Is Hell a Basic Christian Tenet?

[MaddLlama]

I have bolded a major force of change, and the main source of Christian belief...

You're all missing my point though.

Rocka quoted a verse that implied that Jesus believed in a hell as a "lake of fire". My point is that as a Jew, it is highly improbable that Jesus believed that.

 

[MaddLlama]

Case in point. For some forms of Christianity (not the best forms, IMO), a belief in hell is a central pillar of the religion, and without it, the whole thing comes crashing down.

One thing I noticed about Christianity is that the more focus a person or denomination puts on Heaven and Hell, the less they care about respecting other people (and other religions). This has been my general experience/observation.

 

[Storm]

Why do you think I struggled with the whole hell issue last year? I knew that if I renounced belief in hell I may as well throw the whole bible out the window as well. The place of hell is a VERY big deal in Christianity. If you make the decision to not believe in hell, then where do you stop? What else can you believe about the NT if you can't believe words from Jesus himself?

You could keep the Bible and throw Literalism out the window, if you like. Ancient peoples thought much more symbolically than we do, and created myth to express truths that run too deep to be spoken any other way.

 

[lunamoth]

To get back to your question, Laurie, I don't see how someone could be a Christian and not believe there's a hell. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread with quoted scripture, hell is a place referenced by Christ himself.......

Luke 12:4-5, "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 5:29-30, "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 10:28, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."


Why do you think I struggled with the whole hell issue last year? I knew that if I renounced belief in hell I may as well throw the whole bible out the window as well. The place of hell is a VERY big deal in Christianity. If you make the decision to not believe in hell, then where do you stop? What else can you believe about the NT if you can't believe words from Jesus himself?

I remember your struggle buttercup. Raised as an Episcopalian I have never been a "Bible only" Christian. While affirming the truth of the Bible, many Episcopalians think as Terry has expressed that hell is a state of separation from God, not a literal place of burning torment. Still others take the heterodox view that the separation from God is never irreversible, that we always have the choice to be closer to God, even after physical death, and that ultimately all will be in harmony with God.

It's not just some Episcopalians that take this view. You might want to check out the Eastern Orthodox view on hell. And EO is a much older denomination than Baptist.

 

[Buttercup]

I remember your struggle buttercup. Raised as an Episcopalian I have never been a "Bible only" Christian. While affirming the truth of the Bible, many Episcopalians think as Terry has expressed that hell is a state of separation from God, not a literal place of burning torment. Still others take the heterodox view that the separation from God is never irreversible, that we always have the choice to be closer to God, even after physical death, and that ultimately all will be in harmony with God.

Seems to me the way a truly benevolent being would act. As MB pointed out....punishing a human in hell without rescue for an eternity for living a miniscule human lifespan is simply monstrous.

It's not just some Episcopalians that take this view. You might want to check out the Eastern Orthodox view on hell. And EO is a much older denomination than Baptist.

Yep. James explained the EO views last year. Much more palatable than much of American Christianity's views.

 

[joeboonda]

Jesus said of some towns that rejected Him that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for them at the judgement. This and other scripture indicate that Hell will not be the same for everyone. This would be indicative of a just God who is fair in His "sentencing" so to speak. Just as every Christian will receive reward or suffer loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ, so too, will every lost sinner receive their fair and just judgement from God at the Great White Throne Judgement. The Bible says God is love and He loves us so much He let Jesus take the penalty of sin for us so we never have to worry about Hell if we simply accept God's free gift. God is no monster, He is loving, caring, merciful, patient, just, and completely fair. But He is also holy, a consuming fire in whose immediate presence sin cannot abide for it would be consumed. But He has done everything needed to be done to clothe us with Christ's righeousness instead of our own which is 'as filthy rags'. Jesus did not lie, nor die to save us from nothing, He said if we believe in Him we have eternal life and if we do not we are 'condemned already' because our deeds were evil and we loved darkness rather than light.

His love and gift is so simple, I do not know why people screw it up so badly. Just as their are physical laws like gravity, there are spiritual laws. We do not understand them completely now, but God has given us enough revelation in His Word that we can know what we need to know to be saved. Some of the spiritual laws are that the wages of sin is death, all have sinned, so Christ paid the wages of sin for us, He died, and all who trust Him that His death was sufficient payment do not have to pay the wages of sin themselves, Jesus did it for them and He gave us His 'robe of righteousness' in place of our own filthy rags. It is really quite wonderful to know God loves us that much to take our sentence for us. What more could He do?

