Capitalism is Killing the Planet

[Guitar's Cry]

I would want a few questions answered:

1) What type of house and where does he live?
2) Does he participate in the capitalism way of making money?
3) How much is his net worth?

I ask these questions because too many times I can't hear what they are saying because what they are doing shouts too loudly.

How a person comports themselves shouldn't interfere with the argument they are making. When this occurs, it becomes an ad hominem.

 

[Polymath257]

First, we are NOT going to kill the planet. Just look at what the planet has been thorugh before:

Cretaceous-Ternary extinction: This is when the dinosaurs died off from a meteor impact and lava flows.

Permian Triassic extinction: about 98% of all life in the ocean went extinct.

There were inland seas in the central US at times.

There are others. But the point is that the *planet* and *life* bounced back from all of these extinction events. Sometimes it took a million years or two, but the planet didn't die. And life continued.

So, saying that we are killing the planet is simply hyperbole.

What we *are* doing is causing another extinction event. And, humans have been doing that for at least 10,000 years when we contributed to the extinctions at the end of the last ice age. We *are* changing the climate in a way that will cause sea level rise. And *that* is making it very uncomfortable for our cities on the coasts.

We are contributing to events that are going to have severe economic impact in ways that will harm billions of people. We are contributing to one of the great extinction events of the history of the Earth.

We might even manage to kill ourselves off.

But if we do, the planet and life will bounce back and in a couple of million years, things will be back to some type of 'normal' without us.

 

[PureX]

First, we are NOT going to kill the planet. Just look at what the planet has been thorugh before:

Cretaceous-Ternary extinction: This is when the dinosaurs died off from a meteor impact and lava flows.

Permian Triassic extinction: about 98% of all life in the ocean went extinct.

There were inland seas in the central US at times.

There are others. But the point is that the *planet* and *life* bounced back from all of these extinction events. Sometimes it took a million years or two, but the planet didn't die. And life continued.

So, saying that we are killing the planet is simply hyperbole.

What we *are* doing is causing another extinction event. And, humans have been doing that for at least 10,000 years when we contributed to the extinctions at the end of the last ice age. We *are* changing the climate in a way that will cause sea level rise. And *that* is making it very uncomfortable for our cities on the coasts.

We are contributing to events that are going to have severe economic impact in ways that will harm billions of people. We are contributing to one of the great extinction events of the history of the Earth.

We might even manage to kill ourselves off.

But if we do, the planet and life will bounce back and in a couple of million years, things will be back to some type of 'normal' without us.

Unless, like Mars, the Earth loses it's atmosphere al together. Or it is altered to a degree that no life can exist here, at all. Not just human life. These scenarios are not impossible.

 

[Polymath257]

Unless, like Mars, the Earth loses it's atmosphere al together. Or it is altered to a degree that no life can exist here, at all. Not just human life. These scenarios are not impossible.

Losing the whole atmosphere is not going to happen, short of us getting much more energetic technology than we currently have. Mars has much less mass and therefore much less gravity to hold onto the atmosphere.

It would be nice to know what happened to its water.

We *might* be able to shift a balance and have the planet spiral in the direction Venus went. But, again, that would take much more than anything we currently have the technology to do.

The Earth has survived temperatures much higher than the worst projections for what we will be able to do. And life flourished in those temperatures.

The problem is NOT that we will kill the Earth. The problem is that we will produce flooding and other effects that will make *us* uncomfortable. We already *are* producing a mass extinction level event. We might even be able to kill ourselves off.

But it's going to be billions of years before the oceans boil away because of changes in the sun. Life will return and flourish again before that happens, probably with many more extinction events in between.

 

[Estro Felino]

First, we are NOT going to kill the planet. Just look at what the planet has been thorugh before:

Cretaceous-Ternary extinction: This is when the dinosaurs died off from a meteor impact and lava flows.

Permian Triassic extinction: about 98% of all life in the ocean went extinct.

There were inland seas in the central US at times.

There are others. But the point is that the *planet* and *life* bounced back from all of these extinction events. Sometimes it took a million years or two, but the planet didn't die. And life continued.

So, saying that we are killing the planet is simply hyperbole.

What we *are* doing is causing another extinction event. And, humans have been doing that for at least 10,000 years when we contributed to the extinctions at the end of the last ice age. We *are* changing the climate in a way that will cause sea level rise. And *that* is making it very uncomfortable for our cities on the coasts.

We are contributing to events that are going to have severe economic impact in ways that will harm billions of people. We are contributing to one of the great extinction events of the history of the Earth.

