Choices

[muhammad_isa]

..I get the feeling that if their Scriptures say Moses, Abraham and the rest were real, then that is "proof" enough for them. And that would go for most believers of Islam and Christianity also. They all need some things in the Bible to be true, like Moses being real, to support their beliefs.

It is not that I NEED it to be true. I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist.
The claim about historical evidence and archeology might suggest that the Bible is incorrect in its details .. but then I don't think that these old texts are reliable or accurate.

How can anybody dig up the whole of Egypt?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is objective evidence for God, the Messengers of God

Wow, it's been a while since I've checked out this thread. This goes back a couple of weeks. But really? The questionable claims of a messenger of God is "objective" proof that God exists? It's a matter of opinion that someone claiming to be a messenger sent by God really is. Is there "objective" evidence that God sent him? Maybe for you, but others wouldn't consider it "objective", "factual" proof. So, for some of us, if the messenger can't be proven with objective facts to be from God, then he can't be "objective" proof that there is a God. If you think Baha'u'llah is for real, and that he is objective proof for God, then fine. But lots of people are still having problems believing Baha'u'llah is really who he claims to be. So, for me, he's not proof that God is real.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not that I NEED it to be true. I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist.
The claim about historical evidence and archeology might suggest that the Bible is incorrect in its details .. but then I don't think that these old texts are reliable or accurate.

How can anybody dig up the whole of Egypt?

Would you be okay with the Bible being myth? And not just things like the Creation story and the Flood, but that Moses is mythical? I know that, because the Baha'is believe Moses was a manifestation of God, that they need him to be real. But then Baha'is say things in the Bible are inaccurate and that some things are metaphorical. But what events in the life of Moses do they make metaphorical? The plaques, his cane turning into a snake, the parting of the seas, following a pillar of smoke during the day, the manna, and other similar things that to me sound like myth. I wonder, when do they start calling things "metaphorical" and when do they end, before there is nothing left? Except the man, Moses?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Would you be okay with the Bible being myth? And not just things like the Creation story and the Flood, but that Moses is mythical?

The Qur'an is claimed to be the literal word of G-d, dictated to Muhammad by angel Gabriel. One either believes this, or thinks that Muhammad was deluded or fraudulent.

The narratives in Qur'an cannot be disproved .. they don't waffle on like the OT.
For example, it is believed that Noah's flood was local, and that the animals on the ark were preserved for Noah, and not for the whole human race.

I wonder, when do they start calling things "metaphorical" and when do they end, before there is nothing left? Except the man, Moses?

You'll have to ask them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You'll have to ask them.

It's all about choices.



Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

His story looking back after destruction by earth reacting not science. But science machine reactions activated change.

As no man is God O the earth science theories.

Agreements. Owned a teacher's given title in ancient science terms.

Orders in olden times wore clothing style to denote understanding. Also used entitled man's namesake as what type of teaching you implied.

Like today theists. Owners of thin king.

Hence just a man can give himself any name he pleases. As just a man and only a man an equal life human is first.

First natural man is highest spiritually.

In science by wisdom men were given a titled teaching value.

So Moses in the past was mans new teacher who was adopted by Egyptian royal family as an agreed discussion humans firstborn natural life was murdered in science was caused.

As they also lost royal babies.

Was written evidence after the fact that pre teachers were already as men imploring the science temple high priests to stop pyramid technique.

Hence striking was noticed in the staff of God in the temple technology as an unnatural change. Scientific relativity advised by it being witnessed.

Changing was notified in the technology as the teaching. Dangerous changes.

So the new teachers advice of warnings don't change gods earth mass was about water. Seen flowing out of the stone as sink holes began occurring.

As above water evaporation ground losses to below. Water conditions.

The Nile changing part of the teaching relativity. The laws of gods holiness changing the teaching. Nile flowed past the royal houses.

Nuclear irradiation advice. Water had changed the reed grasses were dying. Law was changed so man of spirituality was given all advices by fed back visionary messages.

