Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

Why isn't it something we should work for? Give me one good reason. We work for everything else we get in this life, so why should the message from God be something we do not have to work for?

Big, big problem with most all religious groups... Working for it. Now that you've become a Baha'i, what "work" is expected from you? The obligatory prayers, the fast, maybe participate in your community? Give money? Teach the Cause? Deepen yourself and others? Hold a fireside once in a while? Attend the 19 day Feasts? Or, none of the above?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how do we test a new religion like the Baha'i Faith that claims is has the pure, unadulterated truth from God? We ask for proof. We ask for evidence. Because he was a nice guy and seems trustworthy, and because he said God is real, is not proof. But to "prove" it to oneself? That's different.

No, being a nice guy is not proof, but there is evidence. All you can do is look at the evidence and prove to yourself it is true or false. Nobody can prove it to you.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

So you used logic? The Baha'i Faith makes "logical" sense? That's something we can all look at and see for ourselves. Does it make logical sense that an all-loving God has made all this mess? Sure, if you think that earthquakes, storms, diseases, and animals that hurt or kill humans was a good, loving way to create a world.

The Baha'i Faith makes logical sense to me; i.e. that there is only one true God and many religions that are revealed throughout the ages.

I never said that I believe that God is all-loving. That is a faith-based belief and it can never be proven and it is debatable, given all the suffering we see in this world.

But now, it's going to be different? People are still dying young, dying of horrible diseases, getting killed by other people, dying by floods and earthquakes and hurricanes and such. How has the Baha'i Faith changed things?
How will it change things and make things better? And if people do start loving and caring about one another, will there still be people dying young, dying of horrible diseases and natural disasters? Then those "bad" things are part of God's plan. That's how God designed it. It is almost like he's not there and doesn't care.

No religion can change these things, they are part of life on this planet. We have to accept the good with the bad. However, I think that as time goes on and as science progresses there will be cures for diseases. That is part of God's plan for humanity. It sure feels like He is not there and does not care, to believe He is and does is a faith-based belief.

Baha'is only recognized the "revealed", major religions, which do seem to contradict each other. But you say it is a "fact" that they don't? What are those "facts"?

The Scriptures of each religion do contradict each other. Some Scriptures contradict themselves. But Baha'is, you, have said that people wrote them and people got some of the things wrong. And then "corrupted" the "original" message? So we don't even have the "original" message that, because it was written by people, was probably wrong anyway. But that "corrupted" message is where there are contradictions? But that's all we've got. There are no non-contradictory "original" messages.

That's right, the "corrupted" message is where there are contradictions, there are no contradictions in the "original" messages.

But that's a way to explain away the religions of the past and to still pretend that you believe in them and think that they all came from God. Fine, they were right but now are wrong, and, besides that, they are all in the past and irrelevant, because now we have an uncorrupted, new message from God. Great, and how do we know that?

You do an independent investigation of truth, remember this video?

Again, what was the "original" message? And, you are right... to know that they been "misconstrued" you'd have to know something about those religions and their history. Great, we can do that. Let's look at Hinduism and Buddhism. What do they say? What is their history? What prophecies do they have about the coming of Kalki and Maitreya? And, what does Baha'u'llah, or the Baha'i Faith, say about them? You want to do that? Considering in the past you've said things like "I don't care", I don't think you really do.

No I don't because I have no REASON to look at the past and I consider it illogical to look at the past when we now have a NEW religion. I cannot make you see how illogical it is to keep looking to the past. You say you want to know the truth about Baha'u'llah but you keep looking backward instead of looking at the evidence for Baha'u'llah.

Looking at the older religions is not what God wants me to do, which is one reason i don't do it.

“Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God…” Gleanings, p. 172

So it all comes down to Baha'u'llah and what he wrote. That's the only true message from God we can be sure of? Because it make logical sense? So because it makes logical sense, and in those writings Baha'u'llah says there is a God, therefore, God is real and Baha'u'llah is his manifestation for today. And how is that different than saying, "I believe in God, because Baha'u'llah said so"? And that's your "proof"? If that's all you got, just say so. Why go through all this grief you've put yourself through?

The only message for God that we can be sure came from God are the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The other messages contain truths but they are not the untainted Word of God, since men wrote them.

I believe in God, because Baha'u'llah said so, but I believed that AFTER I did an independent investigation of truth and thereby determined that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, a Manifestation of God. How many times do I have to say that?

One does not believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about God UNTIL they have looked at the evidence and they thereby determined that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. This is the logical sequence of events.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are the Baha'i. You say that Baha'u'llah's claims are true. You keep putting out that quote that says that his life, his mission and his writings are the proof. Okay, what about his life, his mission and in his writings prove anything?

