Islam vs western values

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you don't like western society, then why do you use, watch, or participate in things that have originated from it, such as the internet and soccer?

Or live in the West.

 

[Audie]

what dark ages? Islamic values existed in 7th century and the same shariah is existing right now. it will exist in future as well but your western morality won't survive the test of time

My western morality? I'm Chinese.

7th century you say. I am so impressed.
There's trees older than that.

 

[danieldemol]

There were many cultural values and systems in past that were lost in time but Islam always stood. all the western morality you are claiming right now might be seen as immoral in future because cultural values change over time and western values will fade away as well but Islam will always stand. in next hundred years you might not see western liberalism or feminism or whatever but i can gurantee you that Islamic values will remain in next thousand years as well because Islam never changes

Islamic values change in my view, just ask Muslims of earlier vs later times if slavery is acceptable

 

[danieldemol]

i think christianity and other religions are already lost. christianity has changed to fit liberalist,lgbt and whatever but you won't see muslims accepting those things or claiming that to be allowed in islam just to fit in western world. we would never change islam for anything and it can never be changed for anything. it will remain forever while everything else will fade away

Ah so you are Muslim because you are homophobic it would seem in my view.

And yes there are Muslims who claim LGBTQ are acceptable.

Home - Sydney Queer Muslims

Supporting Queer Muslims with social support, counselling services and spiritual education.

sydneyqueermuslims.org.au

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you don't like western society, then why do you use, watch, or participate in things that have originated from it, such as the internet and soccer?

Or live in the West.

I don't associate with religiously motivated demonization of "Western morality" (which is a nebulous and ill-defined term many Islamic fundamentalists use to dismiss and denigrate secularism and religious pluralism), but I think it's entirely possible to appreciate and like certain aspects or products of a society while disliking others. This applies to all societies, not just Western ones.

Of course, the whole idea of treating LGBT rights, gender equality, secularism, etc., as synonymous with the "West" while depicting the latter as the antithesis of morality is worn out and insulting both to Western people and to non-Western ones who support these rights and freedoms, because it implies the former are immoral and the latter are mindless clones rather than people who have arrived at these positions after contemplation.

 

[danieldemol]

i don't need to be alive to know that something that stood for 1450 years despite all the oppositons will stand another thousand or million years in future. i live my life islamically

Hinduism stood for much longer than 1450 years, according to your logic that should mean it will last forever although your logic contradicts your explicit statements in other posts in my view

 

[Audie]

I don't associate with religiously motivated demonization of "Western morality" (which is a nebulous and ill-defined term many Islamic fundamentalists use to dismiss and denigrate secularism and religious pluralism), but I think it's entirely possible to appreciate and like certain aspects or products of a society while disliking others. This applies to all societies, not just Western ones.

Of course, the whole idea of treating LGBT rights, gender equality, secularism, etc., as synonymous with the "West" while depicting the latter as the antithesis of morality is worn out and insulting both to Western people and to non-Western ones who support these rights and freedoms, because it implies the former are immoral and the latter are mindless clones rather than people who have arrived at these positions after contemplation.

Glorifying bigotry / prejudice as holy godliness
is sick and repugnant

 

[Debater Slayer]

i think christianity and other religions are already lost. christianity has changed to fit liberalist,lgbt and whatever but you won't see muslims accepting those things or claiming that to be allowed in islam just to fit in western world. we would never change islam for anything and it can never be changed for anything. it will remain forever while everything else will fade away

There are Muslims who support LGBT rights and gender equality. Islamic interpretations are quite diverse, even if some of them are met with a lot of hostility and dismissal from fundamentalist schools of thought.

Also, these values are not exclusive to Western countries or to people who live there (or to people who try to "fit into" a Western country) either. There are Muslims and non-Muslims who have these positions while living outside the West. Not everyone who disagrees with fundamentalist and mainstream interpretations is just copying values and beliefs from Western societies—which have their own share of anti-LGBT and sexist movements—and that specific notion is frequently used to denigrate and minimize secularists in the Muslim world while doubling as a way to overgeneralize about and demonize the "West." Many people think about these subjects and decide that hardline fundamentalism is incompatible with coexistence and multiple basic human rights.

