What practical function does religion hold?

[Regiomontanus]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

Why?

16 “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[Nakosis]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

If gives some folks hope that otherwise would be leading fairly dreadful lives. Motivates people to struggle through life's many obstacles.

Not everyone needs that kind of hope or motivation but some people do.

For me, I see enough quality in life that I don't life to be any more than what it appears to be.

 

[loverofhumanity]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

We are doing that now and descending further into wars and chaos. We have chosen man’s way instead of God’s ways and that is leading us i feel to destruction. God tells us to be at peace with one another but we think of brilliant ideas like nuclear weapons. We need God’s guidance to teach us how to get along. We have so much hatred, prejudice and $trillions spent on weapons to kill and destroy but in God’s world life and the happiness and well-being of people comes first. So looking at the world today, what it tells me is that when man turns away from God he becomes like a savage and brutalises his fellow human without any conscience. Religion teaches not to kill or harm others and if we all followed these teachings, we would live in a happy and peaceful world. Any person who acts like a savage although he may call himself religious is only religious in name only. A true religionist loves all people.

 

[Stevicus]

So what?

So... you also have neighbors. You are part of a community and a living world and an ecosystem. So what? Why bother dealing with your neighbors? Why bother going outside? Why not just be a shut-in and never develop meaningful relationships with anything or anyone?

Because you can't not do so. You can't opt out.

How humans choose to navigate the many relationships in their lives is essential to the experience of life and living. And it is the core foundation of what religion is all about. Relationships. Religion - re-ligare - reconnecting. Recognizing that no, you can't just be a shut-in and avoid relationships with greater/other-than-human forces and powers, whether or not you call them gods. That you depend on these others for your very existence. That you can't avoid this dependency. That some humility is in order. That some gratitude is in order. That not being stupid and shooting yourself in the foot is in order.

Well, of course, I have relationships with other humans. I'm not a shut-in, but when we're talking about something "not of this world," then it's not really part of our physical reality, is it? I'm dependent upon other humans and the basic forces of nature, but does it really require any kind of religious worship of something unseen?

 

[PureX]

Excellent point. I do not think folks really acknowledge the self-perpetuation mechanisms incorporated in to many religious belief systems and institutions, nor do they appreciate their effectiveness in this regard, effectiveness that isn't tempered by any sense of continued utility in the doctrines perpetuated.

I am puzzled by why you think this is significant. What aspects of human society AREN'T intended to perpetuate? Are there businesses that are intended to render themselves insolvent after a set time? Are there governments that are intended to be disbanded and replaced with something else? Are there families that at a certain date choose to no longer associate? I find it very odd that you seem to expect that religious collectives are doing something unisial or unseemly because they seek to maintain and expand their own existence.

After all, what DOESN'T?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I don't consider MLMs to be scams, necessarily. I have friends who sell Tupperware and Avon; I don't consider either of them to be scammers.

...but MLMs have features that encourage growth to various degrees, and those features are analogous to what we find in religion to generally the same range of degrees.

I absolutely consider Tupperware and Avon scams, and their recruits scammers by proxy. But that's another thread.

Everything that exists in capitalism (including charities) have features that encourage growth to various degrees, because they exist within the capitalist world. Growth is not what defines an MLM. What defines an MLM is indirect marketing that encourages a top down profit structure where there are many low-beneficiary advertisers on the bottom and few high-beneficiary advertisers on the top, who get bonuses for recruitment more than sales.

This absolutely does describe *some* religious structures, particularly those in the business of prosperity theology. But it doesn't even accurately describe the religions that are the most scam-like, like Scientology.

It doesn't anywhere close to describe the majority of religions, which is my primary beef with your reductive post and why I do not feel like it's accurate at all. How does MLM describe pagans, Dharmic, non-revealed, non-denominational, et all religions? It doesn't.

Because secular societies are good for religion. It's a lot easier for one denomination to grow and thrive if they don't have to worry about competing denominations grabbing the levers of power and persecuting them.