Sure, at some point the other person has to do some reading and research, but the Baha'i teachers job is to plant a seed and water it a little bit. You've put yourself into the position, whether you like it or not, of being the Baha'i teacher. What is your best strategy to get people to care enough about the truth of the Baha'i Faith to actually read some of what the Baha'i Faith believes?

I have planted so many seeds and watered them so much that there should be a forest by now. I have done far more than I am responsible to do and as a result my own life is in a shambles. Where are the other Baha'is, what are they doing to teach the Faith?.

I have told everyone who asks what they have to do if they want to know if the Baha'i Faith is true. I cannot make people care enough to do the reading and research, the caring has to come from them. If they don't care they will never know if the Baha'i Faith is true or not. That will never be on my head because I am not responsible for what other people do.

How do you think that Baha'is came to be Baha'is? They cared enough to check it out.

But, if you don't want to be a Baha'i teacher, and to be responsible for planting those seeds of faith in others, and to help guide them on the path of learning and understanding the truth of the Baha'i Faith, you're doing a good job.

I will take that comment for what it is, as an insult. Show me even one other Baha'i who has done as much as I have for the Faith on this forum. I should not even respond to any more posts after that comment, but you know I will because I have a sense of responsibility, not because I want to or am obligated to.

I have planted the seeds and even watered them but I am in no way responsible for making them grow. This is what you apparently do not understand, but it is a Baha'i teaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

Big, big problem with most all religious groups... Working for it. Now that you've become a Baha'i, what "work" is expected from you? The obligatory prayers, the fast, maybe participate in your community? Give money? Teach the Cause? Deepen yourself and others? Hold a fireside once in a while? Attend the 19 day Feasts? Or, none of the above?

I do not have time for any of that because I am too busy teaching. Hopefully God will forgive me for my negligence.

 

[CG Didymus]

All you can do is look at the evidence and prove to yourself it is true or false. Nobody can prove it to you.

Well, let's talk about this. We read about his good character and his mission... We read what he said, and become convinced that he must be from God... Do that make it "proof"? Have we really "proven" it to ourselves? Or, is it more like we "believe" it is true. Or, we have "faith" in what he said is true? I do believe that most all religious people act as if God and the teachings of their religion is true. But, since you and I agree, that most all of them aren't true, then for all those except Baha'is, they can't prove what they believe. The evidence they think they have is wrong. And, all they really have is a belief.

So even if the Baha'i Faith is absolutely true, do Baha'is have anything more than what other religious people claim to have? Just like my brother. He had an experience that he believes was God's hand saving him from falling off a mountain. But he also, through learning and trusting what 7th Day Adventist taught him, he puts his trust and faith in a certain interpretation of the Bible, of Jesus, and of God. He finds "evidence" that the Bible is trustworthy and true and finds evidence that the 7th Day Adventist interpretation is true. But we look at it and don't believe it. And we wonder why he can't see the flaws in what the believes.

Whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not, doesn't matter. It's claims can't be proven. They have to be believed. That takes a step of faith. Or, God can prove himself to the person by some miraculous thing. You remember Michael Landon's show about him being an angel? Every episode things happened in a person's life that "proved" to them that God was real. But again, miraculous things happen to get people believing most any religious belief. So can believers really do? All they can say is why they believe and do their best to live it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, let's talk about this. We read about his good character and his mission... We read what he said, and become convinced that he must be from God... Do that make it "proof"? Have we really "proven" it to ourselves? Or, is it more like we "believe" it is true.

It's both. We believe because we have proven to ourselves that it is true.

So even if the Baha'i Faith is absolutely true, do Baha'is have anything more than what other religious people claim to have?

We have a new Revelation from God with new teachings and Laws. That is a lot more than the other religions have.

Whether the Baha'i Faith is true or not, doesn't matter. It's claims can't be proven. They have to be believed. That takes a step of faith.

That's true, we have to have some faith, but God wants us to have faith, so that is a good thing we have it.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

I got that verse from a Christian friend who I posted to for about seven years on other forums, and he came to this forum when I told him about it so he is here among us.

We must first believe that it is possible for God to exist, and that requires faith since no man has ever seen God. God wants us to have faith and that explains why God does not provide absolute proof. I believe that God will reward those who earnestly seek Him with the evidence we need to believe, but God will not force us to accept the evidence. That is a choice.

Or, God can prove himself to the person by some miraculous thing.

