Putin provided the warfare.
Elon musk provided Putin with assistance.
USA provides only materiel.
Europe....when a country isn't attackingYou could count Europeans out.
its neighbors, it's rolling over to submit.
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Poland Stops Providing Ukraine with New Weapons, More Calls in Some EU States to Stop Backing Ukraine
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
Elon musk provided Putin with assistance.
USA provides only materiel.
its neighbors, it's rolling over to submit.
Highlighting Rand Paul as a U.S. "crack" is an interesting choice, although "crank" might have been a better one. Suggesting that his position reflects some newfound Ukraine fatigue is sloppy at best. So, for example, a May 13, 2022, report fro CBS News notes:
Kentucky Republican Sen. Rand Paul defied leaders of both parties Thursday and delayed until next week Senate approval of an additional $40 billion to help Ukraine and its allies withstand Russia's three-month old invasion.
With the Senate poised to debate and vote on the package of military and economic aid, Paul denied leaders the unanimous agreement they needed to proceed. The bipartisan measure, backed by President Joe Biden, underscores U.S. determination to reinforce its support for Ukraine's outnumbered forces.
The legislation has been approved overwhelmingly by the House and has strong bipartisan support in the Senate. Final passage is not in doubt.
Even so, Paul's objection was a departure from the overwhelming sentiment in Congress in favor of quickly helping Ukraine, as it fights to withstand Vladimir Putin's brutal invasion and tries to discourage him from escalating the war.
It was also a rebellion against his fellow Kentucky Republican, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who on Thursday had called on "both sides" to "help us pass this urgent funding bill today."
Paul, a libertarian who often opposes U.S. intervention abroad, said he wanted language inserted into the bill, without a vote, that would have an inspector general scrutinize the new spending. He has a long history of demanding last-minute changes by holding up or threatening to delay bills on the brink of passage, including measures dealing with lynching, sanctioning Russia, preventing a federal shutdown, the defense budget, government surveillance and providing health care to the Sept. 11 attack first responders.
I would like to give a little advice to the US:
if you want your allies to be always solicitous and zealous, do not boycott their economic interests.
No destabilizations, no blowing up of pipelines.
I have some advice for Italy.
Don't rush to embrace every deadly
dictator bent on conquest & carnage.
It turns out my country is in the NATO.
But ready to switch sides to Putin if
conquest expands beyond Ukraine?
PureX
Veteran Member
The issue is that Putin won't stop because he can't be seen as having failed. This won't be over until he's dead, and his successor can blame the whole mess on him and put a stop to it. As long as he's alive, he will continue to throw lives and military assets at a hopeless cause. And we will have to continue helping Ukraine fight this assault off.The longer this goes on, the more people will grow weary of it.
Even in the U.S., the cracks are starting to show: Paul will hold up any spending stopgap that includes Ukraine funding
Rand Paul is right about Ukraine aid - Washington Examiner
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) took to the Senate floor Wednesday to voice his opposition to sending further aid to the Ukrainian military. “I will not consent to expedited passage of any spending bill that provides any more American aid to Ukraine,” Paul said. “It is as if no one has noticed that we have nowww.washingtonexaminer.com
It appears that the initial fearmongering about Russia's supposed plans to conquer Europe and dominate the world is starting to wane. They can't even conquer Ukraine, so the early fears that they would attack Poland or the Baltics don't seem like they'll ever come to fruition. So, the original reasons for sending aid to Ukraine don't really seem to apply anymore. Russia has reached the end of the line, and they can't go any further.
Americans will tend to expect American politicians to care about America. "What about our nation?" is a question we'll see more and more of, if this continues. This could also have an effect on next year's elections. The Democrats in 2024 could end up like the Democrats in 1968, when the party faced disarray and dissension, all over a war that was 10,000 miles away.
The longer it goes on, the weaker the Russian military becomes. The weaker Putin becomes. The end is the end of Putin. And only the Russians, themselves, will decide when that will be.
Putin wasn't even able to have the total control of those regions.
Russia has never been a threat because it is surrounded by NATO countries.
Russia has been & is a threat.
It attacked Ukraine.
It threatens to attack others.
It threatens using nuclear weapons against NATO.