 

[Pro Gamer]

Why would any care about your proclamations and guarantees about an unknown future?

it has never changed so why would it change in future. even western bombs and missiles coming towards middle east could not shake their iman or change their religion

 

[Pro Gamer]

If you don't like western society, then why do you use, watch, or participate in things that have originated from it, such as the internet and soccer?

yeah corona vaccine was made by a muslim

 

[Pro Gamer]

My western morality? I'm Chinese.

7th century you say. I am so impressed.
There's trees older than that.

yeah trees stood for longer than your chinese laws but you can't say it for islam because islam is still standing

 

[Pro Gamer]

Ah so you are Muslim because you are homophobic it would seem in my view.

And yes there are Muslims who claim LGBTQ are acceptable.

Home - Sydney Queer Muslims

Supporting Queer Muslims with social support, counselling services and spiritual education.

sydneyqueermuslims.org.au

ask any muslim on street of the non western world and they would say that lgbtq are not acceptable and slavery is good

 

[Pro Gamer]

Hinduism stood for much longer than 1450 years, according to your logic that should mean it will last forever although your logic contradicts your explicit statements in other posts in my view

hindusm? it has changed a lot over time and there is no such thing as hindu laws. all they have are beliefs in some guy who does belly dances whenever he is angry

 

[Pro Gamer]

That is literally not something that you are capable of guaranteeing.

But even if you could.

There is nothing about something lasting a long time that means that it is good or true or worthwhile.

"red is red" that would not change over time and islam would not change over time because truth doesn't change but everything about the west will change. we have seen in history that those values don't last long

 

[Valjean]

i think christianity and other religions are already lost. christianity has changed to fit liberalist,lgbt and whatever but you won't see muslims accepting those things or claiming that to be allowed in islam just to fit in western world. we would never change islam for anything and it can never be changed for anything. it will remain forever while everything else will fade away.

"Liberalist?" So liberty is unislamic. OK, I can understand that, given the etymology of the word.
Accepting LGBT? What do you mean by accepting? These aren't choices. They're facts. Facts don't go away just because you don't accept them.
Moreover, who made these people L. B. G. or T? Isn't it God's work? Are you saying Muslims won't accept the work of Allah?

i don't need to be alive to know that something that stood for 1450 years despite all the oppositons will stand another thousand or million years in future. i live my life islamically

So age confers truth, and immutability? I don't think this follows. Everything changes, even Islam.
Islam had its golden age, but it degenerated into fundamentalism, stifling intellectual and technological progress. This, in my opinion, was not a good thing.

what dark ages? Islamic values existed in 7th century and the same shariah is existing right now. it will exist in future as well but your western morality won't survive the test of time

Values change, even Abrahamic values.
The Abrahamic religions are founded on Divine Command. Right and wrong, and proper behavior, are whatever God deems them to be, regardless of their effects of consequences. Judaism and Christianity have liberalized, and adopted a great deal of consequentialist and expedient morality. You seem to advocate a fundamentalism that I+ disagree with.

I believe good and evil are defined by their consequences, and must reflect objective reality. What is unkind or harmful is bad. What is kind and beneficial is good. God doesn't enter into the equation, as his will, and even existence, are unclear.
The happiest and most prosperous societies today are the least religious, yet you seem to regard them as defective and failures.
Are you basing your theology on facts, or mythology?

 

[danieldemol]

ask any muslim on street of the non western world and they would say that lgbtq are not acceptable and slavery is good

Well I would be interested to see a scientific survey on these 2 questions in the Islamic world if you have one.

But my impression is that what you say about these things is true.

Having said that, it is interesting that the Quran condemns those who blindly imitate their forefathers;

'they say: “Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers.” What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?'

Source: Surah Al-Baqarah, سورة البقرة | Chapter 2, سورة ٢ | Quran Yusuf Ali, قرآن يوسف علي

So your saying that Islam withstood 1450 years of change is just an alternative way of saying you found your forefathers following it in my view.