Part of being a Human psychic. Unnatural cause to natural being.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, it's been a while since I've checked out this thread. This goes back a couple of weeks. But really? The questionable claims of a messenger of God is "objective" proof that God exists? It's a matter of opinion that someone claiming to be a messenger sent by God really is. Is there "objective" evidence that God sent him? Maybe for you, but others wouldn't consider it "objective", "factual" proof. So, for some of us, if the messenger can't be proven with objective facts to be from God, then he can't be "objective" proof that there is a God. If you think Baha'u'llah is for real, and that he is objective proof for God, then fine. But lots of people are still having problems believing Baha'u'llah is really who he claims to be. So, for me, he's not proof that God is real.

No, there is no objective evidence that God sent Messengers since there is no objective evidence of God. As such the Messenger can't be proven with objective facts to be from God, so He is not "objective" proof that there is a God. All we have for Baha’u’llah are objective facts surrounding His Person, His Mission (the history of the Baha’i Faith), and His Writings. People are then free to deduce whatever they want to from those facts.

 

[rational experiences]

Reason why Moses was an after summation teaching of man as the teacher.

Did the advice looking back as the adult. Who as a baby had been changed himself by his conditions to be psychic.

Why I know. I nearly died as a baby. We only are the one baby. A human firstborn. To be named the baby. Been psychic ever since.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist.

What does evidence of the non-existence of someone look like exactly? Despite many decades of extensive archaeological excavation, no evidence has been found to support the biblical account of Exodus. A dearth of archaeological evidence where it would have to exists of the Exodus myth were true is quite compelling. if it helps you understand, the people who carried out the archaeological digs were not looking to disprove Exodus, quite the opposite.

"After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archaeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua’s leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua’s fabled military campaigns never occurred--archaeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible."

“Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently,” said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America’s preeminent archeologists.

Dever’s view is emblematic of a fundamental shift in archeology. Three decades ago as a Christian seminary student, he wrote a paper defending the Exodus and got an A, but “no one would do that today,” he says. The old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible--often in excavations by amateur archeologists funded by religious groups--has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles.

But the modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public. In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze’ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua’s conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom.

In a new book this year, “The Bible Unearthed,” Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC--600 years after the Exodus supposedly occurred in 1250 BC--as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory.

Dever argued that the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny."

<LINK>

 

[Shadow11]

You would look to Egyptian history for evidence of Moses.

 

[rational experiences]

In old times Baha'i prove men of science referenced teachings of old science journalled data.

Jesus references.

0AD ground carpenter plate earth tectonic. Major world agreed Jesus teaching. Sealed by vacuum. Space owned earths substances only.

Earth sealed 0 zero never to be changed again.

O God in science was earth only.

Natural life garden nature animals humans owned the life inside heavens.

Which stated no nuclear science allowed.

No human argument was allowed beyond the point of taught science.

So Muslims said they agreed to the new science tribunal. Zero and Jesus.

Counting was for the Year only holy 12 months. Not science by numbers.

Why the Baha'i teacher lost his updated science argument as only the carpenter was Jesus by law.

The asteroid body was a saviour that science owned no control over. No longer was relative advice.

Ice was. As ice had transferred it's mass to earths God body. From the star.

IE. C 100 men.of science said ice owned life existing. Why they taught I am the God saviour by ice itself.

Yet in relativity no man is ice.

As the teaching was holy no argument was allowed. As it was about human living life only.

As the ancient wise man was always dependant on his followers. When new orders proved it would misquote the science relativity taught O one God first no prophets before one.

Science status agreed.

The teachings why mans life was harmed by data reviewed his story...journalled.
HIJ...term AR of RA AH oxygen breath was Jesus taught.

H I J science symbols looking to end Z 2000 answered.

Year 2000 they said would end life's ground sacrifice radiation releasing. Known. Pressures would change.

Once men in science knew that it was proven about why Egyptian pyramids scientists had lied.

Their calculus fake applied the casement pressures that natural earth stone did not own.

