Islam vs western values

[Shadow Wolf]

I dunno, seems like it would be to me - the sort of intense light that causes sunburn, blindness, and injury. Darkness gets an unnecessarily bad wrap. Darkness can't hurt you - it's the absence of energy - but light? It's light you've gotta watch out for.

As I ginger I must agree. Also being autistic with sensitive eyes, yeah, all that light and brightness is way overrated. Light should help you, not blind you and cause you physical pain.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

May you judge less the lives of others and instead focus on judging your own.

Someone who supports slavery needs judged harshly.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Someone who supports slavery needs judged harshly.

As I said, this thread reminds me of my first post on RF when I was around the same age range as the OP. The softer, more detailed responses ended up doing far more to get me thinking and reconsidering some of my positions than the harsher and terse ones did.

 

[Quintessence]

Someone who supports slavery needs judged harshly.

Why? What would be the point? What benefit would that have to me, and more importantly, to them?

 

[Father Heathen]

As I said, this thread reminds me of my first post on RF when I was around the same age range as the OP. The softer, more detailed responses ended up doing far more to get me thinking and reconsidering some of my positions than the harsher and terse ones did.

On a rational level I know this is true, but it's one of my weaknesses.

 

[Pro Gamer]

The contradiction in what you are saying appears to be lost on you in my opinion.

what's the contradiction

 

[Pro Gamer]

One can determine whether the consequence is *demonstrably* harmful without going circular in my opinion.

what is harmful for someone can be beneficial for someone else

 

[Pro Gamer]

What are Islamic values?

shariah

 

[Pro Gamer]

It has changed. What the Ottomans practiced and believed, they'd call many modern Muslims heretics, just as modern Muslims in places like Afghanistan or Tunesia would consider the old Caliphate heretical.

No, our vision of good is here to stay for the long run. After all, ancient Greece laid the bedrock foundations of Western society, making it significantly older than Islam. It's rare for cultures to regress amd slidebackwards in such ways, and when it happens it's usually because they're forced to.


No. It changed Islam. Such as, in times past male homosexuality wasn't so frowned upon. Afterall, Mehmed II/the Conquerer was probably bi, if not gay, and was known for having very close relationships with some men (he seemed especially fond of the brotherof Vald Dracul III, Radu the Handsome).

you won't see any modern muslim claiming that lgbt or nudity is allowed in islam. they just claim that they personally believe it to be acceptable but they never claim it to be islamic. i don't see any greek of past accepting lgbt or nudity or feminism or whatever it's just newly invented thing that will fade away soon and we muslims are already taking over the west just look at france. Mehmed II was poisoned by his people probably because of being gay or whatever

 

[Pro Gamer]

Did Allah create the murderers, or was it personal choice?

Some men are born with the neural architecture, pathways, and gating of a female, and vice versa. This can be visualized on various types of X-rays and brain scans.They did not choose their wiring or anatomy. God made them that way.
So why did God make individuals He would condemn?

Islam and Islamic values do change. Compare pre and post Al Ghazali; pre and post Abdul Wahab. Compare Kabul or Bhagdad in the '70s and today. Very different.

As for good and evil, most people today would find the values and actions of many of the ancients extremely unjust and cruel.

allah created them as babies and later they started becoming murderers. you won't see a baby being a murderer or gay or whatever. btw do you think i trust western studies? I find it interesting that whenever westerns discover a new "morality", there comes a research to support but not vice versa. there was never a case when research was established first then morality was changed according to the research. people in pre-post ghazzali and pre-post abdul wahab believed in same shariah. basic things about shariah such as hand cutting,slashing etc were same

 

[Pro Gamer]

Well, to start with - Islam had a beginning, like so many other religions, so never 'always stood'. Many religions are older than Islam, and it has diverged perhaps as much as so many other religions - Sunni and Shia being notable splits (and still causing friction), and such occurring right at the beginning of its own forming.

