Is it true the Kabbha was a Hindu temple?

Yes,as i said they were called "Mushriks" which means worshiping other things with Allah. and previously Arabs worshiped Allah alone in Kabbha,and consider ibraheem to be thier father and the builder of kabbha.
And it's in the recorded history and known,that Arabs brought idols to kabbah. first by Amr ibnu liha.

Kaaba a Hindu Temple?
[Note: A recent archeological find in Kuwait unearthed a gold-plated statue of the Hindu deity Ganesh. A Muslim resident of Kuwait requested historical research material that can help explain the connection between Hindu civilisation and Arabia.]


Was the Kaaba Originally a Hindu Temple?
By P.N. Oak (Historian)


Glancing through some research material recently, I was pleasantly surprised to come across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription found in the Kaaba in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire.

The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on page 315 of a volume known as ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in free English the inscription says:

"Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikram’s reign. He was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for her life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in ignorance. The entire country was enveloped in a darkness so intense as on a new moon night. But the present dawn and pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favour of the noble king Vikramaditya whose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us- foreigners as we were. He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whose brilliance shone like that of the sun from his country to ours. These scholars and preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again made cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His sacred existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country to preach their religion and impart education at king Vikramaditya’s behest."

For those who would like to read the Arabic wording I reproduce it hereunder in Roman script:
"Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun Yartapheeha Wayosassaru Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundan blabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi bejehalin Atadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhada walador. As hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana balay kulk amarena phaneya jaunabilamary Bikramatum".
(Page 315 Sayar-ul-okul).

[Note: The title ‘Saya-ul-okul’ signifies memorable words.]




A careful analysis of the above inscription enables us to draw the following conclusions:

1. That the ancient Indian empires may have extended up to the eastern boundaries of Arabia until Vikramaditya and that it was he who for the first time conquered Arabia. Because the inscription says that king Vikram who dispelled the darkness of ignorance from Arabia.
2. That, whatever their earlier faith, King Vikrama’s preachers had succeeded in spreading the Vedic (based on the Vedas, the Hindu sacred scriptures)) way of life in Arabia.
3. That the knowledge of Indian arts and sciences was imparted by Indians to the Arabs directly by founding schools, academies and cultural centres. The belief, therefore, that visiting Arabs conveyed that knowledge to their own lands through their own indefatigable efforts and scholarship is unfounded.

An ancillary conclusion could be that the so-called Kutub Minar (in Delhi, India) could well be king Vikramadiya’s tower commemorating his conquest of Arabia. This conclusion is strengthened by two pointers. Firstly, the inscription on the iron pillar near the so-called Kutub Minar refers to the marriage of the victorious king Vikramaditya to the princess of Balhika. This Balhika is none other than the Balkh region in West Asia. It could be that Arabia was wrestled by king Vikramaditya from the ruler of Balkh who concluded a treaty by giving his daughter in marriage to the victor. Secondly, the township adjoining the so called Kutub Minar is named Mehrauli after Mihira who was the renowned astronomer-mathematician of king Vikram’s court. Mehrauli is the corrupt form of Sanskrit ‘Mihira-Awali’ signifying a row of houses raised for Mihira and his helpers and assistants working on astronomical observations made from the tower.

Having seen the far reaching and history shaking implications of the Arabic inscription concerning king Vikrama, we shall now piece together the story of its find. How it came to be recorded and hung in the Kaaba in Mecca. What are the other proofs reinforcing the belief that Arabs were once followers of the Indian Vedic way of life and that tranquillity and education were ushered into Arabia by king Vikramaditya’s scholars, educationists from an uneasy period of "ignorance and turmoil" mentioned in the inscription.

In Istanbul, Turkey, there is a famous library called Makhatab-e-Sultania, which is reputed to have the largest collection of ancient West Asian literature. In the Arabic section of that library is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. That anthology was compiled from an earlier work in A.D. 1742 under the orders of the Turkish ruler Sultan Salim.

The pages of that volume are of Hareer – a kind of silk used for writing on. Each page has a decorative gilded border. That anthology is known as Sayar-ul-Okul. It is divided into three parts. The first part contains biographic details and the poetic compositions of pre-Islamic Arabian poets. The second part embodies accounts and verses of poets of the period beginning just after prophet Mohammad’s times, up to the end of the Banee-Um-Mayya dynasty. The third part deals with later poets up to the end of Khalif Harun-al-Rashid’s times.

Abu Amir Asamai, an Arabian bard who was the poet Laureate of Harun-al-Rashid’s court, has compiled and edited the anthology.

The first modern edition of ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ was printed and published in Berlin in 1864. A subsequent edition is the one published in Beirut in 1932.

The collection is regarded as the most important and authoritative anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It throws considerable light on the social life, customs, manners and entertainment modes of ancient Arabia. The book also contains an elaborate description of the ancient shrine of Mecca, the town and the annual fair known as OKAJ which used to be held every year around the Kaaba temple in Mecca. This should convince readers that the annual haj of the Muslims to the Kaaba is of earlier pre-Islamic congregation.

But the OKAJ fair was far from a carnival. It provided a forum for the elite and the learned to discuss the social, religious, political, literary and other aspects of the Vedic culture then pervading Arabia. ‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ asserts that the conclusion reached at those discussions were widely respected throughout Arabia. Mecca, therefore, followed the Varanasi tradition (of India) of providing a venue for important discussions among the learned while the masses congregated there for spiritual bliss. The principal shrines at both Varanasi in India and at Mecca in Arvasthan (Arabia) were Siva temples. Even to this day ancient Mahadev (Siva) emblems can be seen. It is the Shankara (Siva) stone that Muslim pilgrims reverently touch and kiss in the Kaaba.