Lucky pyramids natural stone survived as earths natural water sealed iced past.

Ice in the past never manifested in earths stone converting as it was too hot.

So it was in transition between asteroid ownership first to God earth inheritance.

God transition of the saviours arrival had been taught. Relative one time only when earth gained it's manifested presence. Ice itself.

O only god the earth one body owned the inherited saviour man hadn't.

Man reasoned why he was still alive after the fact.

What lying as theism science on earth means. You only owned a human man life. You never owned what God had.

Baha'i hence said man owned being the saviour himself was proven wrong in readings. As he gained irradiation effect of fallen star

So he tried to re teach no man was God as no man was the saviour state.

Ice was.

He said earths feedback visionary messages had taught him the warning advices.

2000 terms could not be met as pressure heavens were changed by the fallen star again.

So he taught human behaviour knowing what irradiation does to the brain mind. When it is inherited by man. Russia 1901 event. Minus countdown to destroyer mind emerging in science.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does evidence of the non-existence of someone look like exactly? Despite many decades of extensive archaeological excavation, no evidence has been found to support the biblical account of Exodus. A dearth of archaeological evidence where it would have to exists of the Exodus myth were true is quite compelling. if it helps you understand, the people who carried out the archaeological digs were not looking to disprove Exodus, quite the opposite.

@muhammad_isa said: "I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist."

The biblical account of Exodus does not have to be true in order for Moses to have existed as a real person in history. Whether you believe He was a Messenger of God/Prophet or not is another matter. Such a thing cannot be proven which is why it is a religious belief rather than a fact.

Baha'is believe that Moses was a Messenger of God/Prophet, but we do not believe that Exodus as delineated in the Old Testament represents historical facts.

The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Bahá’í Writings
JoAnn Borovicka
www.JoAnnBorovicka.com
Based on: “The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Baha’i Writings” by JoAnn Borovicka in Lights of ‘Irfan - Book 16
(Bahai-Library.com)

Overview

1: The Exodus Narrative and Theories
The Exodus narrative is an important ancient tradition. There is compelling evidence that the story does not represent literal historical facts.

2: Understanding Bahá’í References
The Bahá’í Writings sometimes refer to the Exodus narrative as if it really happened. These references validate the spiritual truths contained in the scripture; however, they do not validate the story as historical fact.

3: Inner Meanings in the Exodus Narrative
The Exodus narrative contains spiritual truths that are universally relevant.

Read more: https://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf

 

[rational experiences]

Choices of men.
Themes for men a hero.
Comic book character super human warnings.

Theism.

Consciousness.

Ideas of man only as the state heavens. Where consciousness expressed ideas.

O earth the body life stands on. Solid.

Theories time shift only as a bio life consciousness.

Pretends earth body stone can shift into heavens body gas radiation non solids....theoried. To become a non solid.

Super human theory. Falls through planet into out into space. Falls back in by out of heavens. Lands back on a solid earth.

Super egotism of science men proven.

Recorded to envision man's own comedic theories. Known as his true reasonings theist in science.

In reality. He taught I believed I was the earth tectonic carpenter. Preached I was. Preaching false ideas.

Plates opened. Volcanic mass is not gases in heavens. Above ground life time shifted and fell in. Historic science causes.

Water poured in also. Ice came snap frozen fusion. Saved earth. Why huge plates above...have water pouring into sink holes.

I caused it said scientist why machine parts are in fusion and human artefacts prove I did it.

Why time shifting theists are self possessed evil minds. As time shifting is first imposed only to the theist owner. A humans body.

Modern day movie warnings superimpose modern cities falling in as warnings to everyone by psychic impression.

Science is possessed by theisms is a real human condition. Men named them the destroyer for an honest human reasoning.

 

[rational experiences]

@muhammad_isa said: "I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist."

The biblical account of Exodus does not have to be true in order for Moses to have existed as a real person in history. Whether you believe He was a Messenger of God/Prophet or not is another matter. Such a thing cannot be proven which is why it is a religious belief rather than a fact.