Therefore I propose a test of wisdom to be judged using the independent standard of science and reason.

Can you justify slavery and opposition to LGBTQ folk using reason?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

i think christianity and other religions are already lost. christianity has changed to fit liberalist,lgbt and whatever but you won't see muslims accepting those things or claiming that to be allowed in islam just to fit in western world. we would never change islam for anything and it can never be changed for anything. it will remain forever while everything else will fade away

Except, historically speaking it has changed a.d has not had a uniform or universal approach over the years.
In 1,000 organized religion, which includes Islam, will probably be gone. Afterall, it took a violent revolution to change Iran from what it was just a few decades ago into the extremely repressive state it is today.
And there's also the reality how Western colonization influenced Islam into something that doesn't match what the Ottoman's practiced. And it's a tragedy that many Muslims, especially those of Muslim countries, have turned their noses to education like the Muslims of the past simply did not.

ask any muslim on street of the non western world and they would say that lgbtq are not acceptable and slavery is good

Then those views deserve to go extinct. Slavery is terrible, and anyone who says it's good cannot rightfully call themselves a good person.
Amd fortunately most of the world has abolished it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hollow and empty words with no depth or substance. All religions believe themselves to be infallible and perennial, but such beliefs only have value to those who hold them.

And some natural political (and philsophical systems) believe the same. It has nothing to do with the belief in the suoernatural in the end, but rather it is a certain general psychological schema, which some people hold regrardless of religion or not.

The joke is that my religion is falible and relative. So in effect you are wrong.
In effect your claim is absolute and not fallible, but rather perenninal as it is so for all times and all relgions.

 

[Pro Gamer]

"Liberalist?" So liberty is unislamic. OK, I can understand that, given the etymology of the word.
Accepting LGBT? What do you mean by accepting? These aren't choices. They're facts. Facts don't go away just because you don't accept them.
Moreover, who made these people L. B. G. or T? Isn't it God's work? Are you saying Muslims won't accept the work of Allah?

So age confers truth, and immutability? I don't think this follows. Everything changes, even Islam.
Islam had its golden age, but it degenerated into fundamentalism, stifling intellectual and technological progress. This, in my opinion, was not a good thing.

Values change, even Abrahamic values.
The Abrahamic religions are founded on Divine Command. Right and wrong, and proper behavior, are whatever God deems them to be, regardless of their effects of consequences. Judaism and Christianity have liberalized, and adopted a great deal of consequentialist and expedient morality. You seem to advocate a fundamentalism that I+ disagree with.

I believe good and evil are defined by their consequences, and must reflect objective reality. What is unkind or harmful is bad. What is kind and beneficial is good. God doesn't enter into the equation, as his will, and even existence, are unclear.
The happiest and most prosperous societies today are the least religious, yet you seem to regard them as defective and failures.
Are you basing your theology on facts, or mythology?

what facts? murders are facts as well but accepting them as moral is what i am talking about here. islamic beliefs and shariah were the same in the golden age as it is now. show me what islamic values changed. you can't determine good or evil based on the consequences because then you will have to determine whether the consequence is good or evil which is literally going circular

 

[Pro Gamer]

Well I would be interested to see a scientific survey on these 2 questions in the Islamic world if you have one.

But my impression is that what you say about these things is true.

Having said that, it is interesting that the Quran condemns those who blindly imitate their forefathers;

'they say: “Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers.” What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?'

Source: Surah Al-Baqarah, سورة البقرة | Chapter 2, سورة ٢ | Quran Yusuf Ali, قرآن يوسف علي

So your saying that Islam withstood 1450 years of change is just an alternative way of saying you found your forefathers following it in my view.

Therefore I propose a test of wisdom to be judged using the independent standard of science and reason.

Can you justify slavery and opposition to LGBTQ folk using reason?

it's not blindly following any forefather. we don't care about forefathers. we follow the same quran that people in 7th century followed