Arabic tradition has lost trace of the founding of the Kaaba temple. The discovery of the Vikramaditya inscription affords a clue. King Vikramaditya is known for his great devotion to Lord Mahadev (Siva). At Ujjain (India), the capital of Vikramaditya, exists the famous shrine of Mahankal, i.e., of Lord Shankara (Siva) associated with Vikramaditya. Since according to the Vikramaditya inscription he spread the Vedic religion, who else but he could have founded the Kaaba temple in Mecca?

A few miles away from Mecca is a big signboard which bars the entry of any non-Muslim into the area. This is a reminder of the days when the Kaaba was stormed and captured solely for the newly established faith of Islam. The object in barring entry of non-Muslims was obviously to prevent its recapture.

As the pilgrim proceeds towards Mecca he is asked to shave his head and beard and to don special sacred attire that consists of two seamless sheets of white cloth. One is to be worn round the waist and the other over the shoulders. Both these rites are remnants of the old Vedic practice of entering Hindu temples clean- and with holy seamless white sheets.

The main shrine in Mecca, which houses the Siva emblem, is known as the Kaaba. It is clothed in a black shroud. That custom also originates from the days when it was thought necessary to discourage its recapture by camouflaging it.

According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Kaaba has 360 images. Traditional accounts mention that one of the deities among the 360 destroyed when the place was stormed, was that of Saturn; another was of the Moon and yet another was one called Allah. That shows that in the Kaaba the Arabs worshipped the nine planets in pre-Islamic days. In India the practice of ‘Navagraha’ puja, that is worship of the nine planets, is still in vogue. Two of these nine are Saturn and Moon.

In India the crescent moon is always painted across the forehead of the Siva symbol. Since that symbol was associated with the Siva emblem in Kaaba it came to be grafted on the flag of Islam.


continue to next post..

Another Hindu tradition associated with the Kaaba is that of the sacred stream Ganga (sacred waters of the Ganges river). According to the Hindu tradition Ganga is also inseparable from the Shiva emblem as the crescent moon. Wherever there is a Siva emblem, Ganga must co-exist. True to that association a sacred fount exists near the Kaaba. Its water is held sacred because it has been traditionally regarded as Ganga since pre-Islamic times (Zam-Zam water).

[Note: Even today, Muslim pilgrims who go to the Kaaba for Haj regard this Zam-Zam water with reverence and take some bottled water with them as sacred water.]

Muslim pilgrims visiting the Kaaba temple go around it seven times. In no other mosque does the circumambulation prevail. Hindus invariably circumambulate around their deities. This is yet another proof that the Kaaba shrine is a pre-Islamic Indian Shiva temple where the Hindu practice of circumambulation is still meticulously observed.

The practice of taking seven steps- known as Saptapadi in Sanskrit- is associated with Hindu marriage ceremony and fire worship. The culminating rite in a Hindu marriage enjoins upon the bride and groom to go round the sacred fire four times (but misunderstood by many as seven times). Since "Makha" means fire, the seven circumambulations also prove that Mecca was the seat of Indian fire-worship in the West Asia.

It might come as a stunning revelation to many that the word ‘ALLAH’ itself is Sanskrit. In Sanskrit language Allah, Akka and Amba are synonyms. They signify a goddess or mother. The term ‘ALLAH’ forms part of Sanskrit chants invoking goddess Durga, also known as Bhavani, Chandi and Mahishasurmardini. The Islamic word for God is., therefore, not an innovation but the ancient Sanskrit appellation retained and continued by Islam. Allah means mother or goddess and mother goddess.

One Koranic verse is an exact translation of a stanza in the Yajurveda. This was pointed out by the great research scholar Pandit Satavlekar of Pardi in one of his articles.

[Note: Another scholar points out that the following teaching from the Koran is exactly similar to the teaching of the Kena Upanishad (1.7).

The Koran:
"Sight perceives Him not. But He perceives men's sights; for He is the knower of secrets, the Aware."
Kena Upanishad:
"That which cannot be seen by the eye but through which the eye itself sees, know That to be Brahman (God) and not what people worship here (in the manifested world)."

A simplified meaning of both the above verses reads:
God is one and that He is beyond man's sensory experience.

The identity of Unani and Ayurvedic systems shows that Unani is just the Arabic term for the Ayurvedic system of healing taught to them and administered in Arabia when Arabia formed part of the Indian empire.

It will now be easy to comprehend the various Hindu customs still prevailing in West Asian countries even after the existence of Islam during the last 1300 years. Let us review some Hindu traditions which exist as the core of Islamic practice.

The Hindus have a pantheon of 33 gods. People in Asia Minor too worshipped 33 gods before the spread of Islam. The lunar calendar was introduced in West Asia during the Indian rule. The Muslim month ‘Safar’ signifying the ‘extra’ month (Adhik Maas) in the Hindu calendar. The Muslim month Rabi is the corrupt form of Ravi meaning the sun because Sanskrit ‘V’ changes into Prakrit ‘B’ (Prakrit being the popular version of Sanskrit language). The Muslim sanctity for Gyrahwi Sharif is nothing but the Hindu Ekadashi (Gyrah = elevan or Gyaarah). Both are identical in meaning.

The Islamic practice of Bakari Eed derives from the Go-Medh and Ashva-Medh Yagnas or sacrifices of Vedic times. Eed in Sanskrit means worship. The Islamic word Eed for festive days, signifying days of worship, is therefore a pure Sanskrit word. The word MESH in the Hindu zodiac signifies a lamb. Since in ancient times the year used to begin with the entry of the sun in Aries, the occasion was celebrated with mutton feasting. That is the origin of the Bakari Eed festival.
[Note: The word Bakari is an Indian language word for a goat.]

