Proof against the existence of God?

[CG Didymus]

I can think of many reasons that why one would think there cannot possibly be a God, but to my knowledge, the Bahai scriptures have an answer for all of then.

For example, problem of evil is one the main reasons that many people think there cannot be a God, to which Bahai scriptures says, this world is like a school to prepare us for the next life, so, if there was no injustice then justice would not make sense. Every good quality can exist of the opposite exists. So, light is meaningful since there is darkness, and if there was no darkness, light would be meaningless. So, for us to gain understanding of what is good and evil, we need a school that tells us both, and that is why God created this world with evil.
Then, many people may day, this world have so much suffering, and thus a kind God is impossible. Then Bahai scriptures answer this, saying this world has tests for believers and punishment for disbelievers so, it can change their heart, or soften their heart by these difficulties and punishments.

Ah, so then God made people with enough of an animal nature that most of them would love the darkness and doing evil rather than believing in an unknowable, unseen God that expects full obedience to his laws, especially his moral laws. And then he punishes them, well not them, but the soul that was within them. Which I guess is fair if the soul did nothing to stop the physical body to from doing evil. But then how perfect is the average soul?

 

[CG Didymus]

The belief in the God of Abraham is founded in the life and Teachings of the Prophets of God. The historicity of Jesus and Muhammad for example has strong evidence. The influence of their Teachings on the course of human history and civilization is clear. The millions who have been positively affected by Jesus and Muhammad is impossible to ignore.

But those Bible stories sound like fairy tales. Elijah flew off into the sky in a fiery chariot? Moses' staff turned into a snake? And I thought Baha'is didn't necessarily believe those stories were literally true? And if not, isn't that fiction?

Then there's just as much bad that came with the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad as there was good. With Jesus, the big influence was that he was the only way for a person to be saved from their sin and avoid being sent to hell along with Satan. Plus, add that people were told that Jesus was God. So, most of the "influence" or things that got people to believe in Christianity, according to Baha'i beliefs, weren't true.

 

[CG Didymus]

So if Christ says ‘love one another’ how can He be blamed if people hate instead? How is it His or God’s fault?

Moses gave the commandment from God ‘Thou shalt not kill’. So how is it God’s fault if people kill? The commandment does not condone killing but opposes it. So I cannot see your rationale in blaming God. If people obeyed God then they would obey the law not to kill and the law to love one another then we would all be living in peace and happiness.

Has religion really been tried? Are we obeying God’s law not to kill or to love one another? Humankind has mostly disobeyed these laws so yes our disobedience to the laws of God clearly has not worked but what if we obey these laws not to kill and to love one another? They will surely work if we obey them.

Here's a quote about Muhammad....

The military career of Muhammad (c. 570 – 8 June 632), the Islamic prophet, encompasses several expeditions and battles throughout the Hejaz region in the western Arabian Peninsula which took place in the final ten years of his life, from 622 to 632. His primary campaign was against his own tribe in Mecca, the Quraysh.​

Then God commanded all the men, woman and children in Jericho killed. God went before the children of Israel into battle. Elijah had the prophets of Baal killed and had God send two bears to kill 42 children that had mocked him.

Why do people in some religions keep killing others? I think they might see it as a righteous cause and not murder.

 

[Trailblazer]

What if He pays back with a good interest rate?

That's be great, but the problem is that we don't even know if He is going to pay it back at all...
All we can do is "believe."

I "believed" that my tenant was going to pay back the $18,000 rent he owed me, but he never did.
Thank God that the federal government landlord assistance program paid me all that money.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Why should God create everyone nicer instead of expecting people to become nicer by themselves?
Since nice people exist, we know it is possible for people to become nicer, if they do what it takes to become nicer."

Did you understand my point about morality and free will? You seem to be evading it.

My answer to your question is that the current system has huge collateral damage to innocent people. If the idea is to set up a training ground, then maybe one where people don't get so hurt when they fail?

I did understand your point, but I cannot understand how that would be possible without God programming all our brains so we would all be nice, in which case we would be like robots, not being nice by choice.

The way we were created was like a blank slate that develops character over time. We inherit genes for certain characteristics and the rest is learned as we grow. Baha'is do not believe that we inherited original sin from Adam and Eve but rather we were all born good. Whatever we become later is because of choices that we make.

I agree that the current system has huge collateral damage to innocent people but I don't see how that can be avoided the way things are now. If everyone followed the teachings and laws of God everyone would be good and there would be no evil in the world. Obviously that is a tall order but Baha'is believe humans will be more like that in the future.

"With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh’s mission to create such a new race of men."
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126)

New Race of Men | Bahá’í Quotes

 

[Heyo]

That's be great, but the problem is that we don't even know if He is going to pay it back at all...
All we can do is "believe."

