Russia v Ukraine who do reckon will win?

[Debater Slayer]

Are Ukrainians and Russians different? They are almost the same people...fighting against each other.
Evil are those who want this war to continue, using Ukrainian soldiers as human shields.

So Russian soldiers aren't used as human shields by those who want the war to continue? People like Putin, that is.

The weaker side has always to surrender...so peace is made and no more life is wasted.

Imagine if the Allies had adopted this logic during their most difficult periods of loss in World War II, or if Indians had just accepted British colonization instead of resisting it.

The logic you're using might work in a jungle, but it should never be accepted by anyone who values human life and rights.

 

[Father Heathen]

Because I trust Orbàn...and by the way... recently Orbàn met Putin.
Orbán: Europe ‘Must Not Succumb to Soros Network’

If you trust people who would have you beaten, imprisoned, or even executed for being trans, then that calls your judgement into question.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are Ukrainians and Russians different? They are almost the same people...fighting against each other.

They're not at all the same.
Different countries with different languages.
But the most significant difference is that one
is a defender, & the other is a vicious aggressor.

 

[Father Heathen]

Are Ukrainians and Russians different?

Yes. Different language, different culture, different identity, etc. That's like asking if Greeks and Italians are any different.

They are almost the same people...fighting against each other.
Evil are those who want this war to continue, using Ukrainian soldiers as human shields.

Trying to steal and occupy another's land is evil. Defending oneself from aggression and warcrimes is not.

The weaker side has always to surrender...so peace is made and no more life is wasted.

You're right. Putin should surrender because he is both morally and militarily weak; his invasion continues to be a faltering failure.
However, by your logic innocent victims should let rapists and robbers commit their crimes with impunity rather than fight back in self defense.

 

[Sirona]

Insulting entire countries as "backward" or "cesspools" has never helped.

Maybe those 140+ million backward Russian savages need the US to bring them a dose of American Freedom (TM) as it did to Vietnam et al.

As an observer from Germany, I acknowledge that Arab states have no reason to hail the U. S. but I spent my first 10 years in Communism and therefore I can say that I rather live on happily with American Freedom (TM) than having those sweet innocent Russians come back.

If Muslims had the potential to spread their "truth" to the kuffar by the way of war I have no doubt that they certainly would as well, but they aren't so they focus on singular misled individuals that can be turned into weapons.

 

[Father Heathen]

So Russian soldiers aren't used as human shields by those who want the war to continue? People like Putin, that is.

Exactly. Russians are being conscripted, and then very poorly trained and equipped, dropped into Ukraine, then dead in less than a week.
And another thing about Russian military: Dedovshchina - Wikipedia

 

[Debater Slayer]

As an observer from Germany, I acknowledge that Arab states have no reason to hail the U. S. but I spent my first 10 years in Communism and therefore I can say that I rather live on happily with American Freedom (TM) than having those sweet innocent Russians come back.

If Muslims had the potential to spread their "truth" to the kuffar by the way of war I have no doubt that they certainly would as well, but they aren't so they focus on singular misled individuals that can be turned into weapons.

As I said, each culture and country has its pros and cons. I would prefer to live in the US over Russia, too, but current domestic freedoms are just one part of a culture, much less one spanning centuries or longer.

There are also a lot of countries I'd prefer to live in over the US, especially after the Trump era.

 

[Father Heathen]

Those who try to paint Ukraine as the bad guy use the same victim blaming logic as rape apologists.

 

[metis]

Because I trust Orbàn...and by the way... recently Orbàn met Putin.
Orbán: Europe ‘Must Not Succumb to Soros Network’

Who is a notorious anti-Semite: Viktor Orbán’s anti-Semitism problem – POLITICO

also: Viktor Orbán and the Anti-Semitic Figyelő Cover - The Atlantic

A Friend to Israel, and to Bigots: Viktor Orban’s ‘Double Game’ on Anti-Semitism - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

 

[Nimos]

Ukraine v Russia who do you think will win?

I don't think Russia can win this.

Them attacking Ukraine unprovoked like this is, is beyond what the western world will accept, so there is going to be a lot of help going to Ukraine as we already see now.

Also, Ukraine's morale is much higher than that of Russia which plays a huge part in how willing people are to fight. The tactic of just throwing in a lot of people to overwhelm an enemy, as Russia has done a lot in wars, doesn't work here as it seems that the losses will simply be too high against a well-equipped army.

I don't think Ukraine as such can beat the Russian army if they really committed to it, but I think they will win in the long run as the Russian people are simply going to have had enough of losing people there. And I do think that Ukraine will manage to throw out all Russian soldiers from Ukraine eventually.

But it will cost a lot of people obviously.

Down the line, there is no doubt that Russia is losing big time here, both politically, economically and in regard to the development of their country over the next many years. They are entering a new dark age as I see it, don't think a lot of countries of this size can afford to be excluded from the west for very long.

 

[Yazata]

Ukraine v Russia who do you think will win?

I don't think that either of them can win.

Ukraine can't defeat Russia, Russia's numerical advantage is too great and Russia has nuclear weapons.