Since Eed means worship and Griha means ‘house’, the Islamic word Idgah signifies a ‘House of worship’ which is the exact Sanskrit connotation of the term. Similarly the word ‘Namaz’ derives from two Sanskrit roots ‘Nama’ and ‘Yajna’ (NAMa yAJna) meaning bowing and worshipping.

Vedic descriptions about the moon, the different stellar constellations and the creation of the universe have been incorporated from the Vedas in Koran part 1 chapter 2, stanza 113, 114, 115, and 158, 189, chapter 9, stanza 37 and chapter 10, stanzas 4 to 7.

Recital of the Namaz five times a day owes its origin to the Vedic injunction of Panchmahayagna (five daily worship- Panch-Maha-Yagna) which is part of the daily Vedic ritual prescribed for all individuals.

Muslims are enjoined cleanliness of five parts of the body before commencing prayers. This derives from the Vedic injuction ‘Shareer Shydhyartham Panchanga Nyasah’.

Four months of the year are regarded as very sacred in Islamic custom. The devout are enjoined to abstain from plunder and other evil deeds during that period. This originates in the Chaturmasa i.e., the four-month period of special vows and austerities in Hindu tradition. Shabibarat is the corrupt form of Shiva Vrat and Shiva Ratra. Since the Kaaba has been an important centre of Shiva (Siva) worship from times immemorial, the Shivaratri festival used to be celebrated there with great gusto. It is that festival which is signified by the Islamic word Shabibarat.
Encyclopaedias tell us that there are inscriptions on the side of the Kaaba walls. What they are, no body has been allowed to study, according to the correspondence I had with an American scholar of Arabic. But according to hearsay at least some of those inscriptions are in Sanskrit, and some of them are stanzas from the Bhagavad Gita.

According to extant Islamic records, Indian merchants had settled in Arabia, particularly in Yemen, and their life and manners deeply influenced those who came in touch with them. At Ubla there was a large number of Indian settlements. This shows that Indians were in Arabia and Yemen in sufficient strength and commanding position to be able to influence the local people. This could not be possible unless they belonged to the ruling class.

It is mentioned in the Abadis i.e., the authentic traditions of Prophet Mohammad compiled by Imam Bukhari that the Indian tribe of Jats had settled in Arabia before Prophet Mohammad’s times. Once when Hazrat Ayesha, wife of the Prophet, was taken ill, her nephew sent for a Jat physician for her treatment. This proves that Indians enjoyed a high and esteemed status in Arabia. Such a status could not be theirs unless they were the rulers. Bukhari also tells us that an Indian Raja (king) sent a jar of ginger pickles to the Prophet. This shows that the Indian Jat Raja ruled an adjacent area so as to be in a position to send such an insignificant present as ginger pickles. The Prophet is said to have so highly relished it as to have told his colleagues also to partake of it. These references show that even during Prophet Mohammad’s times Indians retained their influential role in Arabia, which was a dwindling legacy from Vikramaditya’s times.

The Islamic term ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ derives from the ‘Eed of Piters’ that is worship of forefathers in Sanskrit tradition. In India, Hindus commemorate their ancestors during the Pitr-Paksha that is the fortnight reserved for their remembrance. The very same is the significance of ‘Eed-ul-Fitr’ (worship of forefathers).
The Islamic practice of observing the moon rise before deciding on celebrating the occasion derives from the Hindu custom of breaking fast on Sankranti and Vinayaki Chaturthi only after sighting the moon.

Barah Vafat, the Muslim festival for commemorating those dead in battle or by weapons, derives from a similar Sanskrit tradition because in Sanskrit ‘Phiphaut’ is ‘death’. Hindus observe Chayal Chaturdashi in memory of those who have died in battle.

The word Arabia is itself the abbreviation of a Sanskrit word. The original word is ‘Arabasthan’. Since Prakrit ‘B’ is Sanskrit ‘V’ the original Sanskrit name of the land is ‘Arvasthan’. ‘Arva’ in Sanskrit means a horse. Arvasthan signifies a land of horses., and as well all know, Arabia is famous for its horses.

This discovery changes the entire complexion of the history of ancient India. Firstly we may have to revise our concepts about the king who had the largest empire in history. It could be that the expanse of king Vikramaditya’s empire was greater than that of all others. Secondly, the idea that the Indian empire spread only to the east and not in the west beyond say, Afghanisthan may have to be abandoned. Thirdly the effeminate and pathetic belief that India, unlike any other country in the world could by some age spread her benign and beatific cultural influence, language, customs, manners and education over distant lands without militarily conquering them is baseless. India did conquer all those countries physically wherever traces of its culture and language are still extant and the region extended from Bali island in the south Pacific to the Baltic in Northern Europe and from Korea to Kaaba. The only difference was that while Indian rulers identified themselves with the local population and established welfare states, Moghuls and others who ruled conquered lands perpetuated untold atrocities over the vanquished.

continue to next post

‘Sayar-ul-Okul’ tells us that a pan-Arabic poetic symposium used to be held in Mecca at the annual Okaj fair in pre-Islamic times. All leading poets used to participate in it.

Poems considered best were awarded prizes. The best-engraved on gold plate were hung inside the temple. Others etched on camel or goatskin were hung outside. Thus for thousands of years the Kaaba was the treasure house of the best Arabian poetic thought inspired by the Indian Vedic tradition.

