I don't think it matters what we believe.

stephenw said:

Kind of.
I'm saying that I think our conscious minds are only really of any consequence to themselves and are not who or what we are.
I think that what we think we believe is a product of that conscious mind and as such while entertaining, is essentially trivial. I think that how we behave is what is important because that comes from the depths.

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I think I disagree with you, our behavior is always an outpicturing of our belief's.

you can walk, move and act through it all and not believe (or disbelieve) any of it.

Then it's all just more of an "experience" from a place of open observation/inter-action,
where anything might happen! and it always does.

Of course some things that you believe matter.

Do you believe in human rights?
Democracy?
The rule of law?

Do you believe Iraq has WMD?
Do you believe water-boarding is torture?

Do you believe your neighbor is a witch, and she cursed the crops?
Do you believe torture in this life could save a Jew from spending eternity in Hell in the next life, when he is condemned by Christ?

Mr Spinkles said:

Of course some things that you believe matter.

Do you believe in human rights?
Democracy?
The rule of law?

Do you believe Iraq has WMD?
Do you believe water-boarding is torture?

Do you believe your neighbor is a witch, and she cursed the crops?
Do you believe torture in this life could save a Jew from spending eternity in Hell in the next life, when he is condemned by Christ?

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My belief don't matter a jot regarding any of the items you list. My actions regarding them do.
Belief in human rights will achieve nothing. Speaking up for human rights might.

stephenw said:

What do you think?
I feel easier with myself because my belief satisfies my conscious mind. But I don't think it really matters what I think I believe.
Sometimes I feel at one with things, surfing or climbing were great sources of that feeling for me. Bikes too. Sometimes I feel it outside in the early morning - something inside aligns with the universe and everything is just so. But somehow I disappear from the frame. The need of my conscious mind to put a rationale around this has led me to religion and I find the Baha'i faith suits me well.
But I don't think one needs to believe to experience this. Indeed I imagine many atheists have feelings much like I describe mine but their consciousness doesn't need God. It doesn't mean that either position is correct. It just means that our consciousnesses are regarding things from different angles.
I think whoever or whatever I am exists at a level beneath my conscious mind. That what normally passes for my consciousness is just the surface of the mind ocean and is only of any importance to itself.
The important stuff is in the depths of my being. In my longings and in my dreams. What I think I believe is merely the most surface of dressings. What I do is what is important and that is rooted in the depths.

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poetic as usual

imo belief is a some kind of language. i mean, like science. physics could explain your walk on the mountain with numbers, formulas, angles..etc. or a beautiful flower you smell could be explained by chemistry and biology. anything on this planet could be explained by some specific language. as in music. you might enjoy a nice song, the same song could be written on paper with notes. imo beliefs are not different. beliefs are your inner world in words. does not matter if you express yourself or not. your beliefs are there until you put them in words. it is the same inner world that lets you enjoy nature. there are people who can not see that beauty. they have eyes but they are still blind.

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.lava said:

your beliefs are there until you put them in words. it is the same inner world that lets you enjoy nature. there are people who can not see that beauty. they have eyes but they are still blind.

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The same can be said of all people who carry preconceived beliefs and miss or are ignorant of the nature of the phenomenas in their life and in life at large.
to some people, certain structures in nature are proof of a God, while to other people that seems like an unsophisticated and not well explored answer. people can enjoy the wonders of life without the need to apply a god, they may take it a step further and explore the meaning behind the structures they see, and perpahs out of inner integrity they avoid being satisfied with beliefs.
naturally there will always be those who will say the others are blind.
but the fact of the matter is that they have no experience of what the other person is seeing nor can they prove that their beliefs are an absolute truth, at the end of the day beliefs are subjective. people must have the humility and realise that the option that their personal beliefs are completely off base is always there.
history is a testament to that, science has made countless of religious beliefs obsolete in a somewhat short time span. we owe much to a group of brilliant thinkers in our societies who had a creative mind that was not satisfied with the surrounding beliefs, even when faced with religious persecution, and thanks to some of these minds, our understanding of life has made important leaps. today some of the most common religious beliefs of the past are a bad memory of past ignorance.

To a certain type of religious person, not believing that God created humanity in a single event starting with Adam and then Eve is inconceivable, while to other people the belief that life forms do not evolve in very long time spans is just as inconceivable. both sides are sure the other side is blind. and in this case the first side is indeed blind because of their beliefs.

stephenw said:

My belief don't matter a jot regarding any of the items you list. My actions regarding them do.
Belief in human rights will achieve nothing. Speaking up for human rights might.

