Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

[Theweirdtophat]

Yet there's Quran (9:29). All Muslims are told to "fight".



Excellent argument against it containing any divine authority, and the same arguments can be used against Judaism and Christianity. The rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense are the only items of morality that are self-evident via reason, not some ancient prophet telling us what God said.



More arguments against Islam or any revealed religion. And there are evil Muslims today: 9-11, Isis, Osama ben Laden, and any (all) Muslims who want to implement Sharia Law.

Depends on what you mean by "fight" It usually means attack but you can fight back without resorting to violence. The same could be said for any religion as any religion today isn't the same as it was back then. They had their virtues and vices just like we do. Of course there's evil Muslims, like evil Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists ect. I'm not denying that, but I don't judge an entire group of people because of it. Because not all Muslims have the same beliefs, rules or customs. Muslims in Saudi Arabia won't be the same as the Muslims in Kazakhstan. Some people seem to think all Muslims have the same beliefs and rules and they all don't and some are just looking for reasons to hate them.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Depends on what you mean by "fight" It usually means attack but you can fight back without resorting to violence.

Your quibbling. Fight means fight. But take it in the sense that you use: Would it be moral or right to fight politically to get Sharia Law instituted? By that reasoning a 51% Muslim majority could have infidels, gays, women etc murdered according to the sloppy, brutal reasoning of Sharia.

The same could be said for any religion as any religion today isn't the same as it was back then.

That's the point, Jews and Christians aren't having people stoned for gathering sticks on the sabbath or adultery. But under Sharia, they would be. Islam is, in many ways, stuck in the 7th Century.

Some people seem to think all Muslims have the same beliefs and rules and they all don't and some are just looking for reasons to hate them.

True, but they're afraid to speak out against the violence......or against Sharia, for fear of being labeled an apostate and stoned themselves. Look at the honor killings by otherwise "peaceful" Muslims.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Your quibbling. Fight means fight. But take it in the sense that you use: Would it be moral or right to fight politically to get Sharia Law instituted? By that reasoning a 51% Muslim majority could have infidels, gays, women etc murdered according to the sloppy, brutal reasoning of Sharia.



That's the point, Jews and Christians aren't having people stoned for gathering sticks on the sabbath or adultery. But under Sharia, they would be. Islam is, in many ways, stuck in the 7th Century.



True, but they're afraid to speak out against the violence......or against Sharia, for fear of being labeled an apostate and stoned themselves. Look at the honor killings by otherwise "peaceful" Muslims.

Honor killings aren't nearly as common as people think. In the more extreme Muslim countries it'll be more common, but honor killing isn't specifically a Muslim trait. Other countries have had honor killing and they weren't Muslim. Not every Muslim country enforces strict Sharia Law either. Most Muslims don't go around stoning non believers as you know, murder is still universally accepted to be bad. Most Muslims go to their jobs, do their daily duties and want what you want, which is peace with their families, friends and loved ones. People see them on the news and assume every single Muslim is like that. All Muslims believe in the same thing, they all want to take over the world ect, and it's not true.

I wouldn't be writing this post if didn't think there was a significant amount of good Muslims. I will disagree with some of their rules and customs but most of them are decent folk. There's a billion Muslims and there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslims going around stoning non believers and wanting to enforce Sharia Law. Many speak out against Islamic terrorism and even fight against it. Otherwise you wouldn't see Muslim majority countries like Nigeria, Chad, United Arab Emirates and Jordan fighting Boko Haram and ISIS as well.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Honor killings aren't nearly as common as people think. In the more extreme Muslim countries it'll be more common, but honor killing isn't specifically a Muslim trait. Other countries have had honor killing and they weren't Muslim. Not every Muslim country enforces strict Sharia Law either. Most Muslims don't go around stoning non believers as you know, murder is still universally accepted to be bad. Most Muslims go to their jobs, do their daily duties and want what you want, which is peace with their families, friends and loved ones. People see them on the news and assume every single Muslim is like that. All Muslims believe in the same thing, they all want to take over the world ect, and it's not true.

