Nobody Wants to Work

[Revoltingest]

Since Revoltingest won't answer the question, I'm curious what the rest of you would suggest that we do as a nation with the millions of unemployed and unemployable citizens we have now created.

I missed that question.
(I often skip the rest of your posts when they begin a certain way.)
But I've already answered it numerous times.
- Unconditional Universal Basic Income.
- Government paid for health care.
- More mental health care.

So I wouldn't do anything with them.
They'd decide what to do for themselves.

 

[PureX]

The construction of a massive amount of monasteries, where people would go to both be behave and opt out. That's one possible solution

What good is a monestery to a junkie? What good is a junkie to a monestery? Or the mentally ill? Or the hopelessly nihilistic? They are not looking for God, or peace. They are seeking oblivion.

 

[PureX]

I would first wonder as to whether they're *all* completely broken and unsalvageable. No doubt some are, but there might be those who can recover under the right conditions. But I would agree with the idea that they should be offered some sort of humane care and shelter of some sort - better than languishing in homelessness and dying in the streets. No strings attached, no sermons, no pretense of "turning your life around" when everyone knows that's never going to happen. Free booze and drugs to be able to get high until they die makes it sound like a kind of "addict hospice," but perhaps that's the least among many evils.

Not all, but bear in mind that only 1 out of every 64 junkies will ever get clean, and stay clean. Only 1 of every 32 alcoholics will ever get sober and stay sober. And these are 30 year old stats. The power of drugs now days is far increased. And they are far more debilitating and addictive. These folks are not coming back into functional society. Some of the mentally ill could be, but they require a lot of health care and oversight that no one wants to pay for. And all of these folks have already been rejected for employment, except for menial jobs that no one wants, and no one can live on. This is what happens when profitability matters more than people.

And their numbers are growing every day. They are literally the walking dead. Yet are you seeing any hope at all that our current plutocracy is going to even acknowledge that they exist, let alone provide them with food, clothing, shelter, security and drugs while they die? And is that even the kind of society we want to become? Is serving our greed really that important to us? Or is it just that important to the people we have allowed to take control of everything?

 

[Stevicus]

Not all, but bear in mind that only 1 out of every 64 junkies will ever get clean, and stay clean. Only 1 of every 32 alcoholics will ever get sober and stay sober. And these are 30 year old stats. The power of drugs now days is far increased. And they are far more debilitating and addictive. These folks are not coming back into functional society. Some of the mentally ill could be, but they require a lot of health care and oversight that no one wants to pay for. And all of these folks have already been rejected for employment, except for menial jobs that no one wants, and no one can live on. This is what happens when profitability matters more than people.

And their numbers are growing every day. They are literally the walking dead. Yet are you seeing any hope at all that our current plutocracy is going to even acknowledge that they exist, let alone provide them with food, clothing, shelter, security and drugs while they die? And is that even the kind of society we want to become? Is serving our greed really that important to us? Or is it just that important to the people we have allowed to take control of everything?

I'm not sure what our current plutocracy even thinks or what they're willing to acknowledge or do for the society. My mistake in previous years was in believing that they were mostly practical, rational, smart businesspeople who would recognize that a lot of what we're seeing is "bad for business." I look around my own city; I see city streets strewn with potholes and cracks - way overdue for maintenance and repair. I see boarded up businesses and other signs of economic decline. Homeless people carrying signs on every street corner.

Based on the policies which our government and both parties seem to favor, it appears that the ruling establishment of this country is focused on squeezing as much wealth as they can out of America, and then abandoning it at some point. Just some Wall Street gangsters hostilely taking over a corporation, looting it of all its assets, and then spitting it out. They obviously don't care if the cities turn to crap or the roads fall apart or the bridges collapse. They don't care if the homeless, sick, and/or addicted die in the streets, and they don't care that others are gunning each other down. They don't care if people get proper healthcare, and they don't care if children get a decent, viable education that can give them the skills they need to be productive members of society.