That tradition being of immemorial antiquity many poetic compositions were engraved and hung inside and outside on the walls of the Kaaba. But most of the poems got lost and destroyed during the storming of the Kaaba by Prophet Mohammad’s troops. The Prophet’s court poet, Hassan-bin-Sawik, who was among the invaders, captured some of the treasured poems and dumped the gold plate on which they were inscribed in his own home. Sawik’s grandson, hoping to earn a reward carried those gold plates to Khalif’s court where he met the well-known Arab scholar Abu Amir Asamai. The latter received from the bearer five gold plates and 16 leather sheets with the prize-winning poems engraved on them. The bearer was sent away happy bestowed with a good reward.

On the five gold plates were inscribed verses by ancient Arab poets like Labi Baynay, Akhatab-bin-Turfa and Jarrham Bintoi. That discovery made Harun-al-Rashid order Abu Amir to compile a collection of all earlier compositions. One of the compositions in the collection is a tribute in verse paid by Jarrham Bintoi, a renowned Arab poet, to king Vikramaditya. Bintoi who lived 165 years before Prophet Mohammad had received the highest award for the best poetic compositions for three years in succession in the pan-Arabic symposiums held in Mecca every year. All those three poems of Bintoi adjudged best were hung inside the Kaaba temple, inscribed on gold plates. One of these constituted an unreserved tribute to King Vikramaditya for his paternal and filial rule over Arabia. That has already been quoted above.
Pre-Islamic Arabian poet Bintoi’s tribute to king Vikramaditya is a decisive evidence that it was king Vikramaditya who first conquered the Arabian Peninsula and made it a part of the Indian Empire. This explains why starting from India towards the west we have all Sanskrit names like Afghanisthan (now Afghanistan), Baluchisthan, Kurdisthan, Tajikiathan, Uzbekisthan, Iran, Sivisthan, Iraq, Arvasthan, Turkesthan (Turkmenisthan) etc.

Historians have blundered in not giving due weight to the evidence provided by Sanskrit names pervading over the entire west Asian region. Let us take a contemporary instance. Why did a part of India get named Nagaland even after the end of British rule over India? After all historical traces are wiped out of human memory, will a future age historian be wrong if he concludes from the name Nagaland that the British or some English speaking power must have ruled over India? Why is Portuguese spoken in Goa (part of India), and French in Pondichery (part of India), and both French and English in Canada? Is it not because those people ruled over the territories where their languages are spoken? Can we not then justly conclude that wherever traces of Sanskrit names and traditions exist Indians once held sway? It is unfortunate that this important piece of decisive evidence has been ignored all these centuries.

Another question which should have presented itself to historians for consideration is how could it be that Indian empires could extend in the east as far as Korea and Japan, while not being able to make headway beyond Afghanisthan? In fact land campaigns are much easier to conduct than by sea. It was the Indians who ruled the entire West Asian region from Karachi to Hedjaz and who gave Sanskrit names to those lands and the towns therein, introduce their pantheon of the fire-worship, imparted education and established law and order.

It may be that Arabia itself was not part of the Indian empire until king Vikrama , since Bintoi says that it was king Vikrama who for the first time brought about a radical change in the social, cultural and political life of Arabia. It may be that the whole of West Asia except Arabia was under Indian rule before Vikrama. The latter added Arabia too to the Indian Empire. Or as a remote possibility it could be that king Vikramaditya himself conducted a series of brilliant campaigns annexing to his empire the vast region between Afghanisthan and Hedjaz.

Incidentally this also explains why king Vikramaditya is so famous in history. Apart from the nobility and truthfulness of heart and his impartial filial affection for all his subjects, whether Indian or Arab, as testified by Bintoi, king Vikramaditya has been permanently enshrined in the pages of history because he was the world’s greatest ruler having the largest empire. It should be remembered that only a monarch with a vast empire gets famous in world history. Vikram Samvat (calendar still widely in use in India today) which he initiated over 2000 years ago may well mark his victory over Arabia, and the so called Kutub Minar (Kutub Tower in Delhi), a pillar commemorating that victory and the consequential marriage with the Vaihika (Balkh) princess as testified by the nearby iron pillar inscription.

A great many puzzles of ancient world history get automatically solved by a proper understanding of these great conquests of king Vikramaditya. As recorded by the Arab poet Bintoi, Indian scholars, preachers and social workers spread the fire-worship ceremony, preached the Vedic way of life, manned schools, set up Ayurvedic (healing) centres, trained the local people in irrigation and agriculture and established in those regions a democratic, orderly, peaceful, enlightened and religious way of life. That was of course, a Vedic Hindu way of life.

It is from such ancient times that Indian Kshtriya royal families, like the Pahalvis and Barmaks, have held sway over Iran and Iraq. It is those conquests, which made the Parsees Agnihotris i.e., fire-worshippers. It is therefore that we find the Kurds of Kurdisthan speaking a Sanskritised dialect, fire temples existing thousands of miles away from India, and scores of sites of ancient Indian cultural centres like Navbahar in West Asia and the numerous viharas in Soviet Russia spread throughout the world. Ever since so many viharas are often dug up in Soviet Russia, ancient Indian sculptures are also found in excavations in Central Asia. The same goes for West Asia.

[Note: Ancient Indian sculptures include metal statues of the Hindu deity Ganesh (the elephant headed god); the most recent find being in Kuwait].
Unfortunately these chapters of world history have been almost obliterated from public memory. They need to be carefully deciphered and rewritten. When these chapters are rewritten they might change the entire concept and orientation of ancient history.