God can do that and God has done that for everyone who is a Baha'i and that is why we have recognized Baha'u'llah.

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Trailblazer]

I, personally, like the idea of a soul or spirit, which ever it is, coming back and experiencing life in a different body in a different situation.

Why on earth would you want to come back to this earth and inhabit a different body?
Maybe your life has been a lot better than mine. I would never want to come back here, but maybe that is because I have something to compare this life to.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[Trailblazer]

If you state a belief without backing it up with some reasoning or evidence, and then use it in what you claim is a logical argument, it's a baseless claim.

I state my belief and I back it up with logical thinking and evidence.

Logical thinking is not the same as a logical argument.

What is logical thinking simple words?

Logical thinking is the process of observing, analyzing, and drawing conclusions based on those inferences. To put it in the simplest of terms, logical thinking uses facts and evidence to reach a conclusion or solution; it is the use of both logic and reasoning in your thought processes.Mar 4, 2021

What Are Logical Thinking Skills? - Zippia

I am not making a logical argument since religious beliefs cannot be proven in logical arguments. Nobody can prove the premise God exists and sends Messengers is true so nobody can conclude that God exists and sends Messengers is true, not by making a logical argument, but they can prove it to themselves with logical thinking.

Where is the reasoning?

That religions do not contradict each other, they are simply different from one another, is not a matter of reasoning, it is a matter of fact, if one looks at what is in the actual scriptures.

Yes they do. The bible even contradicts itself.

I said that the scriptures of religions do not contradict each other although the scriptures of religions are different. I did not say that there are no contradictions within the scriptures of religions, there are plenty of contradictions in the bible.

Please stop misrepresenting me. I have never once said that it should be easy because I want it to be. Neither have I ever disputed that, if some god exists that has a message, it obviously doesn't want its message to be easy to find. I've just pointed out that that makes said god evil.

Why should it be easy to find and why is God evil if it is not easy to find? You have thus far not given me a logical reason why the message should be easy to find, and that is why I assumed it was based upon your wants, not on logic.

I've explained multiple times. You don't hide important messages that are about people's well-being.

You did not answer my question. Why isn't the important message something we should work for? Why should God hand the message to everyone on a silver platter? Give me one good reason.

I have explained multiple times that the message is not hidden. It is plastered al over the internet for anyone who wants to look at it, but they have to make the effort to look for it and once found that have to assess it in order to determine if it is actually a message from God.

Of course you can't rewind time, it was a thought experiment that shows that 'free will' is an illusion, except in the compatibilist sense, which could not be free from a creator god.

You are free to think you can make no choices if you want to believe that. What people think about free will is important because if you think you have no free will then you will think you have no choices, which would mean you are a pre-programmed robot.

 

[Tiberius]

Just because other medical treatments also carry risks does not mean I want the risks of Covid vaccines and I am certainly not the only one who feels this way.

There is no valid evidence that the Covid vaccine carries an unreasonable health risk.

That is not science.

yes it is.

It doesn't suddenly become non-science just because you want a reason to ignore it.

No I looked at the VAERS data.

Care to share the link where you got this data?

How do you know any more than me, you are no scientist. You just take their word for it.

Yes. Just like how I take the word of a mechanic when he says the car needs to have the oil filter replace, or how I take the word of a plumber when he says I need to have a washer replaced, or how I take the word of an electrician when he says I need to have some wiring replaced.

I do not claim to understand the vaccines and I don't put things into my body that I do not understand just because someone tells me it is "safe and effective" like a mantra.

If you admit that you don't understand them, then I don't see how you can believe you are in any position to disagree with the actual scientists who DO understand them when they say they are safe.

That is meaningless vaguery, understand the science. You understand everything and I don't understand anything. What is that called? I know but you probably don't.

You have made it very clear what you understand of science, and it is very little.

Of course I decided to believe it but that does not mean it was not evidence. take a course in logic.

It is not logical at all to conclude something is true just because you have decided to believe it is true. And it doesn't become any more logical if you take some circumstantial evidence and choose to interpret it concrete.

I claimed nothing.

The instant you present what you believe as a true and factual statement you are making a claim.

You did not do anything at all and you know it. You never even researches the Baha'i Faith so how could you put it to any test?

I remember when you got upset with me for trying to tell you what your reasons where. Seems you don't have a problem with it now, since you are apparently comfortable doing it to me.

Conflating science and religion again and committing the fallacy of false equivalence.

They are indeed equivalent because they are both presenting themselves as explanations for why reality is the way it is.