Regardless of what the politicians say or what anyone thinks they're trying to do, the results speak for themselves and are visible to anyone with eyes and ears. I know that what I see when I look around my own region is repeated all over the country.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not all, but bear in mind that only 1 out of every 64 junkies will ever get clean, and stay clean. Only 1 of every 32 alcoholics will ever get sober and stay sober. And these are 30 year old stats. The power of drugs now days is far increased. And they are far more debilitating and addictive. These folks are not coming back into functional society. Some of the mentally ill could be, but they require a lot of health care and oversight that no one wants to pay for. And all of these folks have already been rejected for employment, except for menial jobs that no one wants, and no one can live on. This is what happens when profitability matters more than people.

And their numbers are growing every day. They are literally the walking dead. Yet are you seeing any hope at all that our current plutocracy is going to even acknowledge that they exist, let alone provide them with food, clothing, shelter, security and drugs while they die? And is that even the kind of society we want to become? Is serving our greed really that important to us? Or is it just that important to the people we have allowed to take control of everything?

Your planet sounds terrible.

 

[PureX]

I'm not sure what our current plutocracy even thinks or what they're willing to acknowledge or do for the society. My mistake in previous years was in believing that they were mostly practical, rational, smart businesspeople who would recognize that a lot of what we're seeing is "bad for business." I look around my own city; I see city streets strewn with potholes and cracks - way overdue for maintenance and repair. I see boarded up businesses and other signs of economic decline. Homeless people carrying signs on every street corner.

Based on the policies which our government and both parties seem to favor, it appears that the ruling establishment of this country is focused on squeezing as much wealth as they can out of America, and then abandoning it at some point. Just some Wall Street gangsters hostilely taking over a corporation, looting it of all its assets, and then spitting it out. They obviously don't care if the cities turn to crap or the roads fall apart or the bridges collapse. They don't care if the homeless, sick, and/or addicted die in the streets, and they don't care that others are gunning each other down. They don't care if people get proper healthcare, and they don't care if children get a decent, viable education that can give them the skills they need to be productive members of society.

Regardless of what the politicians say or what anyone thinks they're trying to do, the results speak for themselves and are visible to anyone with eyes and ears. I know that what I see when I look around my own region is repeated all over the country.

Yes. Greed is an incredibly stupid motive for life. And yet we have embraced it as a primal virtue in the U.S. and now in most of the world. It turns us against each other in the most elemental ways and yet we think this is a good thing, even as it destroys anyone that has any perceived weakness; the young, the old, the unhealthy or slow-witted. We blame them for being weak, and we dismiss their suffering at the hands of our society's grotesque selfishness as deserved. We have become insane through our embracing greed as a valid way of life. And still we can't see our own insanity even as we see tent cities springing up inside our cities filled with the walking dead. And those same walking dead being our brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and sons and daughters. Too bad for them. They couldn't or wouldn't serve the great money pump and so they now must suffer and die for it. We think the walking dead are the junkies, but we're all just as addicted to serving that money pump as they are to the oblivion we leave them to because they refused.

 

[metis]

Greed is an incredibly stupid motive for life. And yet we have embraced it as a primal virtue in the U.S. and now in most of the world. It turns us against each other in the most elemental ways and yet we think this is a good thing, even as it destroys anyone that has any perceived weakness; the young, the old, the unhealthy or slow-witted.

Max Weber well saw this and covered it in his historic book "The Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism" that feeds materialism and self-centeredness and is a bastardization of the Gospel and Jesus' Sermon On the Mount.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What good is a monestery to a junkie? What good is a junkie to a monestery? Or the mentally ill? Or the hopelessly nihilistic? They are not looking for God, or peace. They are seeking oblivion.

Well I think you have to slow down a little bit here, you are talking about a possible goal and a starting point. The whole idea of a monastery type system, I think, was that belief in god(s), spirituality, or higher sources etc. was emergent from the kind of lifestyle they went to have. The whole idea of the monastery, was that there was a sort of life that you lived there, there were things for you to do, and a schedule for you to have. But it did not center on economic activity. So you get the discipline aspect, minus the capitalist aspect

And on that note, I don't think the kind of belief you have should be especially emphasized in this place, as that was the obsession that I think probably toppled earlier western religion. The foundation of this place, I think, has to instead be about some kind of a disciplined way of life. These people would have things to do, be it farm, maybe build things, write, work out, study etc.

