Homosexuality and religious.

[mikkel_the_dane]

Im a male married to a Baha’i woman for 43 years. But all are welcome in my home. All are considered equals.

You don't answer the question.

 

[Sheldon]

Like the one that some believe there is no Higher Intelligence or God despite admitting we do not know everything.

Very few atheists make such claims in my experience, however it isn't a superstition obviously, so no not really like that at all.

Until we do know everything there is to know I believe it is unreasonable to rule out the possibility God exists.

This is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, I don't need to rule anything out to note that no one can demonstrate any objective evidence that a deity is even possible. Until they can why would I believe the claim.

Religionists see God in the Prophet

So what? They see multiple deities in multiple prophets, which doesn't suggest their confidence is a reliable way to validate the claim.

and atheists rely on their limited knowledge of the universe in making their assumption.

Atheism is the lack or absence of belief, it need involve no assumptions, so your claims is pretty disingenuous.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for the non existence of all the deities you don't believe exist? So something of an obviously irrational double standard as well on your part.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Describing beging gay as something to be ashamed of, is quite obviously homophobic.

Anything Baha’u’llah states that people disagree is always strongly opposed. A Prophet doesn’t appease and compromise so receives lots of antagonism and hostility.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Circular reasoning fallacy.

How do you know for sure you are right? Your reasoning might be fallacious not mine.

It was a textbook example of a circular reasoning fallacy, you assumed your conclusion in your premise. I know this because I've taken the time to recognise and understand common logical fallacies.

Beyond indicating the obvious fallacy you used, I have no what reasoning of mine you are referring to? However look up the fallacy, then reread your claim, and you can't fail to see you assumed your conclusion in your premise.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Are you a LGBT+?

Im unsure of the question. But they are all equal fellow humans like myself and I welcome them all. I thought you were asking my status. I don’t look at people by their labels. All are one to me. All are accepted. All are precious and loved.

 

[Sheldon]

Like the one

I believe our existence is dependent on following the laws and counsels of the latest Manifestation of God.

I don't care, your belief is subjective and unevidence, and I don't share it, this your claims of its relevance are meaningless to me. The pernicious homophobia however I am morally bound to challenge.

Homosexuality is only one teaching but it is causing people to turn against the Manifestation and that is not good for our future as our well

It may well be, but though I despise such bigotry it has no relevance to my atheism, that is derived from the lack of any objective evidence for any deity.

Atheism and greed are other mindsets which lead us astray.

A pretty obvious false equivalence fallacy, but since there is no objective evidence that atheism harms anyone in any practical way, your bare assertion is again pretty meaningless.

You just keep reeling off bare claims, a lot of Bahai's do this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It was a textbook example of a circular reasoning fallacy, you assumed your conclusion in your premise. I know this because I've taken the time to recognise and understand common logical fallacies.

Beyond indicating the obvious fallacy you used, I have no what reasoning of mine you are referring to? However look up the fallacy, then reread your claim, and you can't fail to see you assumed your conclusion in your premise.

Whether it follows critical thinking or not, human reasoning is imperfect.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The Tablet of Chasity and Purity. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablet of Chastity and Purity (Lawh-i-Tanzíyyih va Taqdís) That is well worth considering.

It begins with the typical substance-free, lofty text, and then goes on to say to avoid tobacco and opium. Why did you think that this was "well worth reading," and why did you think to include it in this thread? Is this being offered as evidence of divine prescience? Did you think that the Baha'i were the first to find tobacco noisome?

"In 1604, King James I wrote ‘A Counterblaste to Tobacco’, in which he described smoking as a ‘custome lothesome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and in the black and stinking fume thereof, nearest resembling the horrible stygian smoke of the pit that is bottomless’."

we Baha’is choose to place our full trust and confidence in the perfection of God instead rather than the error prone human mind.

Your error-prone mind just made an error - choosing to place full trust in the words of a man who says that he speaks for a god. That's an unjustified belief.

It’s because they live in such a spiritually bankrupt world that they just cannot fathom how such a deep love for God can exist.

