Do animals have free will?

[painted wolf]

An animal chooses to take the bait on the trap or not.
An animal chooses to kill or not.
An animal chooses to make and use a tool or not.
Animals show compassion, anger, love and all the other emotions that humans do.
Why can't they have free will, they arn't puppets.

wa:do

 

[kadzbiz]

Rubbish? :sad: I'm devastated. You called my opinion "rubbish"?

I was speaking of free will in a theological sense........All people are born with a conscience. They are not all born with a knowledge of God, but are held accountable for their actions to the degree that they do understand right and wrong.

Yes, sorry to devastate you. I thought you were stonger than that Katzpur. Speaking in a theological sense? I don't get it, what other ways is there to talk about free will. I didn't think there were options.

I don't know if we're born with a conscience or not, maybe it's developed, learned. We learn right and wrong from our parents and peers and teachers, etc. We are not born with the knowledge of God, but even my young baby already knows whether to cry out to me or not in the morning depending if she's happy singing to herself or wants out of the cots. Her choice to call out, her free will.

Or something simpler still, like when a cat decides to move from sleeping on the couch to go sleep on the bed.

Or whether to poop on the couch, bed or kitty litter, ha ha.

 

[may]

did the serpent not decide to tempt Eve in the Garden?

it was satan who tempted eve, satan is a very powerful angel or spirit creature ,and it is no big deal for him to make it look as if it was the serpent speaking, but the thoughts that were coming out of the serpent were the thoughts of that spirit creature that had turned bad , so it was nothing to do with the thoughts of the serpent . and yes the angels do have freewill the same as humans have freewill. that is why the angel that turned into a rebel or opposer of God was given this name SATAN THE DEVIL . think about what those names mean . satan means,
[Resister]
The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. and he will use whatever he can to do those things, and the serpent was just one of those things

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

In terms of God and sin NO they don't have free will, or more exactly they don't have the intellect to make that sort of choice.
There is nothing fundamental about an animal that precludes, the some time development, of rational thought.

In terms of the simple choice of daily actions, they have about the same ability to chose as a small child..... But they do make choices.
In that respect they have free will.

 

[wizanda]

I don't believe they do. Thier instincts are heavily seated in there bio-mechanical make up. That isn't the case for humans.

So haven't we Humans bio-mechanics?
So why do we try and satisfy our self’s with dopamine?...some of us call this love and comes from the brain, yet we have free will to seek more then this like Anandamide...

 

[may]

ANIMALS are not capable of conscious rebellion against God; but humans are .

 

[wizanda]

ANIMALS are not capable of conscious rebellion against God; but humans are .

Where is that from?

My last dog, would escape, steal and rob, aggressive...that was his character....

My current Dog is better then humans and yesterday on walking him in a crowd public road with no lead, he was better behaved then all humans were, by far...
He also will stop in the street if there are people with beautiful souls, and then wait until I say “hello” to them….
Next will you be telling me plants don’t have feelings and so denying current scientific research and the divine nature of God in all?....

 

[kadzbiz]

ANIMALS are not capable of conscious rebellion against God; but humans are .

Of course they can't when they don't even have a consciousness of God. There are people, probably still, that also don't.

 

[Popeyesays]

So haven't we Humans bio-mechanics?
So why do we try and satisfy our self’s with dopamine?...some of us call this love and comes from the brain, yet we have free will to seek more then this like Anandamide...

The line that divides man from animal is not as material as the line that divides animal from plant.