America is supposed to be a melting pot, so it probably would be best if the religious doctrines in the monastery were complied from the 'best of,' of the previous religions and beliefs. The positive writings of atheists and agnostics could be included. And we are also an innovative country, so people might eventually reach the point in the monastery, where they can write their own scriptures and forge unique beliefs. That's what Americanism is sort of about

 

[PureX]

Max Weber well saw this and covered it in his historic book "The Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism" that feeds materialism and self-centeredness and is a bastardization of the Gospel and Jesus' Sermon On the Mount.

But what will it take for us to see what we have become? And what then?

 

[PureX]

I honestly don't see these people living in a monastery. They are completely divorced from the world the rest of humanity lives in. They live to get the next high. And once high, nothing else matters. And the drugs are so powerful and debilitating that they literally become zombies.

 

[PureX]

I missed that question.
(I often skip the rest of your posts when they begin a certain way.)
But I've already answered it numerous times.
- Unconditional Universal Basic Income.
- Government paid for health care.
- More mental health care.

So I wouldn't do anything with them.
They'd decide what to do for themselves.

They already have decided. And you're looking at it (if you're willing to open your eyes). They have decided to pursue oblivion by whatever means they can obtain. They don't care that they have to defacate in the streets, sleep in the streets, sell their bodies and die in the streets. "Freedom" is not their problem, nor their solution. Our culture broke them, with our assent and participation, and now they are our problem to deal with. They are not capable of dealing with anything, themselves.

Also, who is going to pay for this amazing socialist solution of yours? Do you have any idea how many people in this country would need whatever measily income they get supplemented? And as we all see the wealthy among us have no intention of sharing any of what they have, no matter how much they have in excess. And we still have a military and infrastructure to pay for, after we pay all these people to supplement their meager incomes, and cover the cost of their heath care. And this still does nothing for the lost souls we're discussing.

 

[Stevicus]

But what will it take for us to see what we have become? And what then?

Well, there are definitely consequences for social Darwinism, as exemplified by the predatory, dog-eat-dog nature of capitalism. More than just the people have been broken by the culture, since the capitalist culture has damaged the very essence of the social contract. Trust has been broken, and there are consequences for that, too.

We've already seen glimpses of the consequences of unbridled capitalism. The First World War was one such consequence, and that war led to further consequences, such as the Russian Revolution and the rise of Nazi Germany - neither of which would have happened if capitalists could have learned basic human decency. Even then, they still never learned.

I've seen some discussion and rhetoric which would indicate that at least some people are becoming dimly aware of a certain unease in the air. But most don't understand the root cause; they're just focusing on symptoms and symbols.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I honestly don't see these people living in a monastery. They are completely divorced from the world the rest of humanity lives in.

I don't think a third-person view from a car is especially revealing, myself. It's controversial, but there a few big youtube channels dedicated to actually interviewing the homeless, and a common thread in those videos, seems to be that people actually do have some awareness of what they are experiencing. On those channels, they often can talk for a long time, about trying to verbalize what happened to them.

I guess all I suggested was the formation of structured inputs, minus economic participation, and I guess I think people react to the inputs that are in front of them.

 

[PureX]

Well, there are definitely consequences for social Darwinism, as exemplified by the predatory, dog-eat-dog nature of capitalism. More than just the people have been broken by the culture, since the capitalist culture has damaged the very essence of the social contract. Trust has been broken, and there are consequences for that, too.

We've already seen glimpses of the consequences of unbridled capitalism. The First World War was one such consequence, and that war led to further consequences, such as the Russian Revolution and the rise of Nazi Germany - neither of which would have happened if capitalists could have learned basic human decency. Even then, they still never learned.

I've seen some discussion and rhetoric which would indicate that at least some people are becoming dimly aware of a certain unease in the air. But most don't understand the root cause; they're just focusing on symptoms and symbols.

I'm old enough not to expect to live to see the revolution that will be required for our collective survival. I hope it's peaceful, but the rich and powerful are not going to share anything willingly. So it's going to have to be taken from them. And since their reign and their means of control is now global, so will the revolution have to be.

