Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Secret Chief]

I don't think the four noble truths and the eightfold path are based on those metaphysics

You are wrong. The cause of suffering (second Noble truth) is the attachment to phenomena in the mistaken belief that they have an abiding independent existence (anicca and anatta).

On one occasion, Malunkyaputta asked the Buddha a number of questions: whether or not the world is eternal; whether the world is finite or infinite; whether or not the soul and the body are identical; and about the existence of the saint after death. He received no direct reply. Instead the Buddha related a parable: "It is as if a man is hit by a poison arrow. His friends hasten to the doctor. The latter is about to draw the arrow out of the wound. The wounded man however cries: `Stop, I will not have the arrow drawn out until I know who shot it. Whether a warrior or a Brahmin, or belonging to the agricultural or menial castes . . . his name and to which family he belonged . . . of what species and description the arrow is.'" In seeking to attain absolute knowledge of all of the circumstances of the shooting, the man neglected the practical matter of removing the arrow and would certainly die. Similarly, the Buddha asserts that were he to try to elucidate the answer to the questions that Malunkyaputta had put to him, "that person would die before the Tathagata had ever elucidated this to him"

Or, in summary, (from the viewpoint of samsara) nirvana is non-dual.

 

[samtonga43]

No, I have not considered that because I believe in Divine unity. That means that since God is infallible, Baha'ullah is also infallible, and that means that Baha'u'llah cannot be mistaken regarding how God communicates to humans.

The B.man is infallible.
And there we have it, folks.
Tb has spoken.
Illogicality has the last word.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then you are being irrational.
The words “as far as I know” do indeed indicate that there is a possibility that these 'facts' you have about your faith are not true.

There is a possibility that ANY facts that have been reported or were written about are not true. How could we ever know?

For example, look at the different accounts as per the events surrounding the execution of the Bab. How can we know for certain which accounts are actually true: Execution of the Báb

Hmmm... let's have a look at this 'logical' process.

1. Tb believes that...the messengers have been successful in getting their messages across.
2. God is all knowing
Therefore
3. God knows that the messengers have been successful in getting their messages across.

Really?

No, I do not BELIEVE that, I know that because statistics show that.
I already pointed out how we know that the Messengers of God have been successful in this post:

We know it has worked fine because 84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Other religions that comprise most of the rest of believers also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.
#866 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 1:25 PM

Of course God knows EVERYTHING that I know and much more because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are fooling no one, Tb. Didn't you say this is your 'job'?

Truthseeker9 said: Give it up.

I said: I gave it up a long, long time ago, back in the Dotsman Days. I am just here for a little entertainment.

Do you even know what I gave up? Do you know what the Dotsman Days were? Those were about six years of posting daily to an atheist called Dotsman, who insisted that if God were real God would communicate directly to everyone in the world.

Trailblazer said: It is a completely moot point whether God is capable of communicating directly to everyone or not because no ordinary human could understand God if God communicated directly to them. God created humans a certain way so humans are incapable of understanding communication from God directly.

Please do not bother to say that God could MAKE humans understand Him because God is omnipotent, since that is not logical. Human brains were created with a certain capacity so God would have to recreate humans with a different capacity (the capacity the Messengers have) in order for humans to understand direct communication from God.

What I gave up is trying to make atheists understand why God does not communicate directly to ordinary humans.

My ONLY job is to carry the message of Baha'u'llah, it is not my job to convince anyone that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course it hasn't worked, it's an obvious abject failure, otherwise everybody would accept the latest messenger and be Baha'is.

I showed you the statistics as to how many people believe in God because of one of the Messengers of God. It is completely illogical to expect those people of the older religions to recognize and believe in the latest Messenger of God. Not very many people have ever believed in a new Messenger for many years after He appeared on earth. For example:

“Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

It's also an obvious failure because of all the suffering caused by religions' often violent disagreements. You can't claim the 83% when you think most of them have got it wrong.