 

[Buttercup]

What more could He do?

Come over for coffee so that I know he's real. An old book as sole proof just don't cut it.

 

[Booko]

I thought Jewish people didn't believe in hell. At least.....not in a hell that resembles what Christianity teaches.

If you want to see the closest religious version to the hell Christianity now teaches ... try Zoroastianism.

The Jews were captive in that part of the world, and may well have picked up a few ideas, though they didn't seem to stick in Judaism itself.

Why Christians should hang onto a religious idea that has more to do a common view in Zoroastrianism than what Christ taught, I can't really say. You would think there would be more continuity with Judaism, but it doesn't seem so.

 

[Booko]

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


thats not permanent?

How do you square the different terms used in the NT with the current common idea of hell?

How, for example, does "Gehenna" square with this view?

 

[lilithu]

If God is just, that's the best argument against eternal damnation. There's no way any moral person could say that eternal suffering was just punishment for anything at all that could be done in a human lifespan. Honestly, I can't understand what's going on in people's heads. A just God would at some point recognize that enough was enough. A God who thought that eternal torment was just would be an insane monster.

One of UU's forefathers, Universalist minister Hosea Ballou made the same argument in his "Treatise on Atonement." Universalists are generally known for their focus on God's love. God's love and compassion for us is so great that there's no way that God would damn anyone to an everlasting torment. But Ballou focused on reason. He said that no matter what we do in this life, even the worst sinner, even Hitler for example, it is still only a finite amount of sin. Logically speaking, it would be unjust for God to mete out an infinite punishment for a finite transgression. Therefore, eternal hell cannot possibly exist.

One can say "God is love."
One can say "God is just."
Either way, there is no permanent hell.

 

[Smoke]

Just as their are physical laws like gravity, there are spiritual laws.

Evangelicals don't believe God is subject to physical laws; why should he be subject to spiritual laws? Unless he's just a pawn in the game. Maybe it's a waste of time worshiping God, and you should be trying to hook up with the being that set the spiritual laws in motion.

 

[Booko]

One thing I noticed about Christianity is that the more focus a person or denomination puts on Heaven and Hell, the less they care about respecting other people (and other religions). This has been my general experience/observation.

Most likely because a great focus on pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die is essentially egoistic.

 

[lilithu]

"I couldn't reconcile a God whose mercy endures forever and this torture chamber that's customized for unbelievers," he said. "You can't be happy. And how can you really love a god who's torturing your grandmother?"

The more he studied, the more he saw the Bible not as the literal word of God, but a book by men about God, with primitive men prone to mistranslations, political agendas and human emotions.

And one night, as he watched ABC News' Peter Jennings report on the parade of suffering in Rwanda, he had a revelation. He questioned how a God who calls himself loving could let people suffer so badly and then suck them into Hell.

"That's when I thought I heard an inner voice say, 'Is that what you think we're doing?'" he said.

Pearson believed God was telling him there was Hell on earth.

"The bitter torment of the idea of an angry, visceral, distant, stoic, harsh, unrelenting, unforgiving, intolerant God is Hell," he said. "It's pagan. It's superstitious. And if you trace its history, it goes way back to where men feared the gods because something happened in life that caused frustration."

Pearson said people who believe in Hell create it for themselves and others.

"People who believe in devils and demons become that in consciousness and they act it out," he added.

The UUs have been abuzz about Pearson. We're gonna try to invite him to join with out faith. Certainly the theology that he espouses above - everything that I bolded - is in keeping with our faith. Of course, if he really were to become a UU minister (which I personally think is unlikely), he's gonna have to drop the anti-pagan attitude. :sarcastic Maybe take an Adult Spiritual Development class or something.

 

[joeboonda]

Come over for coffee so that I know he's real. An old book as sole proof just don't cut it.

Jesus asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. The Bible is full of prophecies fulfilled very precisely and in detail. Only the one true God can know the future and only the Bible dares to prophecy future events. God says we will find Him when we seek Him with ALL our heart. Study Bible prophecy for one, it will show you the Bible is true and Jesus' words are true.