No, the only reason anyone says that is because it is logic 101.
Conflating science and religion as if one can use the same method to prove them true is completely illogical.
But on on ahead, I don't care what you believe or disbelieve.

That's like me saying that dowsing with a pendulum is the only way I can show that fairies exist, but my pendulum dowsing proves beyond any doubt that fairies exist. Science and religion just can't explain it.

It's nonsense. Pendulum dowsing is worthless as a way to learn the truth about reality, and so is religion.

 

[Tiberius]

Saying "I believe" is not a claim.

Yes it is. You are saying how the world works according to TrailBlazer.

Do you enjoy making a fool out of yourself?

You will never know if the Baha'i Faith is wrong because you never investigated it for yourself.
People who want to know if something is true investigate it for themselves, they don't expect other people to prove it to them.

Then you should investigate why that video proves that the Baha'i faith is wrong. Sure, I could just tell you, but you shouldn't expect other people to prove it to you.

I have no argument since I am not trying to prove anything.

The very fact you are here disagreeing with me proves otherwise.

You are not my boss at work. This is just a forum. I am not obligated to answer any questions you ask me.

No you are not.

But if you don't want to answer any questions, then an internet debate and discussion forum probably isn't the best place for you to come.

And if you just avoid answering the hard questions, then your weakness is on show for all to see.

Please don't waste any more of your time or my time. For you it is all "I am right and you are wrong" -- about everything.
It is not a conversation when one person has to be right about everything.

And once again you think it's appropriate for you to start telling me my own position, despite the fact you've gone off at me in the past for doing it to you. What a fantastic double standard you have. I believe the term for it is HYPOCRITE.

In any case, I am not trying to prove that I am right and you are wrong. I am showing that my position is supportable and yours is not. At least, you position is not supportable by anything more that logical fallacies.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it is. You are saying how the world works according to TrailBlazer.

You are saying how the world works according to Tiberius.

Then you should investigate why that video proves that the Baha'i faith is wrong.

There is no such video.

But if you don't want to answer any questions, then an internet debate and discussion forum probably isn't the best place for you to come.

I never avoid any questions, that is an atheist schtick.
And if you just avoid answering the hard questions, then your weakness is on show for all to see.

I never avoid any questions, that is an atheist schtick.

 

[Tiberius]

You are saying how the world works according to Tiberius.

No. I am saying how the world works according to Tiberius and anyone else who wants to actually put it to the test in a meaningful way.

There is no such video.

Yes there is. I posted it. You need to watch it with an open mind. I watched it and verified to myself that it proves Baha'i wrong. You will have to verify it for yourself.

I never avoid any questions, that is an atheist schtick.

Then I will ask you again: If you don't know if the Baha'i faith's position on the ethics of genetic modification of Humans is in the video you posted, how do you know it addresses what I asked?

Your only answer to this was to post an 83 minute video that you just GUESSED contained the answer somewhere.

Posting irrelevant waffle instead of answering the question is indeed avoiding the question.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I will ask you again: If you don't know if the Baha'i faith's position on the ethics of genetic modification of Humans is in the video you posted, how do you know it addresses what I asked?

Posting irrelevant waffle instead of answering the question is indeed avoiding the question.

I don't know if it answers your question and I don't care because I am not responsible for answering YOUR questions about my religion.

 

[ratiocinator]

I state my belief and I back it up with logical thinking and evidence.

I am not making a logical argument since religious beliefs cannot be proven in logical arguments.

Contradictory.

You have thus far not given me a logical reason why the message should be easy to find, and that is why I assumed it was based upon your wants, not on logic.

Yes I have, many, many times.
#3769
#3759
#3722
...

You are free to think you can make no choices if you want to believe that.

I didn't say that. It's not about not making choices, it's about the reasons behind the choices we make.

What people think about free will is important because if you think you have no free will then you will think you have no choices, which would mean you are a pre-programmed robot.

We have free will for all practical purposes (compatibilism) but that wouldn't work if there is an omniscient, omnipotent creator.

 

[Trailblazer]

Contradictory.

Not at all, because a person can think and act logically while not presenting a 'formal' logical argument in an effort to prove something.

Yes I have, many, many times.
#3769
#3759
#3722

No, you have never given me a logical reason why the message should be easy to find. In fact, you have not given me a reason at all, and as such that is just a personal opinion with no reasoning behind it.

There is no reason to think that the message should be easy to find and I have explained why it is not easy more than once.

But let's look at the reasons you gave me that you thought were logical reasons.