You must have a different definition of spirituality than I do. There is nothing spiritual about gods or religions that deflect one's attention from nature. It really wasn't possible for me to explore my spiritual potential until I left the religion that continually attempted to redirect my attention from reality to a fantasy world, from what's here and now to what isn't.

God gave us medical science

This would be an example of how religion diminishes spirituality. Nature gave us physics, chemistry, and biology, which generated creatures with technology, who studied reality and ascertained many of its general principles so that he could predict how nature would proceed in a variety of circumstances. And, despite no input coming from any deity, we read that God did this. Our universe did that. There is no deity anywhere to be found, and none seems to be needed. The universe assembled itself naturally, and runs itself without intelligent oversight.

This is analogous to calling rights God-given. Man has no rights until he enumerates and enforces them. Once again, if he were waiting for gods to do that, he'd still be waiting. And there was no science - understanding of nature - until man did studied it.

Baha’is are forbidden to get involved with politics. However recently in a country with a dictatorship some did involve themselves against Baha’i laws resulting in a number of Baha’is being tortured to death and putting the entire Baha’i community in danger. Our laws are there for our benefit.

There's another mistake. Don't you think it a bit odd to try to change the world but avoid politics? How do you see doing that? Prayer? Also, that last sentence seems a little off-putting. Shouldn't the religious laws be for the benefit of the world and not just to keep the Baha'i safe? If those Baha'i were in danger for speaking out, doesn't that mean somebody needs to speak out? Shouldn't those Baha'i have been addressing that matter? If not, what are they doing there besides telling one another platitudes?

Much of humanity’s slow progress i believe has been due to not following the divine laws. Had we done so our energies would have been directed towards improving the quality of life instead of conquering others and fighting wars.

I've already offered my solution. The religions are the anchors to man's progress. It's not a coincidence that the Middle Ages, also called the Age of Faith, was characterized by theocratic monarchies and pseudosciences like astrology and alchemy, and that following the emergence of the principles of humanism came the Enlightenment, also called the Age of Reason, and with it, science and modern secular democracies with guaranteed personal rights transforming subjects into autonomous citizens. That's where science including medical science and human rights come from, not religions. Look at what religion is doing in America in those areas. For decades, stem cell research was banned in the States as more enlightened nations proceeded with the research. Today, reproductive rights are threatened. THAT'S religion - an anchor to progress.

Until we do know everything there is to know I believe it is unreasonable to rule out the possibility God exists. Religionists see God in the Prophet and atheists rely on their limited knowledge of the universe in making their assumption.

You've ruled out the possibility that one particular god doesn't exist. Yet you refer to others as having limited knowledge when they choose atheism. You have no knowledge not available to the world. You have no special senses or neural circuits.

Also, most atheists are agnostic. They haven't ruled gods in or out. Both of those are logical errors. Both.

Human reasoning is flawed you admit. That’s what I have been trying to get across all along, that the idea that there is no God is flawed reasoning.

Your lack of insight here is common with faith-based thought. You can only see the minds of those who choose atheism as flawed. They're the same human minds theists use to decide that gods do exist. Somehow, to you, minds can't be in error when they choose to believe in gods, only when they don't. You discuss flawed human reasoning but seem to see yourself as exempt from error.

 

[Vinayaka]

No not at all. I believe humanity by not turning to Baha’u’llah is depriving itself. But that is my belief.

I'd rather be deprived than homophobic, or so set in my ways there is no possibility of change. I think most of humanity has made a wise choice on this. You were less set in your ways as an atheist, and the proof of that is that you were able to change. Now, in this new paradigm, you're unable to change, to grow.

 

[F1fan]

It depends on the beliefs. Baha’is are forbidden to get involved with politics. However recently in a country with a dictatorship some did involve themselves against Baha’i laws resulting in a number of Baha’is being tortured to death and putting the entire Baha’i community in danger. Our laws are there for our benefit.

So what you are saying is that you have a problem with being targeted against due to prejudice?

So how do the Bahai benefit from a law that targets and prejudices against gays?

