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Poland Stops Providing Ukraine with New Weapons, More Calls in Some EU States to Stop Backing Ukraine

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
In fact, a lot of countries around the world seem to favor some sort of cease fire or end to the hostilities. The practical move right now is to make a deal, but it's all this zeal and bravado that "we must never yield" and "we must fight to last man," along with a virtual blank check of U.S. support that keeps this thing going. It's easy to say "stand or die" by those who have no intention of actually doing it themselves.
It's always a question whether to fight the war,
surrender, appease, or bargain. Many wanted
to let Hitler carve out his piece of the globe
to avoid more violence. We each have our
opinions about where to draw the line.
Some are more pro Russia, & even dream of
resurrecting the Soviet Empire. Others oppose
that outcome. Everyone picks a side.

The WW2 controversy explained in 40 seconds....
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Looks like you are believing the anti-NATO propaganda.
In Europe speaking of war or of sending weapons makes you lose the elections.

It has happened to every single politician who spoke of war, warfare, etc...

:)
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Interesting charts and reading:
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
In Europe speaking of war or of sending weapons makes you lose the elections.
Unless they are rigged like Russia's elections.

Do you have any data that your claim is true? How would sending aid to Ukraine to defend against Russian aggression be something Europeans are against? Could it be that the energy crisis is swaying some attitudes because those people are threatened due to dependence on Russia's gas? To my mind putin was clever in exploiting this dependence when invading Ukraine. No doubt Europe is as eager for putin to be eliminated as Ukraine is.
It has happened to every single politician who spoke of war, warfare, etc...

:)
That's a cliam, where is your evidence? Fewer smiley faces, more evidence.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's an old song but still relevant to me. Do the Russians love their children too?

I'm sure they do. That song came out in 1984, which was around the same time when public opinion and the entertainment industry crossed over from anti-war to pro-war. Sammy Hagar released a song called "VOA," with the same kind of propagandistic feel to it:



You in the middle east, you be on your toes.
We're bound to strike, everybody knows.
Just tell your friends, the USSR
We're gonna, we're gonna crash that party, 'cause they've gone too far, yeah!
We don't like it. (Oh, no!)
We can make it stop (Oh, yeah!)
We won't take it (Uh!)
Let it rock!
When we're together, we're the best.
We think as one, there's no contest.
We've got the power, they know the score.
We'll get so strong there'll be no war.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Unless they are rigged like Russia's elections.

Do you have any data that your claim is true? How would sending aid to Ukraine to defend against Russian aggression be something Europeans are against? Could it be that the energy crisis is swaying some attitudes because those people are threatened due to dependence on Russia's gas? To my mind putin was clever in exploiting this dependence when invading Ukraine. No doubt Europe is as eager for putin to be eliminated as Ukraine is.

That's a cliam, where is your evidence? Fewer smiley faces, more evidence.
Data? Evidence?
We ask creationists the same question.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's always a question whether to fight the war,
surrender, appease, or bargain. Many wanted
to let Hitler carve out his piece of the globe
to avoid more violence. We each have our
opinions about where to draw the line.
Some are more pro Russia, & even dream of
resurrecting the Soviet Empire. Others oppose
that outcome. Everyone picks a side.

The WW2 controversy explained in 40 seconds....

Some people thought the same about Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Korea, etc. - that we must never surrender and that to make any kind of deal would be appeasement or showing weakness or some other intangible abstraction based in speculation. I don't really see it in those terms. This is not some "gang fight" where we have to fight for "street cred." It's not even our turf.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Some people thought the same about Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Korea, etc.
Duh.
That was my point, ie, that it can be difficult
to decide which wars to pursue, which to end,
& when to compromise.
- that we must never surrender and that to make any kind of deal would be appeasement or showing weakness or some other intangible abstraction based in speculation.
Duh again.
There are certainly people who think that way.
Do you oppose helping Ukraine because of
such thoughts?

I don't really see it in those terms. This is not some "gang fight" where we have to fight for "street cred."
Is that all you think Ukraine's defense
against Russian invasion is?
It's not even our turf.
The question is whether the fight could
come to our shores, & should preventive
measures start beforehand. Don't dismiss
the possibility when considering how to
respond to such aggression.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Duh.
That was my point, ie, that it can be difficult
to decide which wars to pursue, which to end,
& when to compromise.