We might even manage to kill ourselves off.

But if we do, the planet and life will bounce back and in a couple of million years, things will be back to some type of 'normal' without us.

In no geological era there were ca. 8 billion humans, nevertheless.
And this is a given, I guess.

 

[Bodie]

Perhaps he is a hypocrite.

Perhaps? We have all types of welll to do people who love to tell everyone else how to live and what to do while doing the opposite themselves.

 

[metis]

- Capitalism is killing the planet – it’s time to stop buying into our own destruction | George Monbiot

"In consenting to the continued destruction of our life-support systems, we accommodate the desires of the ultra-rich and the powerful corporations they control.

We will endure only if we cease to consent. The 19th-century democracy campaigners knew this, the suffragettes knew it, Gandhi knew it, Martin Luther King knew it. The environmental protesters who demand systemic change have also grasped this fundamental truth .... we see people, mostly young people, refusing to consent. What they understand is history’s most important lesson. Our survival depends on disobedience."

Thoughts?

I agree as it all too often seems like this cut-throat dog-eat-dog competition is a "race to the bottom" as it's a form of "social Darwinism".

 

[Secret Chief]

First, we are NOT going to kill the planet. Just look at what the planet has been thorugh before:

Cretaceous-Ternary extinction: This is when the dinosaurs died off from a meteor impact and lava flows.

Permian Triassic extinction: about 98% of all life in the ocean went extinct.

There were inland seas in the central US at times.

There are others. But the point is that the *planet* and *life* bounced back from all of these extinction events. Sometimes it took a million years or two, but the planet didn't die. And life continued.

So, saying that we are killing the planet is simply hyperbole.

What we *are* doing is causing another extinction event. And, humans have been doing that for at least 10,000 years when we contributed to the extinctions at the end of the last ice age. We *are* changing the climate in a way that will cause sea level rise. And *that* is making it very uncomfortable for our cities on the coasts.

We are contributing to events that are going to have severe economic impact in ways that will harm billions of people. We are contributing to one of the great extinction events of the history of the Earth.

We might even manage to kill ourselves off.

But if we do, the planet and life will bounce back and in a couple of million years, things will be back to some type of 'normal' without us.

I know. Are you comfortable with what humans are doing ie the cause of the sixth great extinction?

 

[Secret Chief]

Perhaps? We have all types of welll to do people who love to tell everyone else how to live and what to do while doing the opposite themselves.

Yes. And what is your opinion on the content of the article?

 

[exchemist]

I would not agree, it is UNCONTROLLED/UNREGULATED capitalism that causes the problem.

It is your central heating, my car, her holiday in the Seychelles, his concrete flooring.....

None of these things is the fault of capitalism, regulated or otherwise. All of us have lifestyles, which we have chosen for ourselves, that create the problem.

What I object to is this business of "othering" the problem, as if it is nothing to do with virtuous Guardian readers. This is just the Leftie version of the denial of responsibility we all see on the Right.

Apart from the hypocrisy, I think it is a huge mistake to try to connect blame for the climate crisis with politics. All that does is make others think it is just another political cause, peddled by the same people they have always disagreed with about politics. That is not the way to get people on board and, even worse, it implies the solution requires some kind of radical change to our economic system, pushing the solution way out into never-never-land, instead of buckling down and getting on with it.

 

[Revoltingest]

- Capitalism is killing the planet – it’s time to stop buying into our own destruction | George Monbiot

"In consenting to the continued destruction of our life-support systems, we accommodate the desires of the ultra-rich and the powerful corporations they control.

We will endure only if we cease to consent. The 19th-century democracy campaigners knew this, the suffragettes knew it, Gandhi knew it, Martin Luther King knew it. The environmental protesters who demand systemic change have also grasped this fundamental truth .... we see people, mostly young people, refusing to consent. What they understand is history’s most important lesson. Our survival depends on disobedience."

Thoughts?

I missed the part of geology & physics classes about capitalism's threat.
Have you ever considered blaming actual causes of problems?

 

[PureX]

The real failure of capitalism and the culture that we are living in that accommodates it is that it's based on competition instead of cooperation.

 

[Revoltingest]

First, we are NOT going to kill the planet. Just look at what the planet has been thorugh before:

Cretaceous-Ternary extinction: This is when the dinosaurs died off from a meteor impact and lava flows.

Permian Triassic extinction: about 98% of all life in the ocean went extinct.

There were inland seas in the central US at times.

There are others. But the point is that the *planet* and *life* bounced back from all of these extinction events. Sometimes it took a million years or two, but the planet didn't die. And life continued.