 

[Vinayaka]

You don't answer the question.

Did you expect him to? Lower your expectations, my friend, lol.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Did you expect him to? Lower your expectations, my friend, lol.

Here is how I do God. If there is a God, there is no evidence for God and no way to decide which beliefs are correct. So if there is a God, you can only look in this everyday world and choose which inferences to use.
So I act as if all humans have positive value and worth. But the result is the same if I believe in that coming from God or not.
In effect I am a strong deist in that there are no direct way to God, an agnostic for knowledge and an atheist in that I don't need to believe in God. But I can still do a God, I could believe in, but that is in me as I believe and I don't need to believe in God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It begins with the typical substance-free, lofty text, and then goes on to say to avoid tobacco and opium. Why did you think that this was "well worth reading," and why did you think to include it in this thread? Is this being offered as evidence of divine prescience? Did you think that the Baha'i were the first to find tobacco noisome?

"In 1604, King James I wrote ‘A Counterblaste to Tobacco’, in which he described smoking as a ‘custome lothesome to the eye, hateful to the nose, harmful to the brain, dangerous to the lungs, and in the black and stinking fume thereof, nearest resembling the horrible stygian smoke of the pit that is bottomless’."



Your error-prone mind just made an error - choosing to place full trust in the words of a man who says that he speaks for a god. That's an unjustified belief.



You must have a different definition of spirituality than I do. There is nothing spiritual about gods or religions that deflect one's attention from nature. It really wasn't possible for me to explore my spiritual potential until I left the religion that continually attempted to redirect my attention from reality to a fantasy world, from what's here and now to what isn't.



This would be an example of how religion diminishes spirituality. Nature gave us physics, chemistry, and biology, which generated creatures with technology, who studied reality and ascertained many of its general principles so that he could predict how nature would proceed in a variety of circumstances. And, despite no input coming from any deity, we read that God did this. Our universe did that. There is no deity anywhere to be found, and none seems to be needed. The universe assembled itself naturally, and runs itself without intelligent oversight.

This is analogous to calling rights God-given. Man has no rights until he enumerates and enforces them. Once again, if he were waiting for gods to do that, he'd still be waiting. And there was no science - understanding of nature - until man did studied it.



There's another mistake. Don't you think it a bit odd to try to change the world but avoid politics? How do you see doing that? Prayer? Also, that last sentence seems a little off-putting. Shouldn't the religious laws be for the benefit of the world and not just to keep the Baha'i safe? If those Baha'i were in danger for speaking out, doesn't that mean somebody needs to speak out? Shouldn't those Baha'i have been addressing that matter? If not, what are they doing there besides telling one another platitudes?



I've already offered my solution. The religions are the anchors to man's progress. It's not a coincidence that the Middle Ages, also called the Age of Faith, was characterized by theocratic monarchies and pseudosciences like astrology and alchemy, and that following the emergence of the principles of humanism came the Enlightenment, also called the Age of Reason, and with it, science and modern secular democracies with guaranteed personal rights transforming subjects into autonomous citizens. That's where science including medical science and human rights come from, not religions. Look at what religion is doing in America in those areas. For decades, stem cell research was banned in the States as more enlightened nations proceeded with the research. Today, reproductive rights are threatened. THAT'S religion - an anchor to progress.



You've ruled out the possibility that one particular god doesn't exist. Yet you refer to others as having limited knowledge when they choose atheism. You have no knowledge not available to the world. You have no special senses or neural circuits.

Also, most atheists are agnostic. They haven't ruled gods in or out. Both of those are logical errors. Both.



Your lack of insight here is common with faith-based thought. You can only see the minds of those who choose atheism as flawed. They're the same human minds theists use to decide that gods do exist. Somehow, to you, minds can't be in error when they choose to believe in gods, only when they don't. You discuss flawed human reasoning but seem to see yourself as exempt from error.

The human mind I believe is a remarkable tool and used for the betterment of people, an asset to humanity. My mind is just as imperfect and I make mistakes just like any person can.

