Evidence

[John53]

Do you disagree with that? Do you seriously think that anywhere near a majority of the religions make a rational decision which religion to believe?

Choose the same one as your parents or cop a flogging was the popular rationale when I was a kid.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Choose the same one as your parents or cop a flogging was the popular rationale when I was a kid.

It is even worse in the Muslim world. In some countries "apostacy" justifies the death penalty.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/jubilee-campaign-reply-dp.pdf

And it is of course argued for in many more.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hmm, I guess that one could say that is a "rational reason".:

"I don't want to die, I guess that I will remain a Muslim".

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Choose the same one as your parents or cop a flogging was the popular rationale when I was a kid.

That was expected when I was growing up as well. My husband and I made the same mistake when our children were younger, but we were able to rectify it not long after I renounced my Christian faith. We had a long, heartfelt discussion about it together and then with our children not long after I decided to relinquish my personal faith. I won't go into specific details, but I will say that my family is much happier and more content with our lives now that we've freed ourselves to choose our own spiritual paths. I'm glad we did that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you disagree with that?

You said "most religious people rarely seem to give their religion serious thought at all."

We were discussing Muslims, and so you imply "religious Muslims", who would be attending a mosque several times a day, don't take their religion seriously?

It must be a joke!

 

[Trailblazer]

False almost everyone has done so. If you did not understand at the time it was refuted you should have asked questions.

False because nobody has done so. Nothing was ever refuted.
It is as if you are living on another planet.

 

[CG Didymus]

God communicated to some "special" humans, somewhere, sometime. I'm sure you can see how unfair that is to all those non-special people out there. I'm sure some almighty God might be able to figure that out as well.

And if said God supposedly loves us as a parent does, then yes, absolutely people should be whining if their parents are neglecting them.

This could be mostly a Baha'i thing, because in other Abrahamic religions God sends angels/messengers, prophets, gives people signs and other things. Baha'is, I'm guess, don't believe those stories, even though they are in the Scriptures of religions they say are true.

 

[CG Didymus]

That surprised me. I thought you would say that the message was fitted to the people of the time.

Does that mean that Baha'u'llah's message will inevitably be (or has already been) corrupted and a new Messenger will one day be required?

Did Baha'u'llah say anything about why God doesn't prevent the corruption of his message? I ask because some Christians claim that the Bible is infallible because God has preserved it in its original form (something like that).

And Christians show how very little has changed in the Bible, so what do Baha'is think has changed I wonder?

 

[F1fan]

There is no burden of proof if they say that all they have is evidence, not proof.
I have said umpteen million times that I have no proof, only evidence.

I don't know why you keep saying this, evidence IS the same thing as proof. The word proof is more casual than the more formal and concise word: evidence.

proof

noun

evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"​

See, it's the same thing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't know why you keep saying this, evidence IS the same thing as proof.

No, the 2 words are not interchangable.

One does not say "a person is being called to give proof in the witness box".

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know why you keep saying this, evidence IS the same thing as proof. The word proof is more casual than the more formal and concise word: evidence.

proof

noun

evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.

"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"​

See, it's the same thing.

I may be asked to give proof of my identity, but the proof doesn't have to be true, does it? I could present false proof.

 

[YoursTrue]

Let's say someone goes to a government building and they want "proof" of identity. Does that mean the "proof" is true? Not necessarily. But many are willing to accept the 'evidence' as proof. But it doesn't have to be so. False id's and false passports are produced.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You said "most religious people rarely seem to give their religion serious thought at all."

We were discussing Muslims, and so you imply "religious Muslims", who would be attending a mosque several times a day, don't take their religion seriously?

It must be a joke!

I see that you are conflating going to a mosque with seriously considering their religious beliefs. Context must be considered in the our overall discussion.

And seriously, what percentage of Musoi8m men got to the mosque that often. In the US only about 40% go even once a week. Only 18% go more than once a week. When you make such claims you should bre ready to support them,

U.S. Muslims are religiously observant, but open to multiple interpretations of Islam

 

[CG Didymus]

You don't see how it's unfair that God supposedly picks and chooses "special" individuals out of everyone on the planet that this God supposedly loves and cares about?
Sounds unfair to me, in the same way it's unfair for a parent to favour one of their children over the rest.

Baha'is declare that Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses are "manifestations", but more than just those people had interaction and communication with God. But are those stories even real or just myth and legend? Maybe, but the stories of God communicating with Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses are true? Why would they be? And Baha'is don't even believe those Bible stories about these people are literally true. They make up their own versions of the stories. Baha'u'llah story about Noah doesn't even have a flood. And who knows what they say about Adam. So, what are they doing? It seems like whatever it takes to make people believe their story.

Bahá’u’lláh refers to Noah in the Kitab-i-Iqan describing Him as a Prophet who attempted to bring security to His people through His teachings and being persecuted as a result writing:

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him!"[3]

He also noted Noah was attached to material things and the traditions of His forefathers prior to His Revelation describing Him and His followers as being reborn through His acceptance of God's Message:

"For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life."[4]
​

 

[Subduction Zone]

False because nobody has done so. Nothing was ever refuted.
It is as if you are living on another planet.