Baha'is believe that Moses was a Messenger of God/Prophet, but we do not believe that Exodus as delineated in the Old Testament represents historical facts.

The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Bahá’í Writings
JoAnn Borovicka
www.JoAnnBorovicka.com
Based on: “The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Baha’i Writings” by JoAnn Borovicka in Lights of ‘Irfan - Book 16
(Bahai-Library.com)

Overview

1: The Exodus Narrative and Theories
The Exodus narrative is an important ancient tradition. There is compelling evidence that the story does not represent literal historical facts.

2: Understanding Bahá’í References
The Bahá’í Writings sometimes refer to the Exodus narrative as if it really happened. These references validate the spiritual truths contained in the scripture; however, they do not validate the story as historical fact.

3: Inner Meanings in the Exodus Narrative
The Exodus narrative contains spiritual truths that are universally relevant.

Read more: https://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf

If men as humans thin K basic word explanations first instead of claiming I have or want proof.

O earth exists.
Heavens exists.
Human exists.
Science never existed.

Basic.

Says I am a human man first. Names are not relevant. Teaching as just a man human. Then you would tell a human truth.

Yet man's ego says I patent my thoughts by name use. I gain by name use benefits.

Yet said no man is God. One word God is only acceptable after life was harmed by science practices.

Pyramid temple technology man said was mans first sciences.

No name is acceptable. Was the teaching just God.

Then no book should be preached from and no thesis allowed.

To be spiritually who you are just meant to be.

Then you see how out of control the human ego is.

As a baby born first of human adults. I am holy by their adult human meaning natural purpose.

I am sick dying. I survive. I ask questions. Was taught human science caused it.

I don't need any technical argument I was taught.

The con coercion. Meaning diction ary stated. A human cunning contrivance against humans. Sophisms. Maths science.

Holy female. Adult. My mother of holy man baby life he said

M Ary.
M 1000 looking back calculus time by year only.

Not by maths. By a year time count.

Diction M ARY advice given. Man is wrong.

Meaning of m ary advice.

Words meaning said by men. Men did not own any body they discussed.

Egotism.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Qur'an is claimed to be the literal word of G-d, dictated to Muhammad by angel Gabriel. One either believes this, or thinks that Muhammad was deluded or fraudulent.

And some Jews believe their Bible is the word of God. Christian take the Bible and add on the New Testament and say they are the word of God. Then Islam has the Quran. And Baha'is have their writings. Every one of those religions says they believe in the Bible. But do they take it as literally as the Jews take it? Do the other religions take it as literally as Christians take it? I don't think they do. They all have their own things they believe about it and have alternatives interpretations for some of the things in it.
Then Christians and Jews don't believe the Quran and the Baha'is writings. And what do people in Islam think about the Baha'i writings? Same thing that you said about Muhammad... some believe it, some don't. So where does believing one's Scriptures too literally get us? Arguing why one is right and the other wrong. 'Cause everyone thinks theirs is the right one.

 

[rational experiences]

Fraudulent.

O earth gained it's planet status first in zero space womb.

Planet God is first.

Then it's heavens second

Two.

No human present in the theism vision a human thinking.

Law says the human theist scientist was the criminal. By human choice science.

Was a human teaching for all humans.

Human law was introduced for natural human family forced to live in slavery to civilization. Fraudulent.

Natural law. Humans all equal with gods nature.

Why men can manipulate social law.

 

[Truthseeker]

@muhammad_isa said: "I don't think that anybody can show that Moses didn't exist."

The biblical account of Exodus does not have to be true in order for Moses to have existed as a real person in history. Whether you believe He was a Messenger of God/Prophet or not is another matter. Such a thing cannot be proven which is why it is a religious belief rather than a fact.

Baha'is believe that Moses was a Messenger of God/Prophet, but we do not believe that Exodus as delineated in the Old Testament represents historical facts.