You said:
As for why it should be easy to see the message from god, it's the same reason that it shouldn't be difficult for people to find out that there is a treatment for some nasty illness or a vaccine. Your god (according to your description) is doing the equivalent of somebody who developed the only COVID vaccine, not announcing it to the world but setting everybody puzzles that they have to solve and not telling them what they'd get if they solved them. It's comically absurd. If you happen to like rummaging around in old superstitions in case there might be some truth there, then you might find your god's message, but if you just make a rational judgement that there is no obvious message, then you won't.

There is no logical reason why the message from God should be as easy to find as a vaccine and to compare it to a vaccine is the fallacy of false equivalence because medicine is not equivalent to a message from God. There are reasons why a vaccine needs to be easy for everyone to fid but there are no reasons why a message from a Messenger should be easy to find. The main reason is because God does not want to make it easy and since God is the sender of the message God makes that judgment call, humans do not make it. It is highly illogical for any human to think they can dictate how an omnipotent/omniscient God ‘should’ deliver His message.

You said:
Logically, an omniscient, omnipotent, just and fair creator god, who has an important message for its creation, would make that message clear to everybody and not allow it to be confused with superstition, corrupted or misinterpreted. It would not play games of hide-and-seek and expect people to go looking. That is not the world we live in, therefore I conclude that there is no such god.

There is no logical reason an why omniscient, omnipotent, just and fair creator god, who has an important message for its creation would make that message clear to everybody and not allow it to be confused with superstition, corrupted or misinterpreted. The logical reason why such a God would not do that is because that God gave man a rational mind and free will to choose. As such man is fully responsible for what happened to the messages from God that were delivered.

There is no hide-and-seek since the message for this age is available for all to read in the Baha’i Reference Library online, but God is not going to hand carry that message to everyone in the world and make sure they understand it and believe it as that is patently absurd.

You said:
It's not my personal opinion, it's blindingly obvious. If god has a message that it is important for humans to recognise, then handing it out to human 'messengers', letting it get corrupted by people, so many people didn't have access to it, no matter how much they may have wanted it, letting people kill each other over different versions, and providing no objective evidence that there is any message at all to look for, hence excluding anybody rational, is obviously unjust.

It is your personal opinion and that is ALL it is. God had a message that it is important for humans to recognize and God handed it out to Messengers who were not only human, they were also divine. God allowed the messages to get corrupted by man because God allows free will. There is no logical reason why God should be responsible for anything man did after the message was delivered since God gave man a rational mind and free will. The way God delivers His messages is totally just because God ensured that the Messenger completed His mission, including writing scriptures , and God created man with the capacity to recognize the truth in those scriptures.

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

Man has always had access to messages from God brought by the Messengers since messages have been brought to every nation.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

If man rejects the message that is on them, not on God, because man has a free will. God’s job is done as soon as He sends the Messenger and the Messenger’s job is done as soon as He completes His mission on earth. After that, the ball is completely in the human court.

I didn't say that. It's not about not making choices, it's about the reasons behind the choices we make.

Fair enough, of course there are reasons for the choices we make but since about 90% of our thinking is subconscious I don't think we can always know those reasons although sometimes we might know.

We have free will for all practical purposes (compatibilism) but that wouldn't work if there is an omniscient, omnipotent creator.

Why wouldn't it work, if the omniscient, omnipotent creator wanted us to have free will and use it?

 

[Tiberius]

I don't know if it answers your question and I don't care because I am not responsible for answering YOUR questions about my religion.

Then why are you here?

You've been answering plenty of questions about your religion to me and just about everyone else? Why are you now saying it's not your place to do so?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why are you here?

You've been answering plenty of questions about your religion to me and just about everyone else? Why are you now saying it's not your place to do so?

I do my best to answer questions but not responsible to answer every single question that people have.

If I know the answers to the questions I normally answer them right away but if I don't know the answers I don't have time to research every question that people have, especially if they have already told me they believe my religion is false, as you did. If you have decided that my religion is false why would you care what my religion says about x?

 

[Tiberius]

If you have decided that my religion is false why would you care what my religion says about x?

Because I'm trying to illustrate the inconsistent nature of your position.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because I'm trying to illustrate the inconsistent nature of your position.

I suspected as much. Sorry, I am not into the games atheists play trying to prove me wrong. That is not a discussion. It is nothing but ego when people have to be right all the time.

 

[Tiberius]

I suspected as much. Sorry, I am not into the games atheists play trying to prove me wrong. That is not a discussion. It is nothing but ego when people have to be right all the time.

You misunderstand. Me pointing out where your arguments fail is not me trying to prove you wrong. It is me showing how you prove yourself wrong.