"From the time of the creation of Adam to this day there have been two pathways in the world of humanity; one the natural or materialistic, the other the religious or spiritual. The pathway of nature is the pathway of the animal realm. The animal acts in accordance with the requirements of nature, follows its own instincts and desires. Whatever its impulses and proclivities may be it has the liberty to gratify them; yet it is a captive of nature. It cannot deviate in the least degree from the road nature has established. It is utterly minus spiritual susceptibilities, ignorant of divine religion and without knowledge of the kingdom of God. The animal possesses no power of ideation or conscious intelligence; it is a captive of the senses and deprived of that which lies beyond them. It is subject to what the eye sees, the ear hears, the nostrils sense, the taste detects and touch reveals. These sensations are acceptable and sufficient for the animal. But that which is beyond the range of the senses, that realm of phenomena through which the conscious pathway to the kingdom of God leads, the world of spiritual susceptibilities and divine religion, -- of these the animal is completely unaware, for in its highest station it is a captive of nature."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 235)

Regards,
Scott

 

[wizanda]

So when Yeshua parables are based on nature, Lao Tzu's poems, Zen, etc does that mean we are also captive of nature....
Else does that mean, that the divine author used creation to show us the way....like water flows to the valley, as that is the easiest path to follow....
We have chosen our own ways, like walking up the mountain and away from our natural path….

 

[Popeyesays]

So when Yeshua parables are based on nature, Lao Tzu's poems, Zen, etc does that mean we are also captive of nature....
Else does that mean, that the divine author used creation to show us the way....like water flows to the valley, as that is the easiest path to follow....
We have chosen our own ways, like walking up the mountain and away from our natural path….

In one sense.

In another it is a matter of capacity, mankind has the capacity to transcend the animal nature, in fact God seems to desire us to do that. the baha`i writings also liken the animal nature of man to satan, the desire to gratify onesself at any cost to others. The many forms of the Golden rule are the mandate for man to transcend.

We see human qualities in all kinds of animals, but they are associated with the instinct to survive--animals protect the pack to some degree, foster offspring selflessly, etc.; but it is the instinct to save the species that drives it.

You may see wolves do splendid things for pack members and offsprings, but you won't see a wolf starve for another.

Mahatma Ghandi did starve himself for others--at least twice. That is the transcendant nature of the divine impulse which the kingdom of MAN possesses, but the kingdom of Animals does not.

Regards,
Scott

 

[wizanda]

Bees, Ants....etc?

 

[Popeyesays]

Bees and ants have a hive intelligence, I don't think that is relevant to the nature of man. Though it makes good fable--work hard! sacrifice! Bees and ants don't have a choice.

Regards,
Scott

 

[wizanda]

So if a king (Christ) was appointed and matched prophecies globally...would we or are ants more intelligent?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Free will is an interesting concept. The arguments of hard determinists are compelling. But we understand the source of our "choices" and also understand that the effects of the causes that cause our choices are a part of the Self, and therefore are our choice to make. That may not be complete free will (we are choosing something because the Self is designed to do si) but it is our will.

Animals don't consider free will, as far as we can tell. (They might. Language barrier prevents us from ever truly knowing.) If a being doesn't consider the source of its will, then it may as well be free. It may not be for us, but for the being it is.

But really, our knowledge of the animal mind is limited until we can communicate with them better.

 

[doppelganger]

From whose perspective? The animals', mine, yours? Will would appear "free" from the perspective of the willing, even if it weren't "free" at all, at all.

Though I'm pretty sure orcas have free will. Or at least they have Free Willy.

 

[Popeyesays]

So if a king (Christ) was appointed and matched prophecies globally...would we or are ants more intelligent?

Perhaps you could explain the question a little bit? I really don't understand what you are asking.

regards,
Scott

 

[wizanda]

Perhaps you could explain the question a little bit? I really don't understand what you are asking.

regards,
Scott

Is there anything stopping human nature in having one spiritual king, too bring all together as one….like in ants and bees….?

 

[BruceDLimber]

I would say that animals are more-or-less sophisticated automatons.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Popeyesays]

Is there anything stopping human nature in having one spiritual king, too bring all together as one….like in ants and bees….?

No, if men are created for Free Will that is totally an individual thing. It is the nature of man to search out his own spiritual choices, that can't ever be relegated to another or to the group--it's intensely personal.

Man is man by his nature and the idea of communal mind for mankind as a destination would imply that man was imperfect in Creation. God creates perfection, so all the vagaries we feel about what our existence means must be part of the nature of man. I find the concept of hive-man to be repulsive,

Regards,
Scott