not with swords and camels, but some kind of fight would surely be going on.

The Jizya tax is a tax for unbelievers. Unbelievers are not forced to go to the military, that's why they pay a special tax. This tax is one proof that islam is supposed to let unbelievers live peacfully in islamic states. If unbelievers weren't supposed to live in islamic states, if everyone would be forced to become muslim, there would be no tax for unbelievers.

Allah, Last Day, forbidden, religion of Truth are not states nor taxes. It is a religious view and telling those that reject this view should be fought, hence forced into compulsion or submission. The tax is the result of this compulsion, either accept Islam or Islamic authority over them which is just a totalitarianism ideology. The tax is an exchange for rights for a specific group thus is discriminatory since it treats people differently based on religion only. You attempt to cover the religious views by a tax system which is only applicable after the fighting is done. Religious reasons for fight others, state system for after they have lost. Hence the motivation to wage war is religious not political.

 

[raph]

Allah, Last Day, forbidden, religion of Truth are not states nor taxes. It is a religious view and telling those that reject this view should be fought, hence forced into compulsion or submission. The tax is the result of this compulsion, either accept Islam or Islamic authority over them which is just a totalitarianism ideology. The tax is an exchange for rights for a specific group thus is discriminatory since it treats people differently based on religion only. You attempt to cover the religious views by a tax system which is only applicable after the fighting is done. Religious reasons for fight others, state system for after they have lost. Hence the motivation to wage war is religious not political.

This is your interpretation, which results from reading only half of the book.

8:61
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.
60:8
“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.
18:29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

 

[Theweirdtophat]

So I do wonder which Muslim countries force non muslims to pay a tax? What about the ones with freedom of religion like Malaysia and Kazakhstan?

 

[McBell]

But then there's this:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This is the duty of every Muslim. As such, there can be no peace until everyone submits to Islam. Any Muslim who denies the authority of this passage, denies Islam.

Is it your claim that the word "fight" in that passage means "kill"?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Fight doesn't always mean kill although often it can. It just means to fight back.

 

[YmirGF]

Fight doesn't always mean kill although often it can. It just means to fight back.

By the same token then one should be well within their rights to fight against Islam with all their might and using any tactics they deem necessary. Like, of course Islam isn't all that bad when compared to a pandemic or brain cancer.... but would you actually want to live under Sharia Law as a second-class citizen?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

By the same token then one should be well within their rights to fight against Islam with all their might and using any tactics they deem necessary. Like, of course Islam isn't all that bad when compared to a pandemic or brain cancer.... but would you actually want to live under Sharia Law as a second-class citizen?

Not all of them enforce Sharia Law. I have no interest in fighting against Islam but against those who pervert Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

Not all of them enforce Sharia Law. I have no interest in fighting against Islam but against those who pervert Islam.

Then we get to the $64,000 question of who is actually "perverting" Islam.

 

[Kirran]

Not all of them enforce Sharia Law. I have no interest in fighting against Islam but against those who pervert Islam.

I think saying we know who's perverting Islam, and who's following the real Islam, doesn't make sense for us as non-Muslims.

 

[YmirGF]

I think saying we know who's perverting Islam, and who's following the real Islam, doesn't make sense for us as non-Muslims.

Indeed, rather than "perverting" it would seem to be more a case of some taking the core readings and concepts a tad more literally than is perhaps healthy.

 

[Kirran]

Indeed, rather than "perverting" it would seem to be more a case of some taking the core readings and concepts a tad more literally than is perhaps healthy.

Which, troublingly, is basically the opposite of what many Muslims would take 'perverting' Islam to mean.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Then we get to the $64,000 question of who is actually "perverting" Islam.

I can't give names but some clergymen in the poorer Muslims states will often try to pervert it for their own agenda. Some of the people they try to persuade are illiterate and have no access to the internet so they could compare information so naturally it's easy for them to get brainwashed. Lot of the terrorists come from poor areas.

 

[Kirran]

I can't give names but some clergymen in the poorer Muslims states will often try to pervert it for their own agenda. Some of the people they try to persuade are illiterate and have no access to the internet so they could compare information so naturally it's easy for them to get brainwashed. Lot of the terrorists come from poor areas.

True. Although very well-educated and intelligent people living in Western countries can also become radicalised.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

True. Although very well-educated and intelligent people living in Western countries can also become radicalised.

They definitely can, but poverty ridden areas can breed quite a bit of crime as well. Uneducated folk have an easier time getting brainwashed. Like with North Korea, where their media, internet, ect. are heavily censored and are cut off from the world and it's information, so they can't compare to what they are being spoon-fed, so naturally many of them are brainwashed as well.

 

[Shad]

This is your interpretation, which results from reading only half of the book.

8:61
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.
60:8
“God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.
18:29
And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

None of which is part of the verse in question nor in context with it. You basically picked a few more peaceful verses and retrofit those meanings into another, ie quoting out of context. Try again.

 

[Kirran]

Can we get a resident Muslim's thoughts?

@Smart_Guy? @Servant_of_the_One1? @FearGod?

 

[raph]

None of which is part of the verse in question nor in context with it. You basically picked a few more peaceful verses and retrofit those meanings into another, ie quoting out of context. Try again.

The context of the Quran is, that it can't be contradictionary. We have peaceful verses and war verses, that can't contradict each other. The solution is, that war verses apply in situations, when enemies make war against you. And peaceful verses apply to situations, when your enemies want peace. How did you see the context of 9:29 to be "conquer every nation and force them to become muslim", when many verses contradict this view?

Defending your position would be showing me a verse or a sura, that clearly tells the muslims to fight peaceful unbelievers. But there is no such verse. Muslims can't fight peaceful unbelievers, the peace verses are very clear. And there is no war verse, that justifies fighting peaceful unbelievers.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Can we get a resident Muslim's thoughts?
@Smart_Guy? @Servant_of_the_One1? @FearGod?

I wish I can say something useful about it, but I'm not good at it. I'm best showing Islam to others, including other misguided Muslims, with actions instead of talking. Not all people listen, you know

 

[Kirran]

I wish I can say something useful about it, but I'm not good at it. I'm best showing Islam to others, including other misguided Muslims, with actions instead of talking. Not all people listen, you know

Well, fair enough. Seeing as you're against homosexuality, I'm not sure that's always the best way to go about it with some people :/