In view of the overwhelming evidence led above, historians, scholars, students of history and lay men alike should take note that they had better revise their text books of ancient world history. The existence of Hindu customs, shrines, Sanskrit names of whole regions, countries and towns and the Vikramaditya inscriptions reproduced at the beginning are a thumping proof that Indian Kshatriyas once ruled over the vast region from Bali to Baltic and Korea to Kaaba in Mecca, Arabia at the very least.

I have a question for the muslims here. I have heard from soe of my muslim friends who went for Hajj that within some distance of Kabba, the muslims wear white clothes after a bath and they do not eat meat. Only after completing the circumbulatio, they then sacrifice the animal and eat meat. Is this true?

Regards,

Satsangi said:

I have a question for the muslims here. I have heard from soe of my muslim friends who went for Hajj that within some distance of Kabba, the muslims wear white clothes after a bath and they do not eat meat. Only after completing the circumbulatio, they then sacrifice the animal and eat meat. Is this true?

Regards,

Click to expand...

They wear that white clothes, yeah, but they can eat meat anytime they want.

TashaN said:

They wear that white clothes, yeah, but they can eat meat anytime they want.

Click to expand...

Well, my two muslim friends who went on the Hajj 2 years ago told me that they do not eat meat/sacrifice animals within some distance of the Kabba. After the Hajj, they sacrifice the animal and then eat meat. But, since you are a muslim too, and since I do not have any first hand knowledge or information about this, I will recheck with my friends- one of them is very knowledgeble in Koran, devout and also gives lectures at a local mosque.

Regards,

Shine_0f_sun said:

Its false. kabba was created by Prophet Abraham(Pbuh) and His Firstborn Son Ishmael(Pbuh) but after few generation original Abrahamic faith was lost. So, they were turned to idols. They had totally 360 idols in Kabba but Prophet Muhammad(Pbuh) destroyed all idols by his own hands.

"Behold! WE gave the site, To Abraham, of the (sacred) Hourse(i.e Kabba), Saying: 'Associate not anything in worship with Me, and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therien in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: They will come to thee on foot and mounted on every kind of camel, lean on account of Journeys through deep and distant mountain highways" [Quran, 22:26-27]

"And they set up idols as equal to God, to mislead men from path! Say: "Enjoy (your belief power)! BUT VERILY YE ARE MAKING STRAIGHTWAY FOR HELL!" [Quran, 14:30]

"Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to God, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true Faith? For God did take Abraham for a friend" [Quran 4:125]

Click to expand...

Nonsense, the only connection between Abraham and Arabs is Ishmael, his son from Hagar. Stories such as Abraham building an altar for sacrifice and such have nothing to do with mecca or Arabs. It is copied information by Muhammad to suite his needs.

Satsangi said:

Well, my two muslim friends who went on the Hajj 2 years ago told me that they do not eat meat/sacrifice animals within some distance of the Kabba. After the Hajj, they sacrifice the animal and then eat meat. But, since you are a muslim too, and since I do not have any first hand knowledge or information about this, I will recheck with my friends- one of them is very knowledgeble in Koran, devout and also gives lectures at a local mosque.

Regards,

Click to expand...

Maybe i misunderstood you the first time. It's true that the sacrafice will be by the end of the hajj, but there is nothing wrong with eating meat before that from any resturant for instance. It's the sacrafice that matter, not eating meat or not.

Shrine for the moon god? What!?

The Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael (peace be upon them). All the messengers of God thought us to worship only one God. Men commit terrible crimes by altering this concept and worshiping stone and claiming that God has sons!

Sons of god? Islam teaches that God does not beget nor is he begotten.

Claiming that God has a son is a monstrous lie that men attribute to God. Giving birth is an animal trait. And what God has a wife? These are ridiculous claims.

How can God the creator of the universe and all that is in it who is the sustainer, the cherisher , the first who is the uncreated become the created. He creates and all that he creates are his creations and slaves.

Sumerian temple?? Where are these sources coming from? Hubal , Lat , Uzza were all man made creations.

I kindly ask you to do some research on the Qu'ran. We believe the Qu'ran are the worlds of God revealed to his messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) . May you find the truth from genuinely studying Islam.

Truthshallprevail said:

Shrine for the moon god? What!?

The Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael (peace be upon them). All the messengers of God thought us to worship only one God. Men commit terrible crimes by altering this concept and worshiping stone and claiming that God has sons!

Sons of god? Islam teaches that God does not beget nor is he begotten.

Claiming that God has a son is a monstrous lie that men attribute to God. Giving birth is an animal trait. And what God has a wife? These are ridiculous claims.

How can God the creator of the universe and all that is in it who is the sustainer, the cherisher , the first who is the uncreated become the created. He creates and all that he creates are his creations and slaves.

Sumerian temple?? Where are these sources coming from? Hubal , Lat , Uzza were all man made creations.

I kindly ask you to do some research on the Qu'ran. We believe the Qu'ran are the worlds of God revealed to his messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) . May you find the truth from genuinely studying Islam.

Click to expand...

maybe you do research on Torah and see the truth for your self that Torah mentioned all that prior to Muhammad but only you think it is corrupted even thought it is the opposite.

Hi Zenzero and K.Venugopal,
Thank you for your replies.