Religious believers do not have everything wrong just because they did not recognize Baha'u'llah.
The suffering caused by religions' often violent disagreements has been a failure on the part of religious believers, not a failure on the part of God or His Messengers.

This is just an assertion. Where is the actual reasoning? If god has a message for everybody, and the means to communicate directly to everybody (without the confusion and untold suffering caused by going through 'messengers' that contradict each other and don't even communicate with everyone anyway) then what on earth would be the point of not communicating with everybody directly?

So God is supposed to communicate everything He communicated to Baha'u'llah, all of the 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote over the course of 40 years, and all of 7.7 billion people in the world are going to be able to understand what God communicated and write it down? Do you even realize how unrealistic that is? It is also unnecessary because that is in the Baha’i Reference Library for all to read.

And you've again directly said something that makes your god unfair. Without any clear evidence that any of the religion have a message from a real god, there is no rational reason to go looking through them just in case.

What is UNFAIR about God expecting you to do the research necessary in order to uncover the facts about the Messenger and the religion He established? If you want a college degree do you tell the professors that it is "unreasonable" to expect you to do research? I have two Masters degrees and I had to do a lot of research. You won't have any clear evidence that the religion has a message from a real God unless you do the research.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

Another assertion. There is no rational reason why a skeptic would believe you rather than any other religious claim. No matter how many times you repeat it, if the message is contained in one of the religious scriptures in the world, it is, effectively, hidden.

No, it is not an assertion, it is my belief. A rational person would look at the LATEST Messenger of God and His messages rather than a Bronze Age religion and those messages.

The message is not hidden, it is all over the internet. All you have to do is look for it.

 

[Trailblazer]

The B.man is infallible.
And there we have it, folks.
Tb has spoken.
Illogicality has the last word.

No, God has spoken.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 34

BTW, I'd fix that link if I were you, because on many of your posts it keeps going back to an old post to SZ on that other thread.

 

[samtonga43]

There is a possibility that ANY facts that have been reported or were written about are not true. How could we ever know?

Exactly. We cannot ever know. And you, Tb, are no exception to the ‘not knowing’.[/QUOTE]

No, I do not BELIEVE that, I know that because statistics show that.

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.”
Mark Twain

I already pointed out how we know that the Messengers of God have been successful in this post
We know it has worked fine because 84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. Other religions that comprise most of the rest of believers also have a Messenger (or messengers) they believe in. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few stragglers, believers who believe in God but not a Messenger; this comprises about 9% of the world population, but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers, very few people would believe in God.

You have an over-abundance of “WE know” statements here.
Many of us are not part of the ‘WE’.

Of course God knows EVERYTHING that I know and much more because God is all-knowing.

We agree. I also believe that God knows much more than you do.

We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population.

Most Christians believe that Christ IS the Message.

 

[samtonga43]

No, God has spoken. “Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, ... "

False assumption.

BTW, I'd fix that link if I were you, because on many of your posts it keeps going back to an old post to SZ on that other thread.

Sorry, can you explain? What link?

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly. We cannot ever know. And you, Tb, are no exception to the ‘not knowing’.

Know is just a word that has more than one meaning. I can know, just not the way you think I know.
I know in the sense of 2a.

Definition of know

1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself (3): to recognize the nature of : discern

b(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of

2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of

b: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write

Definition of KNOW

You have an over-abundance of “WE know” statements here.
Many of us are not part of the ‘WE’.

Replace "We know" with "One can know".

We agree. I also believe that God knows much more than you do.

Who is "we"?

Most Christians believe that Christ IS the Message.

What message is that?

 

[Trailblazer]

False assumption.

It is not an assumption, it is a belief, and it is either true or false. I pick true, you pick false.

Sorry, can you explain? What link?

If you go to this post:
#907 samtonga43, Today at 12:52 PM

Trailblazer said: ↑ Of course God knows EVERYTHING that I know and much more because God is all-knowing.