The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Bahá’í Writings
JoAnn Borovicka
www.JoAnnBorovicka.com
Based on: “The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Baha’i Writings” by JoAnn Borovicka in Lights of ‘Irfan - Book 16
(Bahai-Library.com)

Overview

1: The Exodus Narrative and Theories
The Exodus narrative is an important ancient tradition. There is compelling evidence that the story does not represent literal historical facts.

2: Understanding Bahá’í References
The Bahá’í Writings sometimes refer to the Exodus narrative as if it really happened. These references validate the spiritual truths contained in the scripture; however, they do not validate the story as historical fact.

3: Inner Meanings in the Exodus Narrative
The Exodus narrative contains spiritual truths that are universally relevant.

Read more: https://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf

Jo Ann Borovicka was one of my faculty in my course on my Wilmette Course on the Old Testament.

“Certain matters are in reality just stories, but the Divine Manifestations bring them out as though it were truth and discourse upon them.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Amr va Khalq Volume 2, p. 211, provisional translation from the Persian)

“The prophets have indulged the people in regard to their historical notions, folk stories, and scientific principles, and have spoken to them according to these. “They conversed as was appropriate to their audience and hid certain realities behind the curtain of allusion.” (Mírzá Abu'l-Fadl-i-Gulpáygání, Miracles and Metaphors, p. 9)

“Although, in conveying His Revelation, the Manifestation uses the language and culture of the country into which He is born, He is not confined to using terminology with the same connotations as those given to it by His predecessors or contemporaries; He delivers His message in a form which His audience, both immediate and in centuries to come, is capable of grasping.” (Universal House of Justice, “Issues Related to the Study of the Bahá’í Faith” 1998, Bahai-Library.com)

I remember she said revealed something like this in my course. I had already concluded something like that was going on. It was a confirmation, though.

I down loaded this to my computer. Very useful.

 

[night912]

The Qur'an is claimed to be the literal word of G-d, dictated to Muhammad by angel Gabriel. One either believes this, or thinks that Muhammad was deluded or fraudulent.

That's a false dichotomy because there's a third option, Muhammad was wrong/mistaken. Someone can be wrong and/or mistaken and not be deluded. And since they believe that they are right, they're not fraudulent since they have no intention of deception.

 

[night912]

No, there is no objective evidence that God sent Messengers since there is no objective evidence of God. As such the Messenger can't be proven with objective facts to be from God, so He is not "objective" proof that there is a God. All we have for Baha’u’llah are objective facts surrounding His Person, His Mission (the history of the Baha’i Faith), and His Writings. People are then free to deduce whatever they want to from those facts.

This proves that it's not a waste of time to discuss someone's illogical beliefs. If you were able to sway someone away from believing in illogical things, even if it's just a little, then you didn't fail at helping them. It might not happen overnight, everyone is different. So don't be discouraged and think that you are not getting anywhere. If you were able to open the eyes of someone who is extremely closed minded and stubborn, then it was a huge success.

Trailblazer have been arguing for a long time that there were objective evidence to support the existence of her god, but now she has realized and accepted that there are none, then you have made some progress.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's a false dichotomy because there's a third option, Muhammad was wrong/mistaken..

You'd have to explain to me how that could be the case.

How is it possible that Muhammad and his companions could claim that he received revelations from angel Gabriel, being the whole Qur'an over a period of years, and be mistaken?

I can't see how mistakes like that can happen. The Qur'an is ...
well, the Qur'an !
..and it just happens to come at a time when "Rome" had violently persecuted believers in strict monotheism.
It's no coincidence that G-d would send a prophet with practically the same creed as the Jewish creed. A creed that Jesus followed.

If you were G-d, how could you leave mankind without true, clear guidance?
ALL prophets were sent to mankind with the first commandment.
Is G-d jealous of mankind if they worship other than Him?
..not in the human sense of the word.

What is there not to understand?
"THERE IS NO DEITY BUT YHWH, WHO HAS NO PARTNER"

G-d is not in need of mankind.
Anthromorphising G-d and claiming he is envious of gods that only exist in the minds of men [i.e. falsehood], is misbelief.