How Muslims behave is not uniform across cultures and countries either, given that dress codes are optional for many Muslims living in the more progressive nations but where we have countries like Iran or even Afghanistan where the strictest dress codes are imposed on the female population - and varying implementation of such dress codes in between. We also have many Muslims apparently living in countries where homosexuality and other such are accepted and tolerated but where in other (predominantly authoritarian religious) countries such is illegal or where many could face criminal charges - even as to the death penalty.

So Islam is not some uniform and exceptional religion as you would like to depict it to be - and this is not even going into the history of Islam being just as violent and involved in wars as so many other religions have been. So why would anyone who wasn't wielding an axe for Islam not see Islam as just another religious belief - even if it had as much truth or usefulness as many others might?

At 18, if this is your age, you just come across as an indoctrinated and less knowledgeable person, and perhaps one who hasn't lived amongst those enjoying considerable more freedoms, tolerance, and/or benefits than one might have in many Muslim countries. Like to answer why the movement of Muslims is more to these more free countries than in the reverse direction?

iran is a shia country but you see same hijab and burkha imposed there so basic laws that came from the quran are same everywhere. also country laws have nothing to do with islamic laws so i live in a country where dress is not imposed but ask anyone on the street and they would claim that it is better to wear burkha because islamic beliefs are same out there. all of your western freedoms will fade away soon

 

[Pro Gamer]

Everything changes. You think Islamic culture, thought and practice in Al-Andalus was identical to that of the Ottoman Calipha, or the Arabian Peninsula?

you are comparing empires not religion

 

[Shadow Wolf]

i don't see any greek of past accepting lgbt or nudity or feminism

Male-male sex was a bit common amongst the Greeks, with pedastry being a norm (we fortunately learned better). Nudity is common on their statues. And Spartan women had quite a bit of social power, enforced by the idea that only Spartan women can give birth to Spartan men (amd Spartan men had lots of sex with each other).

 

[Pro Gamer]

It has not changed has it? You think the splitting of Islam into Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi etc is not change? Do you think the abolition of the post of the Caliph is not change? You think the abolition of slavery, accepted in the Quran and the Hadiths is not change? The contours of the religion has changed immensely from its beginnings in the tribal communities of Arabia and it will continue to do so for whatever time it continues to be a live faith tradition among the people. And how long that will be is something that no one, not even you, can know.

ahmadis are not muslims and sunni-shia have same beliefs about the basics of the religion. we don't have a caliph or empire but that's political change not religious. slavery was not abolished by muslims but by the westerns and we still believe slavery is a good thing

 

[Pro Gamer]

It was made by a medical professional.

That he was (or wasn't) a muslim has literally nothing to do with that.
The formula wasn't found in the quran.
It wasn't revealed by allah.
His muslim-ness had no impact at all on that work.

If it even was a muslim to begin with, off course.
Also: there are multiple corona vaccines made, not just one. So the bare statement alone that "the" vaccine was made by "a" muslim, already is problematic in terms of intellectual honesty.

And to end with: that invalid one-liner served only as a major dodge of the point that was actually made, which you didn't address.

i am saying you guys take it from the muslims and take credit for yourself especially america

 

[Shadow Wolf]

we muslims are already taking over the west just look at france.

The place that banned Islamic face coverings?
Are you a troll?

 

[Pro Gamer]

There is nothing about saying ,"red is red" that demonstrates that Islam is good or true or worthwhile. Islam could last for the rest of the existence of the universe and that would still not demonstrate that it was good or true or worthwhile.

well islam can hold on its own unlike your western values

 

[Pro Gamer]

There is nothing about saying ,"red is red" that demonstrates that Islam is good or true or worthwhile. Islam could last for the rest of the existence of the universe and that would still not demonstrate that it was good or true or worthwhile.

well islam can hold on its own unlike your western values

 

[Pro Gamer]

Male-male sex was a bit common amongst the Greeks, with pedastry being a norm (we fortunately learned better). Nudity is common on their statues. And Spartan women had quite a bit of social power, enforced by the idea that only Spartan women can give birth to Spartan men (amd Spartan men had lots of sex with each other).

some elite kings did it but it was never common in society

 

[Pro Gamer]

The place that banned Islamic face coverings?
Are you a troll?

have you not seen riots in france? either you are a troll or an ignorant person