It's a frightening prospect.

 

[Stevicus]

'The most chilling metric of all': Mike Rowe warns that 7 million American men are 'done' looking for work and have 'punched out' — here's why that's a serious problem (msn.com)

Another article on the topic.

Men have been steadily clocking out of the American workforce since pre-pandemic times — even now despite there being millions of job openings and an uncertain economic climate.

While the U.S. labor market remains incredibly tight — with the economy adding another 517,000 jobs in December — around 7 million “prime age” men between the ages of 25 and 54 are reportedly sitting it out.

“They are affirmatively not looking for work. They've punched out. They're done,” TV host Mike Rowe said on The Brian Kilmeade Show, citing research from economist Nick Eberstadt.

“So what's really happening in the country now that scares me right to my core fundamentally is that we've never had so much unrealized opportunity and so little enthusiasm for it.”

Why the workforce participation rate is waning
Eberstadt first noted the decline in the number of men with jobs in his 2016 book, Men Without Work — a trend he says was exacerbated during the COVID-19 pandemic. While plenty of workers were laid off or left due to illness, not all of them returned to the labor force — even after job openings picked up.

The Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank also found that 25% of prime age Americans aren’t currently working — and while some say they’re looking for jobs, but can’t find any, others are actively choosing not to join the job hunt. The report points to reasons like caregiving for an elderly parent or child, health-related concerns, retiring early, going to school or joining the military.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce surveyed Americans who lost their jobs during the pandemic and about a quarter said federal aid incentivized them to not actively look for work, while about half aren’t willing to take jobs that don’t offer the option of remote work. Over a third of younger respondents said they were focusing on learning new skills and prioritizing their personal growth before re-entering the labor force.

There’s a growing gender gap
Eberstadt says a vast majority of these prime-age men spend around 2,000 hours a year on screens, do little housework and don’t spend time volunteering. However, there might be more to the story than men simply slacking off and sitting at home.

The decline of men in the workforce may be partially due to the drop in manufacturing jobs since the 1960s, which have either been automated or moved offshore.

Additionally, research shows that women are more likely to have four-year college degrees compared to men, when postsecondary education typically comes with better employment prospects. Women account for more than half of America’s college educated workforce, according to the Pew Research Center.

College-educated women are now participating in the labor force at the same rate they were before the pandemic, while the share of college-educated men working or actively looking for work has lessened.

Why this is a problem
Rowe calls the decline in male participation in the workforce “the most chilling metric of all” since it’s “an indication of what's to come.”

Reduced labor force participation has already taken its toll on lower-paying industries — the leisure and hospitality sector has seen the highest quit rate since July 2021, and retail isn’t far behind, reports the Chamber of Commerce.

And durable goods manufacturing, wholesale and retail trade and education and health services are contending with a shortage of skilled workers.

This puts more pressure on the remaining employees, who may be dealing with longer hours, tougher responsibilities and burnout.

“Running your workers like this — asking them to do 20%, 30% more because you’re short staffed — it’s very much a short-term strategy. You’re going to keep losing people,” Paige Ouimet, a professor at the University of North Carolina’s Kenan-Flagler Business School, told The Washington Post.

Some employers, like restaurants and airlines, are reportedly offering higher wages, although economists say this could be contributing toward inflation — since higher labor costs can drive up prices.

“The U.S. labor shortage will probably have to be solved by some combination of immigration, automation and recession,” writes Eberstadt in an op-ed for The Washington Post, but adds this is “far from likely to reduce popular angst and discontent.”

 

[PureX]

I don't think a third-person view from a car is especially revealing, myself. It's controversial, but there a few big youtube channels dedicated to actually interviewing the homeless, and a common thread in those videos, seems to be that people actually do have some awareness of what they are experiencing. On those channels, they often can talk for a long time, about trying to verbalize what happened to them.

I guess all I suggested was the formation of structured inputs, minus economic participation, and I guess I think people react to the inputs that are in front of them.

Junkies lie. To themselves, and to everyone else. And they even believe the lies, themselves, much of the time. Addiction is denial, after all. But the recovery stats are the reality of addiction. And they paint a very, very bleak picture.