If the only goal were to grow and thrive, secularism over authoritarianism wouldn't be good for those looking to 'grab the levers of power.' But the truth is that the majority of religions aren't structured like that, let alone the vast majority of religious people. People shouldn't be projecting the activity of a minority of religious individuals who have to utilize things like voter suppression, predatory redistricting, and in the US, the EC and other methods to make a *minority conservative view* into a sustainable power structure.

The vast majority of civil rights battles in both our countries were won by liberal Christians who do not share the profile both toxic irreligious and toxic fundamentalists want them to have. And the sooner they get engaged with honestly instead of through generalizations, the better we'll be able to move forward.

What do you think I got wrong, exactly?

See the above. And my previous post which already described this. "This is an uncharitable viewpoint, given the number of religions and expressions of religions that are non-proselytic, don't have organizational hierarchies, and are perfectly cohabitable with secular societies."

 

[Twilight Hue]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

I think there are people out there that just can't go through life without belief in a god...err higher power, so there is a benefit in terms of coping, but it's also a crutch and a conduit that should be overcome because if you act on behalf of one's god by things like good actions and being friendly and all that, it poses the question as to whether it's done through actual sincerity or through something else, like fear and a compulsion to be compliant for rewards.

 

[Tamino]

Well, of course, I have relationships with other humans. I'm not a shut-in, but when we're talking about something "not of this world," then it's not really part of our physical reality, is it?

Not in the eyes of many animists and pagans. We see the divine as being very much a part of this world.

I'm dependent upon other humans and the basic forces of nature, but does it really require any kind of religious worship of something unseen?

Depends... what about dead people, for example? They're gone, you can't see them anymore. Do you cut all ties of relationship because they are now "unseen"? Or do you keep them on your memory and your stories?
And what about archetypes and concepts? Fertility, the cycles of the year, hope, hospitality... we can be grateful for these things, and celebrate them, even though they are technically unseen. For me, that's a form of religion as well.
It doesn't really require belief in unseen, personal gods and goddesses.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I absolutely consider Tupperware and Avon scams, and their recruits scammers by proxy. But that's another thread.

Regardless of your personal prejudices, I hope that you can recognize that they're yours and not mine, right?

Everything that exists in capitalism (including charities) have features that encourage growth to various degrees, because they exist within the capitalist world. Growth is not what defines an MLM. What defines an MLM is indirect marketing that encourages a top down profit structure where there are many low-beneficiary advertisers on the bottom and few high-beneficiary advertisers on the top, who get bonuses for recruitment more than sales.

That's one way of looking at it. The way of looking at it that I had in mind was that in both the case of MLMs and religion, front-line members are asked to make growth a priority, sometimes focusing more on growth than on the services that the organization nominally provides.

This absolutely does describe *some* religious structures, particularly those in the business of prosperity theology. But it doesn't even accurately describe the religions that are the most scam-like, like Scientology.

Yes - the profit structure of religion usually sucks for front-line members. This is why I used the term "similar to" rather than "the same as."

It doesn't anywhere close to describe the majority of religions, which is my primary beef with your reductive post and why I do not feel like it's accurate at all.

I generally look at religion in terms of adherents, not individual religions. A small religion of, say, 100 people has no more impact on what religion overall is than a Christian church with 100 members has.

How does MLM describe pagans, Dharmic, non-revealed, non-denominational, et all religions? It doesn't.

Depends on the denomination, IMO. I think it's entirely valid to compare various Hindu and Buddhist groups to MLMs.

And like I've said a few times, there's a range. A pagan group that doesn't care about proselytizing is similar to a Norwex group that doesn't care about growing their downline. Both are part of the whole.

If the only goal were to grow and thrive, secularism over authoritarianism wouldn't be good for those looking to 'grab the levers of power.'

... as long as they can be sure of holding onto power forever, which they recognize they can't.