"Most" Muslims vary widely depending on the country they're in. Ask any Muslim to deny that Quran 9:29 applies to them. They may say they won't use violence to achieve it (there are 2 paths to Jihad), but they just don't think it through to the awful conclusion of acceptance of Sharia Law as the law of a country. At that point, of course such violence becomes mandatory.

I wouldn't be writing this post if didn't think there was a significant amount of good Muslims. I will disagree with some of their rules and customs but most of them are decent folk. There's a billion Muslims and there aren't hundreds of millions of Muslims going around stoning non believers and wanting to enforce Sharia Law.

As in other cultures, the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for "good" men to do nothing. Now is the time for Muslims within us to renounce their religion that mandates Jihad, and it's evil prophet Mohammed.

Many speak out against Islamic terrorism and even fight against it. Otherwise you wouldn't see Muslim majority countries like Nigeria, Chad, United Arab Emirates and Jordan fighting Boko Haram and ISIS as well.

Do they renounce Quran 9:29? If not they're the same as the individuals who won't speak out. The only way here is for the so-called peaceful Muslims to make a clean break with Islam, its violent imperatives, and it's demand for submission (i.e. Islam).

 

[icehorse]

Jumping back to the OP...

If Islam isn't so bad, then is it safe to assume that apostasy is not a crime? If so, then the world's 1.6 billion Muslims are Muslims voluntarily correct? We know from many polls that about half the world's Muslims say their prayers five times a day. So this prayer is spoken out loud - voluntarily - about 4 BILLION times a day, correct?

Roughly translated, the last line of this prayer is "My god is forever angry with the Jews."

I think other religions have a lot of problems as well, but their problems in no way excuse Islam's problems. Islam's problems are Islam's problems. I'd say that reinforcing intolerance so persistently and so massively - in itself - makes Islam pretty bad indeed.

If Muslims don't actually mean the words they are speaking out loud 5 times a day, they should stop saying them. Islam has many other problems, but this is a big one, and it's one Muslims could choose to address.

 

[raph]

Ask any Muslim to deny that Quran 9:29 applies to them.

You know, there are more interpretations to a text then yours. There is only defensive war in Islam, and 9:29 is about a defensive war.

Roughly translated, the last line of this prayer is "My god is forever angry with the Jews."

Which prayer?

 

[icehorse]

You know, there are more interpretations to a text then yours. There is only defensive war in Islam, and 9:29 is about a defensive war.

Which prayer?

The first Surah is usually used as the five times a day prayer.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Jumping back to the OP...

If Islam isn't so bad, then is it safe to assume that apostasy is not a crime? If so, then the world's 1.6 billion Muslims are Muslims voluntarily correct? We know from many polls that about half the world's Muslims say their prayers five times a day. So this prayer is spoken out loud - voluntarily - about 4 BILLION times a day, correct?

Roughly translated, the last line of this prayer is "My god is forever angry with the Jews."

I think other religions have a lot of problems as well, but their problems in no way excuse Islam's problems. Islam's problems are Islam's problems. I'd say that reinforcing intolerance so persistently and so massively - in itself - makes Islam pretty bad indeed.

If Muslims don't actually mean the words they are speaking out loud 5 times a day, they should stop saying them. Islam has many other problems, but this is a big one, and it's one Muslims could choose to address.

It's in the OP but I'll post it here anyway.


"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)

The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?

The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.

So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"

Some countries are influenced by their customs, not their religion. Such as honor killings, stonings, ect, even if the religion doesn't talk about it. Sometimes it's due to their customs, not the religion they practice.

 

[icehorse]

When I read the Quran I did find the "no compulsion" statement. But it was drowned out (and I think abrogated), by a wave of messages advocating for the forceful spread of the faith.