That's why the German word for creditor is "Gläubiger" (=believer) because they believe they get their money back.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's be great, but the problem is that we don't even know if He is going to pay it back at all...
All we can do is "believe."

I "believed" that my tenant was going to pay back the $18,000 rent he owed me, but he never did.
Thank God that the federal government landlord assistance program paid me all that money.

Well, Baha'u'llah says, don't worry if things in this world are contrary to our wishes. There will be many other worlds, with much goodies. And He also says, if believers knew what is awaiting them, they will suicide to go there soon, so, He cannot disclose it.
Believing Baha'u'llah is something else, but I mean, the Scriptures have answers so, we cannot say, since there are terrible things in this world, there cannot be a God.

 

[Alien826]

I did understand your point, but I cannot understand how that would be possible without God programming all our brains so we would all be nice, in which case we would be like robots, not being nice by choice.

One more try, then I'll drop it. Imagine someone now who is "nice" as any human has ever been, or at least is very much up there. Is that person a robot that doesn't have any free will? I hope you will say "no" to that. Now imagine everyone being as nice as that. Not perfect but the same as this very nice person. Would any of them be robots with no free will? No. That's really all I'm trying to establish. We can be a lot nicer without being robots.

Incidentally, if that were the case, the world would be so incredibly improved that I'd settle for that, and not ask for any heaven.

The way we were created was like a blank slate that develops character over time. We inherit genes for certain characteristics and the rest is learned as we grow. Baha'is do not believe that we inherited original sin from Adam and Eve but rather we were all born good. Whatever we become later is because of choices that we make.

Forget original sin (a ridiculous idea invented to explain why innocents suffer). On the other hand it seems fairly obvious that we are not born good at all. A young child is totally selfish, and can't help it. Conscience develops later, and we need guidance to develop the empathy needed to live in our society. Children of criminal families are taught that crime is good and the police are bad and they believe it.

Incidentally, if what you say is correct, there is no way but down from birth, and the "good" person is just someone who has managed to hang on to some of the "good" he started with.

I agree that the current system has huge collateral damage to innocent people but I don't see how that can be avoided the way things are now. If everyone followed the teachings and laws of God everyone would be good and there would be no evil in the world. Obviously that is a tall order but Baha'is believe humans will be more like that in the future.

How it could have been avoided is if God had started us on a higher rung of the ladder. And if you say "robot" again I'm going to resign from your "most favored atheist" list!

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, Baha'u'llah says, don't worry if things in this world are contrary to our wishes. There will be many other worlds, with much goodies. And He also says, if believers knew what is awaiting them, they will suicide to go there soon, so, He cannot disclose it.

Yes, I know all that practically by heart, but I cannot live for the next world, I have to live in this world. Even Baha'u'lalh said that we should not have our thoughts in the next world.

I am not doing very well at living in this world right now, with little hope for the future. I have some hope sometimes but no hope other times. Hope comes and goes.

Believing Baha'u'llah is something else, but I mean, the Scriptures have answers so, we cannot say, since there are terrible things in this world, there cannot be a God.

No, I would never say that since there are terrible things in this world there cannot be a God, because that makes no sense to think that there would be no terrible things in this world just because there is a God, and of course this world is just a very small part of our total existence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why do people in some religions keep killing others? I think they might see it as a righteous cause and not murder.

Why do people, regardless of religion, keep killing others?

It is people that kill, and not religions.
Sometimes people have no choice .. they are only defending themselves.
Other times, people are looking for power and wealth.

Naturally, satan claims that it is God that is causing it .. of course he would .. he wants us to destroy ourselves and turn away from righteousness.

 

[Trailblazer]

One more try, then I'll drop it. Imagine someone now who is "nice" as any human has ever been, or at least is very much up there. Is that person a robot that doesn't have any free will? I hope you will say "no" to that. Now imagine everyone being as nice as that. Not perfect but the same as this very nice person. Would any of them be robots with no free will? No. That's really all I'm trying to establish. We can be a lot nicer without being robots.

Incidentally, if that were the case, the world would be so incredibly improved that I'd settle for that, and not ask for any heaven.

No, that nice person is not a robot that doesn't have any free will. He is a nice person who got to be nice by making choices to be nice to people and acting nice.

If everyone was as nice as that, not perfect but the same as this very nice person, they would not be robots with no free will. They would be nice people who got to be nice by making choices to be nice to people and acting nice.

Yes, the world would be incredibly improved if everyone was nice to each other.

Forget original sin (a ridiculous idea invented to explain why innocents suffer). On the other hand it seems fairly obvious that we are not born good at all. A young child is totally selfish, and can't help it. Conscience develops later, and we need guidance to develop the empathy needed to live in our society. Children of criminal families are taught that crime is good and the police are bad and they believe it.