So, saying that we are killing the planet is simply hyperbole.

What we *are* doing is causing another extinction event. And, humans have been doing that for at least 10,000 years when we contributed to the extinctions at the end of the last ice age. We *are* changing the climate in a way that will cause sea level rise. And *that* is making it very uncomfortable for our cities on the coasts.

We are contributing to events that are going to have severe economic impact in ways that will harm billions of people. We are contributing to one of the great extinction events of the history of the Earth.

We might even manage to kill ourselves off.

But if we do, the planet and life will bounce back and in a couple of million years, things will be back to some type of 'normal' without us.

You're just wrongo pongo.
AOC said so.
She even gave a schedule for Earth's doom....
AOC Countdown to World Destruction

Hey, someone had to post it.

 

[Lain]

Thoughts?

It sounds about right to me, and I agree with the central idea presented in the bottom parts of it. I don't think it'll happen though so I don't worry about these things at all.

 

[icehorse]

I would not agree, it is UNCONTROLLED/UNREGULATED capitalism that causes the problem.

Yes!! Jaron Lanier said (more or less): "All economic systems are man-made machines. All man-made machines of any complexity require monitoring and tweaking."

Why do we pretend that we must choose between - for example - theoretically pure capitalism vs. theoretically pure socialism?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes!! Jaron Lanier said (more or less): "All economic systems are man-made machines. All man-made machines of any complexity require monitoring and tweaking."

Why do we pretend that we must choose between - for example - theoretically pure capitalism vs. theoretically pure socialism?

Aye, both systems exist in countries
that pose environmental problems.

 

[exchemist]

One of the biggest problems with capitalism (the unregulated or badly regulated variety), is that it's extremely pleasing to humans. Some folks can get really rich, while everyone has easy access to lots of fun, delicious, convenient, interesting stuff.

Fast food is a great example. There's no real reason why it can't be healthier and less wasteful, other than it's cheaper to be unhealthy and wasteful, and people are designed to crave fat, salt, and simple carbohydrates. And it's easy and fast! So despite the health dangers and the obvious wastefulness, we keep going with it.

That's true I agree. But it's far too glib to argue by extension that all the things we do that damage the climate are frivolous luxuries and unnecessary lifestyles, sold to us by capitalism. Heating, transport, electric power and construction materials, which are the 4 really big problem areas, are all essentials. Even if we all lived in a communist commune, we would have just the same issues with these.

Scapegoat hunting gets us no further forward and just antagonises sections of the public who we need to engage, so in fact it sets us back.

The problem certainly is that we will all need to give some things up and probably become poorer, at least for a while. It seems to me we do need to refocus on different priorities. We can't allow people who are already poor to become even poorer, so that will mean we will need more wealth transfer from the affluent. We will need to challenge some traditional assumptions about what we need to have - e.g. will city people continue to run cars? Will we still be able to buy beef and lamb to eat? Will we still be able to heat our houses so that we do not need to wear sweaters indoors? Will we be allowed to run air conditioners? It seems to me this requires some real leadership, to introduce people to new ideas about what they aspire to in life and how they measure success. That's quite a challenge. But I think a lot of the changes will make us healthier, so that could be one angle to exploit.

Where I agree with you 100% is that further regulation of business by government is needed, to get the engine of capitalism pulling harder in the right direction (It is already pulling: just look at renewable generation and electric cars.) This is the continuation of the well-established ratchet mechanisms to control capitalism that we have used for over a century, on pollution, competition, safety at work and all the rest of it. We just need to apply the right legislation and enforcement regimes.

 

[Lyndon]

There are no pure socialist countries on earth, China is not even close to pure socialism, Cuba comes maybe as close as you can, but still not pure socialism

 

[Estro Felino]

The real failure of capitalism and the culture that we are living in that accommodates it is that it's based on competition instead of cooperation.

Exactly.

 

[Revoltingest]

One of the biggest problems with capitalism (the unregulated or badly regulated variety), is that it's extremely pleasing to humans. Some folks can get really rich, while everyone has easy access to lots of fun, delicious, convenient, interesting stuff.

Tis a problem I love having.

Note that unregulated & badly regulated socialism
has also posed problems for humans, eg, nuclear
weapons, Chernobyl, pogroms, famines.

There's nothing inherent in capitalism to prevent
better treatment of our environment. I highly
recommend....
- Compostable packaging
- Curbing plastics pollution
- Clean renewable energy
- Clean water, soil, & air
Regulation can steer market solutions to these ends.