And the 4 billion times a day problem is separate from this issue.

 

[raph]

I know that some muslim scholars will disagree but I find no abrogation in Quran. For example 9:29 seems to abrogate every peace verse, but we can also interpret it with harmony with peace to be about defensive war. (I remember reading in a tafsir that this verse is about a time when Rome was starting a war. But I dont swear on it, maybe I have wrong memory on that one)

The idea behind this, is that the Quran calls itself perfect, and it wouldnt be perfect, if all the peace verses were useless.

There is a verse about abrogation but it can be interpreted in a way that either,

1. GOD abrogated Quran verses that Muhammad revealed but are not in Quran anymore, or
2. It is about Quran abrogating the law of the evangelium

Even though muslims think like christians that the jews are kinda doomed, the first sura doesnt say that. I am on my phone so I dont wanna copy it, but I recall the last verse to be something like that:

Guide us the right path, not the path of people who go astray

 

[icehorse]

Hi raph,

There are many translations of course. The one I read I picked because it's been printed over 260 million times. I think it is a harsher translation than others, but given how many people have read the one I read, I think we have to consider its impact on the world.

In my translation the last two lines read:

6 - Guide us to the Straight Way.
7 - The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Given that Muslims consider the book to be timeless, is it not fair to summarize by saying: "Our god is forever angry at the Jews" ?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I don't know why they would as they refer Jews and Christians as "People of the Book".

 

[icehorse]

I don't know why they would as they refer Jews and Christians as "People of the Book".

I'm just the messenger here...

 

[raph]

Given that Muslims consider the book to be timeless, is it not fair to summarize by saying: "Our god is forever angry at the Jews" ?

The stuff in parentheses is an interpretation and not found in the arabic text. It is probably true, that Allah says somewhere else in the Quran, that he is angry at jews, and that christians have gone astray. It is maybe a valid interpretation. But the point is, that muslims never say the word "jew" or "christians" in the normal prayers. (Sometimes they probably do, because muslims can recite any quran verses in prayers) But most people recite the first sura, and the last short suras, that don't mention jews or christians.
We shouldn't limit the verse "people who earned you anger and people who went astray" to only jews and christians. This verse means much more, it is about any human, who has these qualities. For example, people who earned Allah's anger may aswell be Saddam Hussain. Or people who go astray may aswell be Mormons, bad Khalifs or even Bahais.

I agree with you, that muslims and Islam think that jews and christians have gone astray. It is only natural to say such things, because the whole context is, that God has sent another message, so basically anybody who does not accept it, has gone astray. The christians also think, that jews have gone astray and God is angry at them. The Bahais say, that all three religions, that came before, have gone astray, for not accepting Bahaullah.

But that has nothing to do with tollerance. The quran says, that muslims have to tollerate and respect other religions, because the judgement is Allah's. And the Quran says, that being a good person is not only a matter of believe. God says in the Quran, that christians are good people, and that all people of the book have nothing to fear on the day of judgement. He created different cultures with different believe, because he likes cultural diversity. Allah tollerates jews and christians, who don't want to convert.

 

[icehorse]

Hey raph,

The question of translations is a tricky one. But for the sake of discussion, if I grant that you're correct, it's still the case that any words spoken out loud over and over again represent a form of indoctrination. Those repeated words will be burned into brains. This is just basic neurology. So any prayer, in any religion, that promotes intolerance towards anyone, is a prayer that people should stop saying.

 

[columbus]

And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61

There is a discussion between Metis and Servant of the One that in the Recognize Israel thread that demonstrates to me that Muslims don't believe this. I will have to edit this post to include the exchange because I am not good at internet stuff on this device I am using at the moment.
@metis said


Hopefully, both sides will realize that continued killings is not the answer.
@Servant_of_the_One1 said

Their deads are in paradise insha Allah.

But submission to the enemy is not realistic option.
Either the zionists perish or muslims.
Tom