While it may seem that your comments with Zenzero to be complimentary , they don't seem rather aligned.K.Venugopal was contracting in his last sentence slightly. Being loyal to Allah is based on the belief system of 'man - creator' relationship . Allah means God in Arabic. Hence, arguing on this point would be rather fruitless in this forum. But since you mentioned ,let me clear it so that we do not confuse the readers. The differences in general between our beliefs are:

In the theocentric view at its highest, the Ultimate Reality is supra-cosmic, personal and divine. It is ‘Being’. It is God. It is the fountain-head of the highest values and ideals. It reveals itself in the Cosmic Order, which is its creation. Man is ‘from God and for God’. He is the pilgrim of eternity with his source of existence and capabilities in the Ultimate Reality, whose Grace he should seek. His function is to promote harmony with the Ultimate Reality through worship, in order to acquire perfection adequate to his nature. This is the view of Islam , Christianity and Judaism.( and some school of thoughts in Hinduism)

In the anthropocentric view at its highest, the Ultimate Reality is intra-cosmic and impersonal. It is ‘Becoming’. It is immanent in the Cosmic Order, which consists of the ‘natural’ and the ‘supra-natural’. Man is the child of the cosmos. The ‘supra-natural’ element in him is the source of his power. His function is to renounce the ‘natural’, which is evil. His ideal is to efface his personality for attaining freedom from the bondage of the ‘natural’. His outlook is negative, because salvation lies through Renunciation. His worship bears reference to ascetic exercises and magical concepts. His ethics is the ethics of asceticism. His goal is the submergence of his personality in that Impersonal Reality.(Buddhism, Jainism and Confucianism)

We have distinguished the theocentric from the anthropocentric attitudes to Reality.

It is clear that esoteric Buddhism as well as Marxian Communism recognizes no god in the Christian sense. But Buddhism teaches that Nirvana is the supreme good and that the constitution of things—the view of Karma and ultimate illusoriness of existence—permits Nirvana to be attained. Buddhism is thus a religion in its conjoining of a heirarchy of values with a cosmology; and it can even be said to have its god, if by ‘god’ is meant the saving grace of man’s total environment”

Hinduism is popularly believed to be a consolidated religion and, as such, the oldest among the important religions of the world. Actually, what passes under the name of Hinduism is a collection of different systems of religion, and of different philosophies and mythologies, with a strong colouring of the human element in the historical experiences of Asiatic section of the Aryan race. As such, it is a hybrid melange. At best, it is the record of a rich civilisation of the past—a civilisation that had many elements of merit and many deficiencies and even ugly aspects. An earnest student does find there some profound philosophical discussions, which at times shoot off into the fervour of pure Monotheism—thereby confirming the Quranic stand as to the advent among the Aryans of Divine Messengers the light of whose Message glimmers today, even as in the case of the Messengers whom Judaism and Christianity mention, only through the mists of later distortions. And he finds certain noble moral concepts and words of wisdom and sciences like the science of Yoga. But, he also finds that, unfortunately, humanity cannot benefit from all that any more than it can benefit from the achievements of the philosophers, the psychologists and the spiritualists of other ancient and modern communities, with all the respective differences in outlooks and statures notwithstanding; because: firstly, nothing in Hinduism has any divine sanction, and consequently no seeker of God—quest for God being the very essence of a spiritual religion—can place himself under the control of the subjective findings of the Hindu philosophers and sages (which is the highest that Hinduism can offer); and, secondly, all that which may be regarded as worthy of appreciation in any sense is mixed up with an overwhelming and dominating mass of puerile beliefs, ugly practices and inhuman social concepts; and it is impossible for even the most radical among the reformers (who have been appearing since the impact initially of Islam and later on of Modern Thought) to purge Hinduism of all objectionable elements in the name of Hinduism itself without creating a new man-made religion. Moreover, unlike Christianity which has the Bible, and unlike Islam which has the Qur’an, Hinduism has no single consolidated scripture.

The renowned Hindu scholar and leader, Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru says (The Discovery of India, p. 37): “Hinduism as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other.”

And just to shed some light on the Quran:
Role of the Quran as the book of guidiance:
The Quran came:
-to obliterate all anthropomorphic notions about God and to establish perfect Monotheism ;not merely as a theological concept but as a full-fledged philosophy of life;
-to inculcate the establishment and maintenance of a living and dynamic relation with God in order that human beings may attain the highest spiritual and moral refinement and
greatness;
-to teach the truth that human beings are basically theomorphic beings—emphasizing the ‘ascent of Man to God’ as opposed to the ‘descent of God in Man’,—and that
the goal of every human being is the actualization of his or her potential vicegerency of God through the imitation of Divine Attributes;
-to give to Woman her rightful place in Society, as basically the equal of Man;
-to resolve the dichotomy;
of Faith and Reason;
of Religion and Science
of Love and Law
of Beauty and Simplicity
of Participation in godliness and Participation in worldly
life;
-to establish in the domain of the philosophy of Religion, the positive concept of Fulfillment in place of the universally prevalent negative concept of Salvation;
-to extricate Religion from superstitions;
-to distinguish Spirituality from Mysticism and Psychicism;
-to give a comprehensive Philosophy of Integration, based on
-the teaching of Unity-ism, thereby providing sure basis for
-to provide the Golden Mean between the extremist philosophies of Monopoly Capitalism and Communism;
-to open the avenues and provide Guidance for human progress in all healthy directions in general;
-to close the doors on all those perversions in religious and non-religious thought which go to make Religion an opiate and the Secularistic Philosophies atheistic and immoral;
and to confer on Humanity many other Blessings, besides.
For that, the Qur’ân gave :
a well-co ordinated System of Belief,
a fully-integrated Philosophy, and
a comprehensive Code of Practice.

Absolute authenticity in respect of the purity of its text forms the Holy Qur’an's distinctive claim—a claim in which it stands unique among all the sacred books of the world: those based on the concept of Divine Revelation and others that are not.