Yes, babies are born selfish but that does not mean they are not good. There is nothing "bad" about being selfish when you do not have anyone else to think about, and when you are not responsible for anyone except yourself. Selfishness is "normal" for a baby but not for an adult who has others to think about, be they children or other adults.

You are correct in saying that conscience and empathy develop as children grow older.

Incidentally, if what you say is correct, there is no way but down from birth, and the "good" person is just someone who has managed to hang on to some of the "good" he started with.

No, I do not see it that way. Being born good simply means we were not born evil, as Christians believe. After all we were made in the image of God, who is good. The "good person" is a person who has the potential to reflect the attributes of God. Once born, a person develops over time, and he can either reflect those good attributes or fail to do so and become bad, depending upon the choices he makes in life.

How it could have been avoided is if God had started us on a higher rung of the ladder. And if you say "robot" again I'm going to resign from your "most favored atheist" list!

I am not going to say robot. I am going to say that God started us at the top rung of the ladder since we were all created in the image of God, the highest rung, and since there was no "fall" in the Garden, we all have the same potential to be as good as God, and although nobody can live up to that potential, it is something to shoot for.

 

[Trailblazer]

You must have mistyped that. Didn't you mean that if I awaken to an afterlife, then I will know what I missed out on when I don't get it?

How could you know what you missed out on if you don't get it? Think about it.
No, if you die and realize there is an afterlife you won't know what you missed out on (what you did not get) because you won't "get" what you would have gotten if you had been a believer.

In other words, you will never know what you could have had as a believer because you won't get it.
It's kind of like if I had planned a trip to Europe and it was cancelled I will never know what Europe would have been like if I had gone there.

No, I did not mistype that because the converse is also true. "if this life was all that exists then you would never know what you missed out on by not believing" -- because if this life is all that exists there will be no consciousness after death, so you won't know anything at all.

If I am correct and consciousness is extinguished with death, then I know exactly what I "missed out" on. Hey, I could be on the Internet arguing for the existence of a god which belief evidence contradicts against people who specialize in evaluating evidence. How many hours of scriptural study and the wisdom contained therein have I forfeited to other reading? How many hours of hymns and sermons have I missed sleeping in and then going to Sunday brunch instead? I could be a homophobe.

If I you are correct and consciousness is extinguished with death, then those things you listed might be some of the things that you "missed out" on, but you cannot know that now, since you are not dead yet. You will only know, or not know anything, after you die. There is no sneak peak, you have to wait till the curtain call comes.

What do you think I might have missed out on living outside of theism if this life is the end? I'm happy without religion and am comfortable with the possibility that we live in a godless universe. What could religion or a god belief for such a person?

I can only tell you what I think you will miss out on by not being a believer in very general terms, according to Baha'u'llah, but I don't know exactly how that will pan out in the afterlife because God alone has that knowledge.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

What do you think I might have missed out on living inside of theism if this life is the end? Certainly nothing that I want. I do not want to live for the material world and all it has to offer. I do not want to drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, and have indiscriminate sex. What else can't I do as a theist?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Wrath is why some don’t believe in God, but for me it is Gods duty to save wrath, and sorrow, and that is why we are here under God’s watchful eye. Pleasure can wait, we are here to save people. The problem of evil goes down when you show that wrath is part of our nature and omnipotence can only save you. Omni choose to be a friend to wrath to save it from damnation, it was by far the clear choice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So atheists believe things for which there is no evidence. Hence the claim that they don't believe in gods for the reason that there is no evidence, is bogus.

You make zero sense. That's not even remotely what I said.

And now I'm also convinced that you are trolling.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How could you know what you missed out on if you don't get it?

But I did get it. And later I left it, like a movie I walked out on.

It's kind of like if I had planned a trip to Europe and it was cancelled I will never know what Europe would have been like if I had gone there.

To make the analogy more apt, assume that you had previously lived in Europe for a decade.

I can only tell you what I think you will miss out on by not being a believer in very general terms, according to Baha'u'llah

Thanks, but that wouldn't be of value to me. Baha'u'llah's opinions aren't authoritative to me, and he's not here to defend them. If you tell me in your terms, I'll address that.

What do you think I might have missed out on living inside of theism if this life is the end? Certainly nothing that I want. I do not want to live for the material world and all it has to offer. I do not want to drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, and have indiscriminate sex.

You have an interesting idea of what the world has to offer. But how would you know what that would be if your information about it comes from a book advising you to avoid it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good reply, but

• not all those were irreligious or at least not openly. They used
• 1. There is a god.
  2. It is on our side.
  3. Now lets go kill a bunch of people.
• the others were irreligious but not pacifist. They used

1. There is no god but your country.
   
2. Your country wants you to fight.
   
3. Now lets go kill a bunch of people.

Note how you can distract if you are not leading with the important message?​

That’s where people need to be mature enough not be be conned or bluffed into doing something against their own teachings. In the past the priests held control over everyone but now that is disappearing with people able to see what they are teach8ngs is false.