 

[joeboonda]

Evangelicals don't believe God is subject to physical laws; why should he be subject to spiritual laws? Unless he's just a pawn in the game. Maybe it's a waste of time worshiping God, and you should be trying to hook up with the being that set the spiritual laws in motion.

We humans are subject to both spiritual and physical laws and God will not act outside His nature. As I said, He has given us all the revelation we need to be saved...I trust Jesus, I do not believe He lied to us, nor do I believe His disciples all (but John) died for something they knew was a lie. In court only 2 eye-witnesses are needed, I believe Peter when he says that these are not cunningly devised fables, but that we were eye-witnesses to His majesty.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Jesus asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. The Bible is full of prophecies fulfilled very precisely and in detail. Only the one true God can know the future and only the Bible dares to prophecy future events. God says we will find Him when we seek Him with ALL our heart. Study Bible prophecy for one, it will show you the Bible is true and Jesus' words are true.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1-3

 

[Smoke]

We humans are subject to both spiritual and physical laws and God will not act outside His nature.

If such laws are in accord's with God's nature, then we're back where we started: he's an insane monster.

 

[Buttercup]

Jesus asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. The Bible is full of prophecies fulfilled very precisely and in detail. Only the one true God can know the future and only the Bible dares to prophecy future events. God says we will find Him when we seek Him with ALL our heart. Study Bible prophecy for one, it will show you the Bible is true and Jesus' words are true.

When I was a Christian I read quite a bit of prophecy related commentary on Isaiah, Daniel, Malachi et al and used to think Josh McDowell who wrote Evidence That Demands A Verdict and More Evidence That Demands A Verdict had some great points to consider on prophecy, especially those concerning Christ. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, A Christian Jew, wrote an eschatology related book called, The Footsteps of the Messiah, a dry and heavy but informative dispensational work that I read several times over. The problem was that I was reading and learning from a non objective viewpoint. I wanted it all to be true so I threw common sense out the window.

Last year when my beliefs first started to change and I had many doubts, I reread Evidence That Demands A Verdict in hopes of assuaging my worries about Christianity. Unfortunately unlike 20 years ago, I now view much of prophecy as incredibly vague or even non related to the original premise. I was very dissappointed to be truthful, I wanted to believe like before but simply cannot see the relation or relevance any longer. Too much of prophecy could have been added to fit the story or it just doesn't hold up well to objective scrutiny. But, I can assure you, I wish it wasn't the case. For me anyway.

 

[Hope]

If such laws are in accord's with God's nature, then we're back where we started: he's an insane monster.

An insane monster would not willingly give Himself up to be tortured and crucified, in my humble opinion. As joeboonda pointed out---when salvation from eternal damnation is offered to us as a free gift, why sit around bemoaning the fact that hell exists? It's like being offered a parachute, free of charge, in an airplane that's about to crash, and rejecting the parachute based only on one's viewpoint on the fairness of the fact that God allowed you on the plane in the first place. You're yelling at God, "you're so mean for letting me on this plane! How dare you." And meanwhile God, in His deep love and compassion for you, keeps extending that parachute, saying, "Take it! Take it! I don't want you to die. I don't want you to suffer. All you have to do is take the parachute and put it on. You'll know in time why I allowed you on this plane." If you value your life and well-being, then you'll take the parachute, no matter what your objections to the fairness of the situation might be.

So that's my viewpoint. And Buttercup is right. I don't see how Christians can reject the idea of hell, when it is so plainly declared in the Bible. And what indeed was the point of Christ's sacrifice if not to save us from hell and reconcile us to God? I don't like the concept of hell anymore than the average person---I wish it wasn't true---but if God says it exists, then I'd better accept it.

I wonder if there are more deep-seated reasons people reject hell and the way out of it that God offers. Just a thought.

 

[Smoke]

It's like being offered a parachute, free of charge, in an airplane that's about to crash, and rejecting the parachute based only on one's viewpoint on the fairness of the fact that God allowed you on the plane in the first place.

It's more like being told that God has put you on a plane and decreed that it must crash, but he has killed an innocent victim and that sacrifice will allow you to have a parachute. But the thing is, you aren't on a plane at all.

I'm not questioning God; I'm questioning the reasoning behind some people's ideas about God. It's not God's story; it's yours.