It may be observed here in passing that it is not only the so-called ‘revealed’ religions but also the ‘unrevealed’ ones that suffer from inauthenticity with regard to their sacred texts. Although our present discussion does not directly relate to unrevealed religions owing to their different basis, we may with advantage refer to one such major religion, namely, Buddhism, to reveal the situation on that side(& Hinduism).To quote just one authority: “The truth is that the oldest stratum of the existing scriptures (of Buddhism) can only be reached by uncertain inference and conjecture… I confess that I do not know what the ‘original gospel’ of Buddhism was … Buddhism is a body of traditions in which few names stand out, and in which fewer dates are precisely known. It is indeed most exasperating when we try to apply our current ideas of historical criticism.(Edward Conze: Buddhism, its Essence and Development, pp. 27, 29-30)

To revert to the scriptures which claim to be revealed, the following verdict of an English scholar is final: “The truth of the message is intimately connected with the authenticity of the record, and a critical theory which assails the one assails the other.”(The Church Times, February 10, 1905)

Phew, that was a long one. Peace be unto you.

Truthshallprevail said:

Hinduism is popularly believed to be a consolidated religion and, as such, the oldest among the important religions of the world. Actually, what passes under the name of Hinduism is a collection of different systems of religion, and of different philosophies and mythologies, with a strong colouring of the human element in the historical experiences of Asiatic section of the Aryan race. As such, it is a hybrid melange. At best, it is the record of a rich civilisation of the past—a civilisation that had many elements of merit and many deficiencies and even ugly aspects. An earnest student does find there some profound philosophical discussions, which at times shoot off into the fervour of pure Monotheism—

Click to expand...

I think no where in Hinduism is there anything like “pure Monotheism” as understood by Islam, where God is a stand alone product. In Hinduism, all Gods acknowledge they are part and parcel of existence.

Truthshallprevail said:

thereby confirming the Quranic stand as to the advent among the Aryans of Divine Messengers the light of whose Message glimmers today, even as in the case of the Messengers whom Judaism and Christianity mention, only through the mists of later distortions.

Click to expand...

Very condescending to consider other religions as distorted while one’s own religion is pure and pristine – never mind that this pure and pristine is exceedingly limited in its embracing of the possibilities of human existence.

Truthshallprevail said:

And he finds certain noble moral concepts and words of wisdom and sciences like the science of Yoga. But, he also finds that, unfortunately, humanity cannot benefit from all that any more than it can benefit from the achievements of the philosophers, the psychologists and the spiritualists of other ancient and modern communities, with all the respective differences in outlooks and statures notwithstanding;

Click to expand...

Beneficiaries would be best positioned to exclaim the benefits of a religion or system and not those who are already predisposed against that religion or system.

Truthshallprevail said:

because: firstly, nothing in Hinduism has any divine sanction,

Click to expand...

ha ha ha

Truthshallprevail said:

and consequently no seeker of God—quest for God being the very essence of a spiritual religion—can place himself under the control of the subjective findings of the Hindu philosophers and sages (which is the highest that Hinduism can offer);

Click to expand...

I did not understand this aspect of your conclusion

Truthshallprevail said:

and, secondly, all that which may be regarded as worthy of appreciation in any sense is mixed up with an overwhelming and dominating mass of puerile beliefs, ugly practices and inhuman social concepts; and it is impossible for even the most radical among the reformers (who have been appearing since the impact initially of Islam and later on of Modern Thought)

Click to expand...

Whether something is puerile and ugly is a subjective conclusion and such derogatory terms can be applied to any religion by those not favourably predisposed to it. About inhuman social concepts, often the source is not due to religion but due to no religion.

Truthshallprevail said:

to purge Hinduism of all objectionable elements in the name of Hinduism itself without creating a new man-made religion. Moreover, unlike Christianity which has the Bible, and unlike Islam which has the Qur’an, Hinduism has no single consolidated scripture.

Click to expand...

Hinduism does not go by scriptures alone. Verily, we are not a people of the book!

Truthshallprevail said:

The renowned Hindu scholar and leader, Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru says (The Discovery of India, p. 37): “Hinduism as a faith is vague, amorphous, many sided, all things to all men. It is hardly possible to define it, or indeed to say definitely whether it is religion or not, in the usual sense of the word. In its present form, and even in the past, it embraces many beliefs and practices, from the highest to the lowest, often opposed to or contradicting each other.”

Click to expand...

Nehru was simply saying that Hinduism is not something you can confine to any particular definition. You can’t straitjacket it behind the covers of a single book and say Hinduism shall be guided by this book and not the other way round – that scriptures after scriptures are guided into existence by the living dynamism that has ever been Hinduism.

Truthshallprevail said:

Role of the Quran as the book of guidiance: The Quran came:

Click to expand...

Truthshallprevail said:

-to obliterate all anthropomorphic notions about God and to establish perfect Monotheism not merely as a theological concept but as a full-fledged philosophy of life;

Click to expand...

Probably it is more correct to say that it came to obliterate anthropomorphic notions of other religions and replace it with its own anthropomorphic notion of Allah, the Beneficent One who sits on His throne and reigns the world and would later on keep rivers of pleasure and pits of fire going eternally to reward and punish for His own merriment.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to inculcate the establishment and maintenance of a living and dynamic relation with God in order that human beings may attain the highest spiritual and moral refinement and greatness;

Click to expand...

I do not think Islam inculcates the highest spiritual and moral refinement. If it did, it would have considered vegetarianism, for example, as an advance in moral thoughts and acceptance of many paths to God as an advance in spiritual thought.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to teach the truth that human beings are basically theomorphic beings—emphasizing the ‘ascent of Man to God’ as opposed to the ‘descent of God in Man’,—and that the goal of every human being is the actualization of his or her potential vicegerency of God through the imitation of Divine Attributes;

Click to expand...

