Being an atheist does not mean I condemn people who practice religion

hornsby · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
Samples are reflective of the areas from where they are taken. From my experience, it's simply not true.

If you did one in my area, with low religiosity, high poverty, and low rates of education, you would find that a large number of non-religious people are also the ones with lower IQs.

And yet at the local church, many people have PhDs, MAs, BAs, and so on.

TRUTH IS:

the vast majority of highly educated religious people were religious FIRST and attained their education and degrees SECOND.

you will be hard pressed to find those who were lead TO religion THROUGH education.....HOWEVER you will find plenty who were lead AWAY from religion THROUGH education.

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

Mestemia said:
Seems to be a trend with his polls.

I cannot help but wonder how accurate his polls are given the obvious bias in the choices.

I agree; though I don't doubt it's a flying visit anyway.

Koldo · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
What would make them atheists?

Knowledge. Just that.
If you live your entire life being told 'God' exists, you may never have the chance to ponder about the other alternative. You may never even give it the benefit of doubt. If you are allowed to expand your boundaries you may have a change of mind. Once you learn what others have to say on subject, you might agree with them.

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

ImmortalFlame said:
But you do understand that if we did that we would have to consider millions upon millions of conflicting experiences. Something is only credible if it has a credible basis, and "personal experience" is not a demonstrably reliable means of determining the truth about reality - at least, definitely not the largest questions of our existence.

Come do one here.

hornsby said:
TRUTH IS:

the vast majority of highly educated religious people were religious FIRST and attained their education and degrees SECOND.

you will be hard pressed to find those who were lead TO religion THROUGH education.....HOWEVER you will find plenty who were lead AWAY from religion THROUGH education.

Not always true; another member on here mentioned this in a thread some time ago. Significantly less people lose their religion in college than we realize.

Define "to religion". In addition, many people enter in through religion because of experiences.

FTR, I was raised irreligious

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

Koldo said:
Knowledge. Just that.
If you live your entire life being told 'God' exists, you may never have the chance to ponder about the other alternative. You may never even give it the benefit of doubt. If you are allowed to expand your boundaries you may have a change of mind. Once you learn what others have to say on subject, you might agree with them.

I wouldn't say that many would become irreligious because of this, though. Of course, it would also apply the other way around.

ImmortalFlame · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
Not always true; another member on here mentioned this in a thread some time ago. Significantly less people lose their religion in college than we realize.

But the question is how many leave religion compared with stay within or adopt religions? As far as I'm aware, there is still a legitimate correlation. Of course, that doesn't mean direct causation between the two, but it is still true that - statistically - the more educated people get the less religious they tend to be on average.

freethinker44 · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
Discarding personal experience simply because it has a different conclusion is as intellectually dishonest as creationism; it should at least be considered.

Nevertheless, I understand your point: though my experience says otherwise, and statistics are less than reliable or even impressive.

People generally tend to seek out people similar to them, which would skew their perception of their demographics. If you are an intelligent theist, frankly I would be surprised if you didn't know many intelligent theists.

WyattDerp · Apr 21, 2013

Non-believer in what? I doubt, therefore I think, I think, therefore I am... but when I think some more, I find out "I" is an illusion, so all I'm left with is that "something knows that something is"... and between that, and the person who manages to get out of bed each morning, are a wide array of beliefs, and they're in constant flux. Even trying to enumerate them would create more, I think. So let's not go there xD

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

ImmortalFlame said:
But the question is how many leave religion compared with stay within or adopt religions? As far as I'm aware, there is still a legitimate correlation. Of course, that doesn't mean direct causation between the two, but it is still true that - statistically - the more educated people get the less religious they tend to be on average.

Indeed, there's not a direct causation - and I take issue with these samplings because of location. If one was done here, I have no doubt it would be different.

freethinker44 said:
People generally tend to seek out people similar to them, which would skew their perception of their demographics. If you are an intelligent theist, frankly I would be surprised if you didn't know many intelligent theists.

I've looked at the local results for demographics, too, thoguh, and we have a significantly higher 'no religion' population than average -- even in the UK.

And the local plebs, Jeez.

ImmortalFlame · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
Indeed, there's not a direct causation

Hold a second, there. You cannot say there isn't causation. There might be, it just has yet to be demonstrated.

Odion said:
and I take issue with these samplings because of location. If one was done here, I have no doubt it would be different.

Again, this is a claim which would require demonstration. Can you give any studies which imply that there is little to no correlation between education and religion?

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

ImmortalFlame said:
Hold a second, there. You cannot say there isn't causation. There might be, it just has yet to be demonstrated.

Alright, then, there isn't a demonstrated. Happy now?

Again, this is a claim which would require demonstration. Can you give any studies which imply that there is little to no correlation between education and religion?

Can give a few links on some things.

The more education people receive, the more religious they become? | Mail Online

Epiphenom: Does education mean more or less religion? It depends on the country

"In Sweden, the UK, Hong Kong and South Korea, educated people tend to be more religious. Meisenberg thinks that this is because religion in these countries (and other cognitively advanced countries) has evolved. In these countries religion variants have been developed that abandons claims about the real world. Instead religion is "assigned to a realm in which rational analysis is either off limits, or is applied to axioms that are not supported by observation and are, in this sense, irrational"."

