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Logic requires Faith

Echogem222

Active Member
Though I presume we all understand the basics of logic which are commonly known, there is a fairly well-known hole in logic that many choose to ignore:

Example: The Paradox of the Literal and Figurative

Imagine someone says, "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." In traditional logic, if we take this statement literally, we might analyze it as follows:

A. Premise 1: The person claims they could eat a horse.

B. Premise 2: Eating an entire horse is humanly impossible due to its size and the limitations of human appetite and digestion.

C. Logical Conclusion: The statement is false or absurd.

However, this analysis falls apart when we recognize that the statement is not meant to be taken literally. It's a hyperbolic way of expressing extreme hunger. The real meaning isn't about eating a horse but conveying the intensity of hunger. Traditional logic, without considering the non-literal use of language, leads to a misinterpretation. In other words, we need awareness to know it's not meant to be taken literally. And just like awareness is needed to understand something like that correctly, it's also possible that all of reality exists differently to than the way we think it does. So even something so basic as 1+1=2, may not actually be true. In the case of 1+1=2 being false, it would be like an optical illusion, from one standpoint, 1+1=2 seems to make sense, but when you see the full context of reality, you realize that's just your mind playing tricks on you.

But it's not even just logic, our own existence we seem to have awareness of, may actually be false. The reason being is that the effect of awareness could just be a deception, it could just seem like we're aware we exist, when in reality things are different. In other words, all things require faith. Does this mean that all forms of faith are equal to each other? This is unlikely due to the effect of different faiths seeming to lead to different conclusions.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Faith is not a choice for we humans. The only choice is in what cognitive scheme we will place our faith in.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Though I presume we all understand the basics of logic which are commonly known, there is a fairly well-known hole in logic that many choose to ignore:

Example: The Paradox of the Literal and Figurative

Imagine someone says, "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." In traditional logic, if we take this statement literally, we might analyze it as follows:

A. Premise 1: The person claims they could eat a horse.

B. Premise 2: Eating an entire horse is humanly impossible due to its size and the limitations of human appetite and digestion.

C. Logical Conclusion: The statement is false or absurd.

However, this analysis falls apart when we recognize that the statement is not meant to be taken literally. It's a hyperbolic way of expressing extreme hunger. The real meaning isn't about eating a horse but conveying the intensity of hunger. Traditional logic, without considering the non-literal use of language, leads to a misinterpretation. In other words, we need awareness to know it's not meant to be taken literally. And just like awareness is needed to understand something like that correctly, it's also possible that all of reality exists differently to than the way we think it does. So even something so basic as 1+1=2, may not actually be true. In the case of 1+1=2 being false, it would be like an optical illusion, from one standpoint, 1+1=2 seems to make sense, but when you see the full context of reality, you realize that's just your mind playing tricks on you.

But it's not even just logic, our own existence we seem to have awareness of, may actually be false. The reason being is that the effect of awareness could just be a deception, it could just seem like we're aware we exist, when in reality things are different. In other words, all things require faith. Does this mean that all forms of faith are equal to each other? This is unlikely due to the effect of different faiths seeming to lead to different conclusions.
There's no paradox if one understands
the meanings involved.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
There's no paradox if one understands
the meanings involved.
Yes, but that requires awareness, and awareness could be just an illusion, something that seems to make sense but actually is a deception. In other words, all you are doing is explaining what your faith is, but you're not explaining why you have faith.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Can you explain your reasoning? If not, I have no reason to believe you.
There's no reason to believe me.
But you should consider that "awareness
could be an illusion" doesn't make a paradox
out of statements that superficially conflict
only because one's meaning is literal, & the
other isn't.
It's also smacks of mischief to use "faith" in
the context of logic.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
You are not going anywhere with this logic....:)
Logic understands that the statement is not meant to be taken literally..
When you have full awareness of the situation, yes, but without that awareness, no, because logic does not give awareness of such things, it just allows you to understand what you already know from a logical standpoint. But if our awareness is actually an optical illusion of sorts, then even logic is no longer logical through logical understanding, creating a paradox.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yes. Faith is our choosing to trust in an idea of truth or reality that we cannot be certain is true or real, and then living as if it were.
I think the word "faith" is used slightly incorrectly here. We know for example the value of Pi (to millions of decimals, now). I know that if I use that value to, say, 5 decimal points in working out the circumference of a dome I'm planning for my tomb, I will be so spot on that we can't measure the error -- and yet the error is still there. If I use only the first 30 decimals, I could measure the circumference of the solar system and not be wrong by millimetres. So, rather than have "faith" in Pi and my calculations, I do trust them.

This is the same in many areas of study: we will always have a level of uncertainty, but when our experiments tell us that we've got it "close enough," then we can trust our predictions. But I wouldn't call that "faith."
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think the word "faith" is used slightly incorrectly here. We know for example the value of Pi (to millions of decimals, now). I know that if I use that value to, say, 5 decimal points in working out the circumference of a dome I'm planning for my tomb, I will be so spot on that we can't measure the error -- and yet the error is still there. If I use only the first 30 decimals, I could measure the circumference of the solar system and not be wrong by millimetres. So, rather than have "faith" in Pi and my calculations, I do trust them.
Trust them all you want. But numbers and their relationships are all just ideological "make-believe" until we apply them to something real. And then we have to trust that the application of these ideological absolutes will function when we assign them it to bits of our relative reality.

Take ten sheep away from a herd of twenty sheep and you will have ten sheep left. But that only holds true so long as we ignore all the ways in which the sheep are not equal to each other. But we place our faith in the idea that when we ignore these differences the resulting sum pf sheep will function to our satisfaction.
This is the same in many areas of study: we will always have a level of uncertainty, but when our experiments tell us that we've got it "close enough," then we can trust our predictions. But I wouldn't call that "faith."
There are no "levels of uncertainty" because certainty is an absolute state. One is either certain or one is not. We can only have relative levels of surety when certainty is not obtainable. And certainty is not obtainable by we humans according to the logic of our not being omniscient. So relative levels or degrees of surety is all we humans are ever going to get.

And this is why we must live by faith. Why we must choose some idea of truth and reality to live by even though we cannot be certain that it is true or even real.
 
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