The English-speaking world is still living in the shadow of the period from roughly the Reformation to the English Civil War. Every Christian denomination can point to a time when they were persecuted, had to go into seclusion, watched their adherents killed, etc., all because a competing denomination had control of government.

But the truth is that the majority of religions aren't structured like that, let alone the vast majority of religious people.

Again: I look at things in terms of adherents. "The majority of religions" have less of an impact on the makeup of religion as a whole than the rounding error on any of the top 3 religions does.

People shouldn't be projecting the activity of a minority of religious individuals who have to utilize things like voter suppression, predatory redistricting, and in the US, the EC and other methods to make a *minority conservative view* into a sustainable power structure.

I'm not even necessarily talking about predatory behaviour like that. I'm also talking about things like how the restaurant we went to had a little table with a box labelled "mini Bibles - free!" on it.

The vast majority of civil rights battles in both our countries were won by liberal Christians who do not share the profile both toxic irreligious and toxic fundamentalists want them to have.

Right. Christians, having the majority of political power in both of our country, are the ones who effect most of the change.

I think you're reading way more into my MLM comparison than I intended. I feel like I hit a nerve for you. It seems like you take MLMs to be some epitome of evil and therefore that I'm accusing religion of being evil by my comparison. This isn't the case.

 

[sayak83]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

If reality has a transcendent dimension and our mind/self/spirit is a part of that transcendent dimension, then we can only know and understand who we are by perceiving that.

 

[Altfish]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

Religion gives companionship, comfort and reason to many.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

To echo @SalixIncendium I also am a religious person that doesn't view irreligious as 'bad.'

I also have some feelings about how our society is a little too quick to characterize utility as merely something the whole group can benefit from. I'm a fan of some degree of collectivism and individualism. I do actually agree with @9-10ths_Penguin in calling my religion a hobby (just not a MLM because I have no intention of recruiting, or desire growth.) And personal hobbies are something beneficial to each individual within a community, even if its utility isn't group orientated.

For example, I don't think people NEED to read books, but reading books is beneficial to me, brings me peace and enlarges my worldview. And my spiritual journey is much the same *to me.*

The problem is when those books or spiritual journeys involve things that have negative impacts on society and the self, and that should be discussed individually on a case by case basis instead of whether religion and irreligion in general are 'good' or 'bad.'

I'm also not a theist, so I don't really have a figure of worship. So I can't really answer you there.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Regardless of your personal prejudices, I hope that you can recognize that they're yours and not mine, right?



That's one way of looking at it. The way of looking at it that I had in mind was that in both the case of MLMs and religion, front-line members are asked to make growth a priority, sometimes focusing more on growth than on the services that the organization nominally provides.



Yes - the profit structure of religion usually sucks for front-line members. This is why I used the term "similar to" rather than "the same as."




I generally look at religion in terms of adherents, not individual religions. A small religion of, say, 100 people has no more impact on what religion overall is than a Christian church with 100 members has.



Depends on the denomination, IMO. I think it's entirely valid to compare various Hindu and Buddhist groups to MLMs.

And like I've said a few times, there's a range. A pagan group that doesn't care about proselytizing is similar to a Norwex group that doesn't care about growing their downline. Both are part of the whole.




... as long as they can be sure of holding onto power forever, which they recognize they can't.

The English-speaking world is still living in the shadow of the period from roughly the Reformation to the English Civil War. Every Christian denomination can point to a time when they were persecuted, had to go into seclusion, watched their adherents killed, etc., all because a competing denomination had control of government.




Again: I look at things in terms of adherents. "The majority of religions" have less of an impact on the makeup of religion as a whole than the rounding error on any of the top 3 religions does.



I'm not even necessarily talking about predatory behaviour like that. I'm also talking about things like how the restaurant we went to had a little table with a box labelled "mini Bibles - free!" on it.



Right. Christians, having the majority of political power in both of our country, are the ones who effect most of the change.