Exactly, which is why such decisions should never be made lightly or in a cavalier manner. It requires careful, objective, detached, and practical thinking not rooted in fear, anger, or hysteria.

Duh again.
There are certainly people who think that way.
Do you oppose helping Ukraine because of
such thoughts?

No, but I don't see that it would be appeasement or showing weakness if we called for a negotiated truce. It's the best way to stop the current bloodbath that's going on. It might save some lives, both Ukrainian and Russian lives. I can't see what's wrong with wanting to save lives. I really don't.

Is that all you think Ukraine's defense
against Russian invasion is?

No, quite the contrary, but that's how some people seem to be portraying it. Especially when they speak of ambiguous perceptions like "appeasement" and "showing weakness." It's almost as if some people look at the world as some kind of "jungle" - packs of wild dogs. I don't generally look at the world that way, which is why my viewpoint might be at variance with the current mainstream Western narrative. It doesn't mean that I'm taking sides, although as a humanist, I tend to favor peaceful resolutions which might be more conducive to saving lives.

It might be different if some of our military geniuses could actually offer up some workable, viable "secret plan" to win the war with their desired outcome. If they could come up with some quick, easy plan that would expend the fewest lives possible - and one that could actually have a chance at working, then by all means, let's go for it.

In other words, if you can win, then go ahead and do it. And if you can't do it, then you might have to look at other options.

The question is whether the fight could
come to our shores, & should preventive
measures start beforehand. Don't dismiss
the possibility when considering how to
respond to such aggression.

I'll admit that anything is possible. We can't really predict the future, but we can try to anticipate possibilities based on past events and hypothetical scenarios and speculation. It also needs to be put in context of the nations involved, their own history, and what we know about their traditional national security perceptions.

Besides that, Putin would be signing his own death warrant if he attacked a NATO country and triggered the whole alliance against him. We can certainly take measures to defend our shores if ever and whenever necessary. And we also have an obligation to defend our NATO allies, which Russia is fully aware of. So, based on historical knowledge and the current geopolitical configuration, I would say it's extremely unlikely that Putin would attack any NATO country or other U.S. ally - regardless of whatever may occur in Ukraine.

It doesn't appear that Russia could go any further now anyway, though it also appears that Ukraine will not be pushing the Russians out of there any time soon. Stalemate. So, what do they do? Keep fighting and killing each other for no territorial gain whatsoever? That's just needless killing and destruction. Russia's population is more than three times larger than Ukraine, and their resource and industrial base are enough to sustain them for the long haul, even despite Western sanctions. Even as hobbled and struggling as they appear to be, they're in a far better position, strategically, in terms of enduring a war of attrition than Ukraine is at present, even with Western aid.

Also, it's been made clear that the U.S. will not send its own military forces to Ukraine to fight the Russians, which would effectively put us at war with Russia - and increase the dimensions of the war to global proportions. Then, we would have to be watching our shores, such as the shores of Alaska (for starters, but the entire US would be under threat). Since that's off the table and not an option, then we're kind of stuck in this kind of pickle.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Exactly, which is why such decisions should never be made lightly or in a cavalier manner. It requires careful, objective, detached, and practical thinking not rooted in fear, anger, or hysteria.
....or indecision, timidity, & giving up one's values.
No, but I don't see that it would be appeasement or showing weakness if we called for a negotiated truce.
There is still the risk that Putin & potential successors
would see gains made as worth the cost. And they'd
learn from failures in Ukraine.
It's the best way to stop the current bloodbath that's going on. It might save some lives, both Ukrainian and Russian lives. I can't see what's wrong with wanting to save lives. I really don't.
The risks posed by Russia & China being
emboldened from seeing that conquest
works, albeit imperfectly & with high costs.
No, quite the contrary, but that's how some people seem to be portraying it. Especially when they speak of ambiguous perceptions like "appeasement" and "showing weakness." It's almost as if some people look at the world as some kind of "jungle" - packs of wild dogs. I don't generally look at the world that way, which is why my viewpoint might be at variance with the current mainstream Western narrative. It doesn't mean that I'm taking sides, although as a humanist, I tend to favor peaceful resolutions which might be more conducive to saving lives.
And don't forget that some people speak positively
about Russia's defending Christendom from western
decadence, & countering the threat of NATO invasion
of Russia. Yet more have dreamed of recapturing
Russian & even Soviet glory.
But productive discussion isn't served by listing the
unreasonable things that un-named people say, are
we, eh.
It might be different if some of our military geniuses could actually offer up some workable, viable "secret plan" to win the war with their desired outcome. If they could come up with some quick, easy plan that would expend the fewest lives possible - and one that could actually have a chance at working, then by all means, let's go for it.