I agree about Rand Paul, although the political divides in the U.S. are definitely at issue these days. We have 8 days left before a government shutdown. The U.S. is not exactly in top form these days. It's not so much about Rand Paul himself, as he (like Trump) is a symptom of deeper problems which have plagued us since the Reagan years.
At this point, it appears this war is at a stalemate and it's a war of attrition now. A possible endgame which seems realistic would be a cease-fire where neither side concedes anything, but with both sides remaining where they are, which would then become something similar to the border between North and South Korea. It may not be the ideal situation, but realistically, what are the options here? A lot of people are saying that we can't just let Putin keep conquered territories, but "we" may not have much of a choice in this matter - unless we want escalate the conflict.
This will likely be an issue in the next election, including congressional and senatorial elections. The article noted that 62% of Democrats still support aid to Ukraine (compared to 29% of Republicans), although when it comes to Democrats and war, it's not a very simple or clear-cut issue. I sense a certain kind of "cavalier" attitude among many, which seems common among many at the start of a conflict (just as it was after 9/11) - although eventually that starts to fade away, which is when people start to ask the harder questions.
The U.S. is not exactly in the best of shape either at this point. The big winner in all of this might end up being China. Isolation by the West will cause Russia to become more and more dependent on China. Even if they kick the Russians out of Ukraine, then NATO might gain Ukraine as a member, only to be facing a combined Russian-Chinese alliance.
As for Putin, I've heard some speculation that he has cancer and could be terminally ill, but that was a while back. He seems to have eliminated his rivals and has strong support among the masses, who have no doubt been stoked into an anti-western fervor at this point. Not that they ever really liked us much anyway. But even if Putin dies, I don't think we can expect the Russian people or their leadership to suddenly turn around and supplicate themselves to the West. With China and India waiting in the wings as viable economic and geopolitical partners, they don't really need the West - and neither will China or India, for that matter.
Audie
Veteran Member
That's a when.
A Ukraine win should prevent "if" from becoming "when".
Audie
Veteran Member
Look like an either / or.
Russia is the world's worst imperialist power
and they aren't about to say they have enough
empire.
PureX
Veteran Member
All that support for Putin is mostly just words. Russians by and large support whatever they're told to support, and think little more about it. So if the new leader says Putin screwed up, and the invasion is over, it will be over, and the people will all applaud the new leader's wisdom.
As to our own resolve toward Ukraine, every missile expended is 10 million more dollars in the pockets of the oligarchs that will provide it's replacement. They own the government and the media and they can keep any war going for as long as they want. And they really couldn't care less what the American people think about it because they can control that, easily. Even now the only opposition to supporting Ukraine is just political posturing. But when the oligarchs say "jump to" both sides of the isle will respond "how high and for how long". And when their media blowhards depict the Russian soldiers as child-raping baby murderers the American people will all want to help the Ukrainians obliterate them. Because Americans love nothing in the world more than they love the idea of "killing bad guys"!
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So it appears.
Will the current setback limit future conquest?
Interesting times lie ahead.
I'm not sure if that's a fair characterization of the Russian people. They're not so monolithic or one-dimensional.
In any case, if Putin dies, a "new leader" simply won't just come along and everyone will suddenly follow. A power struggle like that could take years.
It just depends on how long it goes. The public might go along with it for a short war, but when it goes on and on, then diminishing returns start to set in. Then people grow weary of it. And as I said, we're not in the best shape right now. Neither party or faction can take anything for granted at this point.
We're not invulnerable here, and our resources are not limitless. Regardless of where one stands or where one's politics may be, we do have to give some practical consideration to these things, in addition to everything else that's been going on. There's a growing impatience among the public. Some unions have been going on strike, while there are growing numbers of tent cities of homeless people in multiple cities. Crime is up and some cities are facing enormous pressures on multiple issues. That, along with various domestic political uncertainties which make me wonder just how much this country can truly withstand?
Audie
Veteran Member
Keep in mind China has a far better claim
to land in the empire's far east.than the Russian imperialists do. Consider current implications and
watch how it plays out.
Audie
Veteran Member
I saw " pockets of oligarchs" and knew
whose post and the rest of the contents.
China's claim to Taiwan is even less valid
than Putin's to Ukraine. The Taiwan government
is the original one that Mao failed to overthrow
in his revolution. If anything, Taiwan is the
entitled rule of all of China.
But entitlement is irrelevant. Desire & the
power to effect goals are what count.