Does Islam really have this concept of “ascent of Man to God”. Your positing that Islam does is probably making you liable to shirk, the punishment for which, as you know, is most severe.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to give to Woman her rightful place in Society, as basically the equal of Man;

Click to expand...

Within a burqa, if I may say so.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to resolve the dichotomy;

Click to expand...

Truthshallprevail said:

of Faith and Reason;
of Religion and Science
of Love and Law
of Beauty and Simplicity
of Participation in godliness and Participation in worldly
life;

Click to expand...

There is no dichotomy seen here by Hinduism. Hinduism says all dichotomies are caused by a fragmented mind and regaining the heritage of a wholesome mind is at the core of Hinduism’s teaching. In other words, the problem is not outside us but in our mind.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to establish in the domain of the philosophy of Religion, the positive concept of Fulfillment in place of the universally prevalent negative concept of Salvation;

Click to expand...

Anything that is different from Islamic worship is considered negative concept - very convenient.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to extricate Religion from superstitions;

Click to expand...

That Allah created the world could itself be a superstition.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to distinguish Spirituality from Mysticism and Psychicism;

Click to expand...

Hinduism does not believe they are separate but different aspects of one goal.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to give a comprehensive Philosophy of Integration, based on

Click to expand...

Truthshallprevail said:

-the teaching of Unity-ism, thereby providing sure basis for

Click to expand...

Islamic unity is only the unity of believers.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to provide the Golden Mean between the extremist philosophies of Monopoly Capitalism and Communism;

Click to expand...

Good luck to Islam.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to open the avenues and provide Guidance for human progress in all healthy directions in general;

Click to expand...

Islam is by its very structure is uni-directional.

Truthshallprevail said:

-to close the doors on all those perversions in religious and non-religious thought which go to make Religion an opiate and the Secularistic Philosophies atheistic and immoral;

Click to expand...

Why should atheism be considered immoral?

Truthshallprevail said:

and to confer on Humanity many other Blessings, besides.

Click to expand...

Blessings have come to humanity over the ages from many sources and Islam would be just one of them.

Truthshallprevail said:

For that, the Qur’ân gave :

Click to expand...

Truthshallprevail said:

a well-co ordinated System of Belief,

Click to expand...

In Islam there is no choice of believe, is there?

Truthshallprevail said:

a fully-integrated Philosophy, and

Click to expand...

Truthshallprevail said:

a comprehensive Code of Practice.

Click to expand...

Fully integrated philosophies and comprehensive codes of practice, fortunately, have been aplenty in the world and mercifully have never been reduced to the philosophy and code of a single book. Which is why the modern world has turned out to be so different from the world of Mohammad. Otherwise, probably time would have stood still.

Truthshallprevail said:

Absolute authenticity in respect of the purity of its text forms the Holy Qur’an's distinctive claim—a claim in which it stands unique among all the sacred books of the world: those based on the concept of Divine Revelation and others that are not. It may be observed here in passing that it is not only the so-called ‘revealed’ religions but also the ‘unrevealed’ ones that suffer from inauthenticity with regard to their sacred texts. Although our present discussion does not directly relate to unrevealed religions owing to their different basis, we may with advantage refer to one such major religion, namely, Buddhism, to reveal the situation on that side(& Hinduism).To quote just one authority: “The truth is that the oldest stratum of the existing scriptures (of Buddhism) can only be reached by uncertain inference and conjecture… I confess that I do not know what the ‘original gospel’ of Buddhism was … Buddhism is a body of traditions in which few names stand out, and in which fewer dates are precisely known. It is indeed most exasperating when we try to apply our current ideas of historical criticism.(Edward Conze: Buddhism, its Essence and Development, pp. 27, 29-30). To revert to the scriptures which claim to be revealed, the following verdict of an English scholar is final: “The truth of the message is intimately connected with the authenticity of the record, and a critical theory which assails the one assails the other.”(The Church Times, February 10, 1905)

Click to expand...

I am not qualified to talk on this aspect authoritatively but to the best of my understanding Bhagwad Gita, for example, has been in existence for a period longer than the existence of the Quran. The present form of the Gita that is extant has itself been extant in the exact form for at least a period that is longer that the existence of the Quran. If there are scholars who say that there has been interpolations in the Gita, they are referring to a period exceedingly remote in history. However, what is extant today has come down intact for a period longer than the Quran. The same can be said about large portions of the Vedas. There are already Muslim schools who now say that at least two verses of the Quran are interpolated. [Not to speak of theories of Satanic verses.] So, as time goes on, Quran’s authenticity and purity of its texts may get dimmed, as everything does in the vagaries of time. After all, the scriptures sent down by Allah Himself required replacement till the arrival of the Quran and who knows what the fate of the Quran would be thousands of years from now, never mind Allah’s promise to keep it intact?

Truthshallprevail said:

Phew, that was a long one. Peace be unto you.

Click to expand...

Peace be upon you too.

Truthshallprevail said:

Being loyal to Allah is based on the belief system of 'man - creator' relationship . Allah means God in Arabic. Hence, arguing on this point would be rather fruitless in this forum.

Click to expand...

i think you being a muslim have no idea about the phrase 'la ilaha illallah', meaning there is no god but allah. If allah is god in arabic, then the phrase would become there is no god but god. Also there is another different 100 names for allah. Islam prohibites idol worship, at the same time islam is not matured enough to notice the same fault within. Additionally there exists many practices in islam which makes use of idols, like stoning satan rock.