In other words, if you can win, then go ahead and do it. And if you can't do it, then you might have to look at other options.
Such things aren't currently known.
I'll admit that anything is possible.
That view isn't useful.
What matters is what's likely.

We can't really predict the future, but we can try to anticipate possibilities based on past events and hypothetical scenarios and speculation. It also needs to be put in context of the nations involved, their own history, and what we know about their traditional national security perceptions.
Of course.

Besides that, Putin would be signing his own death warrant if he attacked a NATO country and triggered the whole alliance against him. We can certainly take measures to defend our shores if ever and whenever necessary. And we also have an obligation to defend our NATO allies, which Russia is fully aware of. So, based on historical knowledge and the current geopolitical configuration, I would say it's extremely unlikely that Putin would attack any NATO country or other U.S. ally - regardless of whatever may occur in Ukraine.


It doesn't appear that Russia could go any further now anyway, though it also appears that Ukraine will not be pushing the Russians out of there any time soon. Stalemate. So, what do they do? Keep fighting and killing each other for no territorial gain whatsoever? That's just needless killing and destruction. Russia's population is more than three times larger than Ukraine, and their resource and industrial base are enough to sustain them for the long haul, even despite Western sanctions. Even as hobbled and struggling as they appear to be, they're in a far better position, strategically, in terms of enduring a war of attrition than Ukraine is at present, even with Western aid.

Also, it's been made clear that the U.S. will not send its own military forces to Ukraine to fight the Russians, which would effectively put us at war with Russia - and increase the dimensions of the war to global proportions. Then, we would have to be watching our shores, such as the shores of Alaska (for starters, but the entire US would be under threat). Since that's off the table and not an option, then we're kind of stuck in this kind of pickle.
You can argue all the reasons Russia will win,
or Russia deserves to win, or Russia deserves
the taken territory, or that Ukraine should give
it up.
But everyone will have their different values,
estimations, & plans. I approve of Ukraine's
self defense, & approve of materiel aid.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
....or indecision, timidity, & giving up one's values.

I guess it's just a matter of how one looks at it. But geography also plays a role in it as well.

There is still the risk that Putin & potential successors
would see gains made as worth the cost. And they'd
learn from failures in Ukraine.

The risks posed by Russia & China being
emboldened from seeing that conquest
works, albeit imperfectly & with high costs.

We've had a mostly adversarial relationship with both China and Russia for quite some time. Through most of that time, we have held the upper hand. We all have substantial nuclear arsenals.

Are there risks from China and Russia "being emboldened from seeing that conquest works"? It seems that what this implies is a test of power and resolve. If they have aspirations of conquest or territorial expansion, then the implication is that the West must respond in such a way so as to demonstrate that we have a force as strong as or stronger than theirs and that we have the resolve to use it if they cross the line.

It was similar during the Cold War. But there were some failures as well, such as with the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Nicaragua, stalemate in Korea. You win some, you lose some. But in the end, the West probably won a lot more, with the addition of the former Warsaw Pact states joining NATO, along with three former Soviet Republics. We can learn from this as well, but overall, I think the U.S. and Allied geopolitical position is in pretty good shape overall.

Also, in the Pacific Rim, the U.S. has been shoring up its alliances from Australia to Japan. But there are still a number of areas that are outside of our alliance system and might have warmer relations with China or Russia. Even within our own hemisphere. We can't control everything, but our geopolitical position is strong enough at present that the risks you refer to are extremely marginal. Unless Putin is a complete and utter madman, in which case we all probably would be glowing in the dark by now.

You can argue all the reasons Russia will win,
or Russia deserves to win, or Russia deserves
the taken territory, or that Ukraine should give
it up.
But everyone will have their different values,
estimations, & plans. I approve of Ukraine's
self defense, & approve of materiel aid.

It's not a question of who "deserves to win." "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it." It's more a question of what's actually happening and whether they can find some sort of peaceful resolution to this conflict.
 
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