No one is interviewing a junkie when he's wasted, because it's impossible. And he/she lives for that state. Offer them a few dollars and they'll tell you any tale you want, true or false. Then they'll go get high, and there won't be any interviews or stories, then. That's when you'll see them in the state that they live for. The causes don't matter. The danger of it doesn't matter. The loss of any other kind of life doesn't matter. The promise of a better life doesn't matter. Nothing matters but that sweet oblivion. And when it's over, they immediately begin looking to get it back. By any means available.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Junkies lie. To themselves, and to everyone else. And they even believe the lies, themselves, much of the time. Addiction is denial, after all. But the recovery stats are the reality of addiction. And they paint a very, very bleak picture.

No one is interviewing a junkie when he's wasted, because it's impossible. And he/she lives for that state. Offer them a few dollars and they'll tell you any tale you want, true or false. Then they'll go get high, and there won't be any interviews or stories, then. That's when you'll see them in the state that they live for. The causes don't matter. The danger of it doesn't matter. The loss of any other kind of life doesn't matter. The promise of a better life doesn't matter. Nothing matters but that sweet oblivion. And when it's over, they immediately begin looking to get it back. By any means available.

Hey I get it, bud. I've spent most of my life surrounded by drinkers, and I had a cousin, and a friend, die of heroin overdoses. I have read like 5 books on homelessness. My query here, is just to wonder if an alternative, but functional mode of society would work for these people. Now there was a method, of creating these structured communes in western culture, and they did for over a 1000 years until it fell out of fashion. But if you just want keep doing these rants about how little hope there is with everything, I haven't got much else to say really

 

[Revoltingest]

They already have decided. And you're looking at it (if you're willing to open your eyes).

I'm woke.
I see all.

 

[Stevicus]

I'm old enough not to expect to live to see the revolution that will be required for our collective survival. I hope it's peaceful, but the rich and powerful are not going to share anything willingly. So it's going to have to be taken from them. And since their reign and their means of control is now global, so will the revolution have to be.

It's a frightening prospect.

In a sense, geopolitics is how a "global revolution" might play out, which explains a great deal about the overall world situation. More than 40 years ago, even back when I was a freshman in high school, I had a teacher who correctly stated that the coming battle in the world would be between those who have and those who have not.

Some capitalists seem to be at least somewhat aware that their fortunes and financial empires might be threatened, which explains why more of them seem enamored with the far-right and the tenets of nationalism. They advocate for social and cultural entrenchment and a national security state - because they sense a threat and they want to have the means to defend themselves. And they seemingly have a sizable pool of angst-ridden, disaffected people in this country to recruit from. Moreover, as we see from the article in post #115, a lot of these people will be angry young men - rebels without a cause or a clue, looking for someone to lead them.

 

[PureX]

Hey I get it, bud. I've spent most of my life surrounded by drinkers, and I had a cousin, and a friend, die of heroin overdoses. I have read like 5 books on homelessness. My query here, is just to wonder if an alternative, but functional mode of society would work for these people. Now there was a method, of creating these structured communes in western culture, and they did for over a 1000 years until it fell out of fashion. But if you just want keep doing these rants about how little hope there is with everything, I haven't got much else to say really

Addiction is progressive. People can function while addicted for a time, depending on the drugs being used. And these folks could be placed in an environment like you describe. And most humans addicted or not will act to stay alive as they are able. So I'm sure something could be developed to help them do that. My rant is more aimed at the very many among us that stil think addiction is some sort of moral weakness that could be corrected with the right "stern" incentives. They have no concept of how terminal this disease really is. Nor do they see how brutal our greed based culture has become, already. Or how profound the changes need to be to stop this slide into distopia that we're on.

That's why I repeat myself.

Also, we have reached a point where no solution to this epidemic of drug addiction and the resultant homelessness and unemployability is "good", or even morally acceptable. We're past that, now. At least for those already lost to it. But we could at least try and minimize their suffering, and better still, change the way we live so that far fewer among us get caught up in it in the future.

But I see little hope of any of this happening.