You know that is not true. but go ahead. Bring up a piece of what you think is reliable evidence. If it fails I will gladly explain to you why it fails.

 

[F1fan]

I may be asked to give proof of my identity, but the proof doesn't have to be true, does it? I could present false proof.

Yes, false evidence, false proof, all the same. You might be 20 and have a fake ID and buying beer, and that's a crime. We have laws and norms for a reason, and it assumes a certain level of honesty and ethics. As we see there are people who don't value honesty and ethics. For example some might claim X is true but in fact there is no credible evidence, or proof (a some say), that it's true. The honest thing would be for the claimant to acknowledge the lack of evidence and concede he, or she, can't prove their claim is true, or even likely true.

Let's say someone goes to a government building and they want "proof" of identity. Does that mean the "proof" is true? Not necessarily. But many are willing to accept the 'evidence' as proof. But it doesn't have to be so. False id's and false passports are produced.

Yes, an ID is evidence of your identity. It might be fake. If it is fake, then your identity isn't proved, is it? That's fraud. Being dishonest is fraud. Lying is fraud. Deception is fraud.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i faith emerged out of Babism which itself emerged out of Shi'a Islam.

Baháʼís believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God, and in the Qurʼan as the Word of God. Bahá'í teachings "affirm that Islam is a true religion revealed by Allah"; accordingly, members of the faith can give full assent to the traditional words of the Shahadah. Muhammad is taken to be one of the most important messengers of God as an "independent" Manifestation of God. Furthermore, Baháʼís believe that the Báb, a central figure in the Baháʼí Faith, was a descendant of Muhammad through Imam Husayn, whose coming was foretold by Muhammad. ʻAbdu'l-Bahá, the son and successor of Baháʼu'lláh, wrote that "His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of his coming."

In the Baháʼí writings Muhammad is known by the titles the "Apostle of God", the "Seal of the Prophets" and the "Day-Star of Truth". Writing of Muhammad, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá states that through God's aid, he was able to unite the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula "to such an extent that one thousand tribes were welded into one tribe". This, he writes, despite the fact that he (Muhammad) was an illiterate man born into a cruel and barbarous culture. He was nevertheless responsible for producing "a book in which, in a perfect and eloquent style. He explained the divine attributes and perfections, the prophethood of the Messengers of God, the divine laws, and some scientific facts." Abdu'l-Baha believed that one of the proofs that the Qurʼan is a product of the divine are the facts about the workings of nature contained therein, facts which he believed were not known in Muhammad's own time. He claimed, for example, that Sura 36 of the Qurʼan depicts a heliocentric understanding of the solar system.​

Muhammad in the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

I agree. The Babi's and Baha'is are very dependent on Shi'a Islam. But, since they are supposed to be the fulfillment of all the other major religions too, how dependent are they on any of the others? Especially Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And seriously, what percentage of Musoi8m men got to the mosque that often. In the US only about 40% go even once a week. Only 18% go more than once a week. When you make such claims you should bre ready to support them,.

What a stupid thing to argue about..

Clearly, I don't agree with your statement, that Muslims haven't given their belief any serious thought.
I would say that most Muslims are convinced that God exists, and they take it seriously when a loved one dies, and pray for them to go to paradise.

The fact that some Muslims might be careless and not pray regularly, does not mean that they don't believe.
It would be a minority, that turn away from God altogether .. and not because of fear of violence .. it would more likely be because of a sexual relationship, or heavy drinking.
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What were we discussing, again?
Oh yeah .. the Qur'an as evidence.
..and how Muslims couldn't show their beliefs to be coherent.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You don't see how it's unfair that God supposedly picks and chooses "special" individuals out of everyone on the planet that this God supposedly loves and cares about?
Sounds unfair to me, in the same way it's unfair for a parent to favour one of their children over the rest.

The Apostle Paul stated in Romans chapter 2, verse 11, that God does not show favoritism. However, this does not appear to be true because the Bible implies that God favors Jews, and it is claimed that he chose specific people, implying that he favored them, to be his messengers to deliver revelations about himself. In my opinion, God isn't as just, loving, or merciful as his followers believe he is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What a stupid thing to argue about..

Clearly, I don't agree with your statement, that Muslims haven't given their belief any serious thought.
I would say that most Muslims are convinced that God exists, and they take it seriously when a loved one dies, and pray for them to go to paradise.

The fact that some Muslims might be careless and not pray regularly, does not mean that they don't believe.
It would be a minority, that turn away from God altogether ,, and not because of fear of violence .. it would more likely be because of a sexual relationship, or heavy drinking.
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What were we discussing, again?
Oh yeah .. the Qur'an as evidence.
..and how Muslims couldn't show their beliefs to be coherent.

Pleas, don't sling the word "stupid" around especially after a post where your repeated your errors. Having a strong belief does not mean that a person has seriously considered his faith. You are trying to change the argument. The vast majority of religious people merely believe. If you ask them if they every seriously considered if others might be right you will hear "No' after "No". Even @Trailblazer admitted, though she does not realize it, that her beliefs are not rational. You dodged the same question. That indicates that you may know that your beliefs are irrational.