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But our actions are rooted in our beliefs.

Caladan said:

The same can be said of all people who carry preconceived beliefs and miss or are ignorant of the nature of the phenomenas in their life and in life at large.
to some people, certain structures in nature are proof of a God, while to other people that seems like an unsophisticated and not well explored answer. people can enjoy the wonders of life without the need to apply a god, they may take it a step further and explore the meaning behind the structures they see, and perpahs out of inner integrity they avoid being satisfied with beliefs.
naturally there will always be those who will say the others are blind.
but the fact of the matter is that they have no experience of what the other person is seeing nor can they prove that their beliefs are an absolute truth, at the end of the day beliefs are subjective. people must have the humility and realise that the option that their personal beliefs are completely off base is always there.
history is a testament to that, science has made countless of religious beliefs obsolete in a somewhat short time span. we owe much to a group of brilliant thinkers in our societies who had a creative mind that was not satisfied with the surrounding beliefs, even when faced with religious persecution, and thanks to some of these minds, our understanding of life has made important leaps. today some of the most common religious beliefs of the past are a bad memory of past ignorance.

To a certain type of religious person, not believing that God created humanity in a single event starting with Adam and then Eve is inconceivable, while to other people the belief that life forms do not evolve in very long time spans is just as inconceivable. both sides are sure the other side is blind. and in this case the first side is indeed blind because of their beliefs.

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i am unsure if i was clear enough for you, Caladan. i am not really referring to religious or atheist or whatever. i am talking about individual here. there are many religious who's blind to beauty of human and nature. they might say some certain stuff like 'God created all'. matter of fact even a robot would say if it was programmed to do so. yes, i would call some people blind. i recently read about what Russians did to Chechen people. did you know that they cut legs off little kids to make sure next generation would not be standing? you got to be so blinded to cut legs off a 5 year old girl, don't you think? i do not know their beliefs and i do not need to know to judge them as "blind" because regardless what they believe in, cruel people are blinded by hatred.


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7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
(Old Testament | Proverbs 23:7)

What we believe determines who we are.

UltraViolet said:

you can walk, move and act through it all and not believe (or disbelieve) any of it.

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It is not about outward appearances..

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(New Testament | Matthew 7:15)

.lava said:

regardless what they believe in,


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Belief - are people talking about belief in a specific denomination? Or simple belief in being loving/charitable/humble etc.? The former does not matter as much as the latter.

stephenw said:

My belief don't matter a jot regarding any of the items you list. My actions regarding them do.
Belief in human rights will achieve nothing. Speaking up for human rights might.

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faith without works is dead... belief without works is dead. If there are no actions, then you never really believed it in the first place. If your actions come without belief, then they are hollow, and your true agenda will soon be uncovered (wolf in sheep's clothing).

Belief and actions are not so easily separated.

.lava said:

i recently read about what Russians did to Chechen people. did you know that they cut legs off little kids to make sure next generation would not be standing? you got to be so blinded to cut legs off a 5 year old girl, don't you think? i do not know their beliefs and i do not need to know to judge them as "blind" because regardless what they believe in, cruel people are blinded by hatred.


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Im sure many of us on the forum have witnessed or found ourselves in events that made us wonder how some people came to be what they are.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19)

Storm said:

But our actions are rooted in our beliefs.

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I am not convinced of that

Stephenw argues that your beliefs about religion don't matter because, regardless what your particular religious beliefs are, you can always experience a kind of oneness with things. By contrast, the comfort (he uses the word "satisfaction", which I think probably comes to the same thing) his beliefs brings to his consciousness is secondary because "what passes for my consciousness is just the surface of the mind ocean and is only of any importance to itself." By contrast, what's important are "my longings and in my dreams." Beliefs are only the surface. What we do -- our behavior -- is rooted in "the depths", and I take it that means that they are not rooted in beliefs.

I find this either confusing or mistaken in several ways. First, why are beliefs considered to be "surface" but my "longings and dreams" from "the depths"? Couldn't it be the other way around? If not, why not?

Second, does stephenw's beliefs about this order affect his behavior, for example, the way he interacts with the world? It seems so. Because he believes beliefs are surface level only, he tries to interact with the world on a more intuitive level. But what if he believed otherwise, that beliefs are fundamental and from the depths? Would that affect the way he tries to understand the world, that is, his epistemological behavior (just to start there, but the point could easily be extended). But then it would seem that at least one belief is fundamental and not surface: the belief about the role of beliefs.