In the recent protests in Iran women were openly denouncing the priests decrees saying ‘this is not Islam’ whereas in the past people just blindly followed. extremists and fanatics with some political axe to grind can’t be swayed but the average people are waking up to the lies the clergy has been spreading and are opposing it.

 

[Heyo]

That’s where people need to be mature enough not be be conned or bluffed into doing something against their own teachings. In the past the priests held control over everyone but now that is disappearing with people able to see what they are teach8ngs is false.

In the recent protests in Iran women were openly denouncing the priests decrees saying ‘this is not Islam’ whereas in the past people just blindly followed. extremists and fanatics with some political axe to grind can’t be swayed but the average people are waking up to the lies the clergy has been spreading and are opposing it.

Yes, it took a few centuries but the "sapere aude" of the Enlightenment is getting around. And another thought from that age: "Those who can make us believe absurdities, can make us commit atrocities.".
Not everyone understands what "questioning authority" means. Some question real experts when they don't know how they got to their expert status, some question authorities who they themselves have voted into power, but at least many question those who claim to have authority from gods, either by questioning the gods or by questioning the power to give authority.
When we agree that ideas have to stand on their own and agree that we are capable to give them authority, the need and the importance of religion becomes obsolete. Then we are able to agree that killing is bad without deciding who's god is the real one first.

 

[Alien826]

How could you know what you missed out on if you don't get it? Think about it.
No, if you die and realize there is an afterlife you won't know what you missed out on (what you did not get) because you won't "get" what you would have gotten if you had been a believer.

In other words, you will never know what you could have had as a believer because you won't get it.
It's kind of like if I had planned a trip to Europe and it was cancelled I will never know what Europe would have been like if I had gone there.

Darn, I was meaning to get to our discussion about being nice, but this distracted me. I'll get to it.

This reminds me of two things. One, my parents saying "You'll never know what you have missed out on by not being good" (my sins were spelled out in more detail). They were referring to things they would have done for me, not some spiritual reward. My reaction was, that seemed like a convenient way to punish me without actually having to do so, because I could never know what I was missing out on in order to decide if that mattered to me.

The second is a silly joke that I'll insert to lighten the mood. Two Catholic priests are in heaven where they discover that the rewards are different types of car to drive around in. One is very sad because he got a mini and his friend got a Rolls Royce. Later they meet again and the priest in the mini is all smiles. He says, "I just saw the Pope on a skateboard".

To the point, you seem to be saying we won't be told what the different levels of reward are. Don't people talk to each other? Can't we just see what people have? Why won't God simply tell us, I thought all the mystery ended at the gates of heaven. I know there is no way you can answer that, it just seemed a bit odd to me.

What do you think I might have missed out on living inside of theism if this life is the end? Certainly nothing that I want. I do not want to live for the material world and all it has to offer. I do not want to drink alcohol, take recreational drugs, and have indiscriminate sex. What else can't I do as a theist?

I'll take the alcohol and indiscriminate sex. Not too worried about the hard drugs, though I've often wondered what LSD is like.

More to the point, I'd miss out on having to be sooooo serious all the time.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What... lower God to a loving spouse or devoted friend!
Actually yes, I do... but not just me.

God compares himself to a husband of a wife - his people, so that he even said, that anyone touching them is figuratively touching his eyeball.
They were that precious to him, and he cherished them as a husband cherishes a beloved wife.
Sadly, they were unfaithful, like an adulterous wife, prostituting herself.

Spoiler: References

Isaiah 54:5, 6; Isaiah 62:4; Jeremiah 3:20

God also considers faithful ones his friend.

Spoiler: References

2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23

His love for his people if far greater than any relationship on earth, because Jehovah is loyal, and always will be.
We are usually disloyal, and unfaithful.

I think people take that "all-loving" concept to a disconnected level, but I believe it's a way of creating a dilemma... I usuall call it a strawman.
It's designed to make an argument easy for them to hide behind... imo.

Spoiler

I never actually saw all-loving in the Bible, so I don't know where it came from, other than people's ideas.
If they are referring to 1 John 4:8 - God is love, which means obviously that God's very essence is love, so that God's every action must be motivated by love, then yes, I can agree with that.

Sacred Scripture tends to make the incomprehensible something we can grasp through the use of an image or metaphor we call all identify with

The Biblical narrative concerning Jesus as the Son of God speaks of an intimate and loving connection between Christ and the Father. Yet Jesus was not literally the son of God as you and I are sons of our parents. God had no consort and did not take Mary the mother of Jesus as His wife. Yet through the analogy we come to better understand the relationship between God and Jesus.

So while the use of imagery concerning a spouse or friend is there in black and white print, the nature of our relationship with God is anything but.

 

[Trailblazer]

So atheists believe things for which there is no evidence.

What are those things?