People I believe are mostly good no matter belief in a God or not. I see in humanity great potential for world peace and harmony if we try and work together. So humanists and religionists no matter what we believe wouldn’t it be more conducive to creating a better world to see the good in each?

If human beings accept our differences and work together I think that would really help. I’m sure there are plenty of good ideas from the atheist humanist Christian Hindu, Muslim and science etc that can improve society and the world. But to me the crucial ingredient is that humanity work together.

As long as people accept each other as equal fellow human beings we people can be united, for the one thing we have is our common humanity.

 

[F1fan]

The human mind I believe is a remarkable tool and used for the betterment of people, an asset to humanity. My mind is just as imperfect and I make mistakes just like any person can.

Is it possible you are mistaken in your religious beliefs?

Is it possible that the god you think exists doesn't?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The human mind I believe is a remarkable tool and used for the betterment of people, an asset to humanity. My mind is just as imperfect and I make mistakes just like any person can.

People I believe are mostly good no matter belief in a God or not. I see in humanity great potential for world peace and harmony if we try and work together. So humanists and religionists no matter what we believe wouldn’t it be more conducive to creating a better world to see the good in each?

If human beings accept our differences and work together I think that would really help. I’m sure there are plenty of good ideas from the atheist humanist Christian Hindu, Muslim and science etc that can improve society and the world. But to me the crucial ingredient is that humanity work together.

As long as people accept each other as equal fellow human beings we people can be united, for the one thing we have is our common humanity.

I see the good in homosexauls and include them as full members of humanity: Do you that as a full member for them or are their membership partial as a member of Bahia?
And I don't accept you to answer that in full. But you could surprise me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here is how I do God. If there is a God, there is no evidence for God and no way to decide which beliefs are correct. So if there is a God, you can only look in this everyday world and choose which inferences to use.
So I act as if all humans have positive value and worth. But the result is the same if I believe in that coming from God or not.
In effect I am a strong deist in that there are no direct way to God, an agnostic for knowledge and an atheist in that I don't need to believe in God. But I can still do a God, I could believe in, but that is in me as I believe and I don't need to believe in God.

I'm a strong theist, but it leans to Deism, in that God isn't anthropomorphic or like a dictator. I am a total atheist to the Abrahamic God. I agree that all humans have positive worth, and that's why folks like us enter discussions like these, to counter the people who discriminate towards certain sections, but deny that they do.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is it possible you are mistaken in your religious beliefs?

Is it possible that the god you think exists doesn't?

Unless you can give objective evidence for what objective reality is in itself, the problem is not limited to religious people.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So what you are saying is that you have a problem with being targeted against due to prejudice?

So how do the Bahai benefit from a law that targets and prejudices against gays?

I was talking about the Baha’i teaching about non involvement in politics. Nothing to do with prejudice against Baha’is. Some did the wrong thing so suffered the consequences.

We consider all peoples as equals. There is no such teaching targeting anyone.

 

[Vinayaka]

The human mind I believe is a remarkable tool and used for the betterment of people, an asset to humanity. My mind is just as imperfect and I make mistakes just like any person can.

People I believe are mostly good no matter belief in a God or not. I see in humanity great potential for world peace and harmony if we try and work together. So humanists and religionists no matter what we believe wouldn’t it be more conducive to creating a better world to see the good in each?

If human beings accept our differences and work together I think that would really help. I’m sure there are plenty of good ideas from the atheist humanist Christian Hindu, Muslim and science etc that can improve society and the world. But to me the crucial ingredient is that humanity work together.

As long as people accept each other as equal fellow human beings we people can be united, for the one thing we have is our common humanity.

If humanity is to work together, we could start by treating them as equals with equal rights. Actions and words don't match sometimes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm a strong theist, but it leans to Deism, in that God isn't anthropomorphic or like a dictator. I am a total atheist to the Abrahamic God. I agree that all humans have positive worth, and that's why folks like us enter discussions like these, to counter the people who discriminate towards certain sec, byut deny that they do.

Yeah, how to deal with individuality is a work that never stops.