Third, don't longings and dreams have a belief set as an essential component? If I dream of being or doing X, or of something being X, that means I think that X is desirable, and that desireableness is rooted in my beliefs about X, that it has certain features. To put it another way, if you tell me that you dream of X, it makes perfect sense for me to ask why. It would be very strange if you couldn't provide any answer whatsoever to the question, and the answer would inevitably involve beliefs about how the world would be better if X were true (or something of that sort). And if you didn't believe that the world would be better if X were true, you wouldn't dream X.

So it seems that we can't get around the idea that beliefs are essential to our actions, and hence they matter immeasurably. Examples abound, but I'll settle on one. The early Christians in Egypt traveled up and down the byways of Alexandria, scooping up abandoned children, almost all of whom were girls or physically imperfect boys, and handing them over to wet nurses, who would raise them. They did this because of certain beliefs they held about the inherent dignity of every life. The culture of the day abandoned those same babies to death or temple prostitution because they had different beliefs about the dignity of individual lives.

All this leads me to wonder what stephenw must have actually had in mind when he said that beliefs "don't matter". Surely he couldn't have meant that it doesn't matter what we think about the dignity of people and hence whether we abandon them to death or take care of them. He says explicitly that beliefs don't matter because we can feel oneness with things regardless what we believe. And I agree that beliefs don't seem to affect our capacity for that. But even if we agree that that feeling is very important and that our beliefs aren't particularly relevant to our having that feeling, it still seems that beliefs matter a lot. I hope stephenw responds to this, explaining where I've misunderstood him or where my understanding is a bit off. If it matters.

stephenw said:

I am not convinced of that

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Why not?

First - I enjoyed your disagreement. Thank you for taking the time

Dunemeister said:

if we agree that that feeling is very important and that our beliefs aren't particularly relevant to our having that feeling

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We agree.

Stephenw argues that your beliefs about religion don't matter

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True.

They did this because of certain beliefs they held about the inherent dignity of every life

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Perhaps they did
Others might argue that Christians have carried out atrocities because of their beliefs, for example during the Crusades or Cromwells slaughter in Ireland.
My own opinion is that it is the actions of those in both these examples that are important and not the beliefs of those who acted.
What was important (from an Irish perspective) about Cromwell was not his pious Christianity but his actions - the murderous slaughter.

First, why are beliefs considered to be "surface" but my "longings and dreams" from "the depths"? Couldn't it be the other way around? If not, why not?

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My beliefs have done a full turnabout. I have gone from atheist to theist. My behaviour towards others has not changed as a result of my beliefs - that is why, regarding myself, I consider my beliefs to be 'surface'.
My longings and dreams are constant despite the evolution of my beliefs that is why I consider them to be from the depths.
Could it be the other way around? I honestly don't know. If someone explained to me why they considered it so in their case - I would believe them.

Because he believes beliefs are surface level only, he tries to interact with the world on a more intuitive level

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I'm not sure what I try to do comes into it. I find what I believe plays catch up with what I feel. My consciousness lags behind my experience.

don't longings and dreams have a belief set as an essential component?

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I have found that neither my longings or my dreams make sense to me as I experience them or am close to them in time. Again I experience my consciousness playing catch-up with something deeper. For example - for a long time I didn't dream at all. When I began to dream I had the same dream over and over. I would be trapped on a height - in a lighthouse, on a giant tree growing out of the ocean, on top of a skyscraper in a lake, always looking longingly at the ground I couldn't reach. These dreams made no sense to me whatsoever - at the time I was an atheist. I believed the idea of God was nonsense. Since I have come onboard with God I haven't had this dream.

Surely he couldn't have meant that it doesn't matter what we think about the dignity of people and hence whether we abandon them to death or take care of them.

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Indeed this is not what I meant. As you noted

Stephenw argues that your beliefs about religion don't matter

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I think our actions towards others are what matter not what we believe.

I've tried to answer everything. If you feel I have left anything out please tell me and I'll try to address it.

Stephen, I think I may have misread you. When you say "our beliefs don't matter," are you referring exclusively to theological minutia? Because I had assumed you meant all our beliefs, or at least our worldviews entire.

Storm said:

Why not?

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Just one example that springs to mind.
I believe violence is wrong and inexcusable in every circumstance. If someone harmed one my children I would brain them.

Storm said:

Stephen, I think I may have misread you. When you say "our beliefs don't matter," are you referring exclusively to theological minutia? Because I had assumed you meant all our beliefs, or at least our worldviews entire.

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Hi Storm. I don't think our beliefs generally matter compared to our actions and I think this is especially so with regard to our religious beliefs.