And it's become increasingly clear that Russia can't defeat Ukraine. This second one comes as a surprise to everyone, including Putin. His military advisers told him it would take three days to seize Kyiv and overthrow Ukraine's regime. The US Pentagon estimated that it would take maybe six or seven days. Everyone was surprised by the imcompetence displayed by the Russian army and particularly by its commanders, who seem incapable of learning from their mistakes.

So the war has devolved from a fast-moving war of maneuver, into more of a frozen war of attrition. Russia has the advantage there in that they have a larger population and many thousands of tanks and artllery in storage that they can dust off and throw into battle. Ukraine is largely using the same old Russian equipment, but has far less of it. They only have something like 1/3 as many young men. And Ukraine's economy has been far more devastated by war than Russia's. So definite advantage-Russia in a war-of-attrition.

But Ukraine is receiving military supplies from Europe and the United States. Some of that equipment is proving to be superior to similar Russian equipment. In a few categories, such as ATGMs and long range precision artillery, Ukraine has developed a distinct advantage that they are using very skillfully.

That Western equipment isn't without its problems. Ukraine is receiving small numbers (often only a few dozen) of many different weapon types. Each requires its own skilled operators, technicians, ammunition and spare parts. Any army knows that having too many types and models of weapons in inventory is a logistics nightmare. So there's that.

And there's a possibility that Russia might start receiving Chinese weaponry sometime in the future. It would inevitably come with so many strings attached that the strings would resemble steel cables and would put Russia in China's debt in ways that Moscow doesn't want. China might demand below-market-rate access to Russian resources and raw materials in exchange for war aid. And it would inevitably move Russia towards being a Chinese client-state in ways Russia would never accept.

My own guess is that if the war continues as a protracted war-of-attrition for many months, the situation will gradually evolve in Russia's favor. But it would be in the interest of both Russia and Ukraine to reach some kind of negotiated settlement at some point.

Right now, there's little sign of that. Russia probably hopes to keep things going as the terms of negotiation gradually slip in their favor. And Ukraine is making maximalist demands that Russia withdraw from all of post-1989 Ukraine including Crimea. Which I don't think Russia will ever do. They will defend Crimea with nuclear weapons if need be, they have already said that's their red-line.

Bottom line: I think that we are in for maybe a year's more war, then a negotiated settlement of some kind where Russia keeps Crimea and Ukraine doesn't join nato.

It will be interesting to see if Putin is still in power in Moscow when that day comes, or whether he is removed in some kind of palace coup in the Kremlin. But much as the US would cheer that, chances are that he would just be replaced by a more competent Russian-nationalist hard-liner.

 

[stvdv]

Evil never wins..

True

So Soros' allies will never win.

True again

Why such a hang-up on Soros?

I read this within the context of @Estro Felino her first line "evil never wins"

Truth allies win

Hence indeed Soros allies never win

 

[Yazata]

Evil never wins..

Who or what wins isn't a function of your or my moral judgements. It's a function of more objective factors. In wars, God is on the side of those with the most militarily effective armies.

Of course moral judgements can have rhetorical force. They help sway other people's opinions. And particularly in democracies, public opinion becomes an objective force.

So Soros' allies will never win.

I share a visceral antipathy for George Soros. But as much as he's tried to insert himself into east European politics, I don't think that the question of who wins in the Ukraine War has very much to do with him.

 

[Secret Chief]

Antisemitism: worldwide network of international Jewry, and that ballocks.

Plus, Soros is an anagram of Satan. In Albanian. I read that somewhere.

 

[Secret Chief]

Because I trust Orbàn...and by the way... recently Orbàn met Putin.
Orbán: Europe ‘Must Not Succumb to Soros Network’

One **** meets another ****. So what.

 

[Father Heathen]

True


True again


I read this within the context of @Estro Felino her first line "evil never wins"

Truth allies win

Hence indeed Soros allies never win

So you're saying that the Ukrainian civilians (including children) who were raped, tortured, murdered and tossed into mass graves were evil and got what they deserved, whereas the invasion/occupation force who carried out these acts are the good guys?

 

[Father Heathen]

One **** meets another ****. So what.

I believe @Estro Felino fetishizes dictators and their crimes. The screams from torture chambers might even induce an ASMR response.

 

[sun rise]

Evil never wins..
So Soros' allies will never win.

Soros being a wealthy liberal is obviously evil because God has mandated that the wealthy be right wing conservatives. Got it.

 

[sun rise]

However, I do keep hearing & reading how
Putin still has much support in Russia for
the invasion & war. They really believe that
Ukraine is theirs for the taking, & that death
& destruction are justified.

In the USA, look at the numbers who are taken in by propaganda. I separate those have been hoodwinked and the "puppet masters" who argue in favor of nuclear war, attack any who urge peace, wives who tell husbands to go rape Ukrainian women (real story), torture and steal Ukrainian children, deliberately cause mass suffering in Ukrainian cities, use soldiers as cannon fodder and so forth.

 

[Estro Felino]

Soros being a wealthy liberal is obviously evil because God has mandated that the wealthy be right wing conservatives. Got it.

Wealthy with other people's money
How Did George Soros Break the Bank of England?