Epiphenom: Three puzzles of non-religion in Britain
Study: More educated tend to be more religious, by some measures – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
Education and Religion

Etc.

hornsby · Apr 21, 2013

another truth to keep in mind is that these "samplings" are all but useless

because a good chunk, dare i call it a majority of religionists, are only culturally so. in real life they are no more religious than those who are openly NON religious....

additionally there are plenty non religious who will call themselves religious when asked, for a variety of reasons mostly having to do with fear of being ousted by their majority religious communities...

.we see this especially in middleeastern theocracies and countries with high religious populations... point in case the USA and its politicians, many of whom are secular will NEVER admit to it because it is career suicide plain and simple.......

ImmortalFlame · Apr 21, 2013

Odion said:
Alright, then, there isn't a demonstrated. Happy now?

Do you have to be so confrontational about it?

Odion said:
Can give a few links on some things.

The more education people receive, the more religious they become? | Mail Online

The Daily Mail isn't exactly a credible source for... Well, anything, really...

Odion said:
Epiphenom: Does education mean more or less religion? It depends on the country

"In Sweden, the UK, Hong Kong and South Korea, educated people tend to be more religious. Meisenberg thinks that this is because religion in these countries (and other cognitively advanced countries) has evolved. In these countries religion variants have been developed that abandons claims about the real world. Instead religion is "assigned to a realm in which rational analysis is either off limits, or is applied to axioms that are not supported by observation and are, in this sense, irrational"."

Epiphenom: Three puzzles of non-religion in Britain
Study: More educated tend to be more religious, by some measures CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
Education and Religion

Etc.

Even these studies seem to indicate that there's a correlation, just that it's not constant, just an average across denominations and countries.

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

ImmortalFlame said:
Do you have to be so confrontational about it?

Sorry, can't help it. Side-effect of meds I'm on atm.

Tarheeler · Apr 21, 2013

God this place is getting ridiculous....

Breathe · Apr 21, 2013

Tarheeler said:
God this place is getting ridiculous....

That's genuinely the most sensible thing said in the thread, even including my posts.

Caladan · Apr 21, 2013

Well, I may understand that as an atheist who hails from Iranian Islamic heritage you would feel animosity towards religion, especially since atheism is not tolerated in nations such as Iran.
But in other countries a fine line of celebration and preservation exists where both secularism and religion can find their place.
I grew up in a Jewish secular household, my grandparents had strong affinity to Jewish tradition and they had an instrumental part in bringing me up and instilling values in me, I grew up as a secular man, but I inherited their affinity to various aspects of Judaism and the Hebrew Bible. They never shoved religion down my throat, or condemned me in any fashion, in fact their affinity to Judaism was inspiring and was rooted in respect for any human being. In general Israel is the best country in the Middle East to be secular or an atheist in, religious people and secular people still find themselves sharing in the same pool of Jewish heritage.
We have openly gay members of parliament, we study the Hebrew Bible both in religious and secular schools, and all of us no matter if we come from religious or secular homes take part in the initiation rites and celebration of Jewish holidays.
Perhaps in Islam there is no place for pluralism and a certain amount of secularism, but it doesn't mean that other cultures are not up for the challenge.
Religious people are not going to go away. Secular people are not going to go away. They might as well make the best out of it.

kassault37 · Apr 21, 2013

Iranian traditions are not Islamic, they are from ancient Persia, well before the concept of Islam even came to existence. The Persian traditions are Zoroastrian and actually kept to this very day even by Iranian Muslims

Caladan said:
Well, I may understand that as an atheist who hails from Iranian Islamic heritage you would feel animosity towards religion, especially since atheism is not tolerated in nations such as Iran.
But in other countries a fine line of celebration and preservation exists where both secularism and religion can find their place.
I grew up in a Jewish secular household, my grandparents had strong affinity to Jewish tradition and they had an instrumental part in bringing me up and instilling values in me, I grew up as a secular man, but I inherited their affinity to various aspects of Judaism and the Hebrew Bible. They never shoved religion down my throat, or condemned me in any fashion, in fact their affinity to Judaism was inspiring and was rooted in respect for any human being. In general Israel is the best country in the Middle East to be secular or an atheist in, religious people and secular people still find themselves sharing in the same pool of Jewish heritage.
We have openly gay members of parliament, we study the Hebrew Bible both in religious and secular schools, and all of us no matter if we come from religious or secular homes take part in the initiation rites and celebration of Jewish holidays.
Perhaps in Islam there is no place for pluralism and a certain amount of secularism, but it doesn't mean that other cultures are not up for the challenge.
Religious people are not going to go away. Secular people are not going to go away. They might as well make the best out of it.

Caladan · Apr 21, 2013

kassault37 said:
Iranian traditions are not Islamic, they are from ancient Persia, well before the concept of Islam even came to existence. The Persian traditions are Zoroastrian and actually kept to this very day even by Iranian Muslims

Amazingly you are still grasping and technicalities and semantics and not responding to points and posts.
So is there really a reason for your threads? are you ever going to address to the replies people post to your threads?
Maybe Persian traditions are pre-Islamic (and maybe they aren't). But Israeli traditions are Jewish, or rather Jewish traditions are Jewish. Perhaps now you would understand why you are missing the point in your other thread.

LuisDantas · Apr 21, 2013

kassault37 said:
So you created your own religion, good for you. Got it

You would do well to learn about Dharma at some point.

Creating one's own religion (drawing from other sources, of course) is by no means unadvisable, or even unusual.

Being an atheist does not mean I condemn people who practice religion

How do you view atheists, agnostics, & other non-believers?

I am a non-believer myself

I feel like I may slowly become a non-believer myself

I disagree with them, but to each their own

If you don't believe in God, you're going to Hell

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