I think you're reading way more into my MLM comparison than I intended. I feel like I hit a nerve for you. It seems like you take MLMs to be some epitome of evil and therefore that I'm accusing religion of being evil by my comparison. This isn't the case.

No, I'm reading into the careless language choices where you are using 'religions' when you mean 'some members of some religions,' and should mean 'a minority of some members of some religions.' Aka reductive generalizations.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I also have some feelings about how our society is a little too quick to characterize utility as merely something the whole group can benefit from. I'm a fan of some degree of collectivism and individualism. I do actually agree with @9-10ths_Penguin in calling my religion a hobby (just not a MLM because I have no intention of recruiting, or desire growth.)

But it's the same with plenty of people in MLMs.

One of my good friends is nominally an Avon rep, but she doesn't recruit and doesn't push sales on anyone; she basically does group buys for herself and any friends who want in on it.

Avon is still an MLM, though.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

But it's the same with plenty of people in MLMs.

One of my good friends is nominally an Avon rep, but she doesn't recruit and doesn't push sales on anyone; she basically does group buys for herself and any friends who want in on it.

Avon is still an MLM, though.

I've already been over this. Not all or even most religions are structured anything like an MLM.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Why?

16 “For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

How is this, in your own words, relevant to the OP?

This is a discussion forum, not a C/P scripture forum.

 

[an anarchist]

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

I'll give you my personal perspective based on my own philosophy.

Humans have the power of "god". If we could collectively realize and use that power, we can transcend suffering.

So the worst thing that can happen by people not realizing our potential is that we perpetually suffer.

 

[Bear Wild]

While reading some of the debates about religion and atheism, a lot of the focus seems to be on "belief" or "non-belief," which sometimes seems to go in circles. In this thread, I'm thinking of looking more in the sense of the practical function of religion in everyday life in modern society.

Even setting aside the question of "belief," let's just assume for the sake of argument that there really is some sort of intelligent higher power which created this place we live in - and created us to live here. My question would be: So what?

Even if that were true, why would that require us, as humans, to create a religion around it and worship whatever it is we think created us? What actual function does it serve for whatever deity or deities built this place? What practical use does it hold for humanity? Human minds have derived our own concepts of morality, so we didn't really need any god to tell us how to behave or what is good and what is evil.

I'm not completely dismissing some of the more positive aspects, at least in terms of charitable work, giving a helping hand to people in need or people going through various trials and tribulations in life. These are good things which do have beneficial aspects for society. But this is just people helping people - no higher power is really needed or required.

If we just live our lives and deal with the world as it is presented to us, then isn't that enough? Why can't we be atheists, even if there really is a god or gods or some other higher power? Why is a lack of belief such a horrible thing in the eyes of religious people? What's the worst thing that could happen?

Religions is about your relationship to the world. Is this world all there is or is their some otherworld. What happens when you die. How do you treat the world around you or your "moral" behavior. How do you know what is true and what is important. These are questions that face everyone even atheists have to answer for themselves. There does not need to have a set of specific beliefs, no god or goddess is necessary, no written word, there does not have to be a supernatural, there no absolute moral code.

So I would say if you are atheist and have considered these questions with answers that feel right to you then you have your religion. The diversity in religion around the world is so great and diversity within religions is so great that there is no other way to define religion other than in your relationship to the world and everyone has one.

 

[Quintessence]

Multi-level marketing

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea what that is either. Oh well.

But if this some sort of cynical reduction of the human search for meaning to capitalist philosophy and market commerce and consumerism?

Nah, man. Just nah. Gross.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea what that is either. Oh well.

But if this some sort of cynical reduction of the human search for meaning to capitalist philosophy and market commerce and consumerism?

Nah, man. Just nah. Gross.

If your religion helps you search for meaning, that's great. I don't see much search for meaning in the religion I see around me.

I mostly see tribalism and organizations trying to propagate themselves.