Ans if you click on the ‘up arrow’ after Trailblazer said, instead of taking you to what I said on this thread, it takes you to this post:

#1740 Trailblazer, May 18, 2021

 

[Trailblazer]

But what you believe IS your problem, and you need to have some way of determining if your beliefs are true.

I had a way of determining they are true, I looked at all the evidence.

And simply saying, "I believe them to be true, so that settles it," just isn't a good enough way of determining the truth, is it?

I "determined" that truth a long time ago, and I never said "I believe them to be true, so that settles it," until I determined they were true.
If I don't know that after 50+ years of being a Baha'i, I'll never know. How long do you think it takes, 100 years?

 

[Trailblazer]

So we are agreed. The capacity to do a thing is not, by itself, enough for that thing to be done.

Agreed.

Then we are agreed, and your claim that, "everyone has been given what they need, which is the capacity to believe in God," is incorrect?

No, I do not agree. I believe everyone has the capacity but they ALSO need the motivation.

And thus your claim that everyone has been given what they need is wrong.

Everyone has been given the capacity but nobody can give anyone else the motivation, the motivation has to come from within you.

But the capacity, which you said was what people need, is not enough.

I never said that the capacity is enough, or that is all people need. People also need the motivation.

And don't try to get out of it by saying that you never said it was ALL people need. By that logic, I can say, "I've given you what you need to build a house," and what I've given you is a single brick.

That analogy won't fly God created you with the capacity but God does give people the motivation to USE their capacity.

Not everyone has the same capacity to believe in God, some people have more capacity than others. Everyone has been given a pre-ordained measure, but if we do not exercise our free will to do something with what we have been given nothing will ever happen.

“And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

I assure you that this person is a real person, and one whose name you will recognise. That is why I have not provided their name. I would not want you to be influenced by any preconceived ideas about them that you may have. I would like for you to judge them solely on whether they have met your criteria.

But you already told me that this person has met my criteria, and then you asked me if they met my criteria. That makes no sense.

Tiberius said: ↑
Now, I'm still waiting for you to address my other question.

This person I have mentioned, does he count as a messenger of God? He's met your first five criteria, and as for your "Can't contradict any other religion," that's a standard that not even your faith can meet, so I think my individual meets it just as much as Mr B does, unless you want to count him out as well.

So, does my individual meet the criteria for being a messenger from God, or are there some other criteria he needs to meet first?

 

[Truthseeker]

Sounds to me like this is just saying, "You have to find an interpretation that lets you fit everything together and then decide that it's true based solely on your desire to make these different religions play nice together.

I'm sure I could find a way to get the Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who and Stargate universes to work together as well, but that doesn't mean that Rory and Amy are going to take the Stargate to the Enterprise to go and fight the Sith Lords.

Still not serious.

 

[Truthseeker]

If you have a source that shows that my claim that most Christians think the resurrection was literal is wrong, please provide it.

I wasn't referring to that. It's your flippant attitude. Wh cares if most Christians believe that? I don't. As if that's a criterion for truth.

 

[Tiberius]

I had a way of determining they are true, I looked at all the evidence.

Except you've already admitted that you only consider it evidence if it supports what you want to believe.

 

[Truthseeker]

I gave it up a long, long time ago, back in the Dotsman Days. I am just here for a little entertainment.

Myself, I wouldn't find this entertaining. It's just frustrating, I would think. I remember Dotsman well. It was endless.

 

[Tiberius]

Agreed.

Glad to hear it.

No, I do not agree. I believe everyone has the capacity but they ALSO need the motivation.

How can you say that you DON'T agree that it is incorrect, and then immediately say why it is incorrect?

Everyone has been given the capacity but nobody can give anyone else the motivation, the motivation has to come from within you.

So let me get this straight, because it will be important in a moment. The motivation can not be given by anyone, it must come from within the individual in question. Just making sure this is very clear.

I never said that the capacity is enough, or that is all people need. People also need the motivation.

Nah, you definitely said it.

"...everyone has been given what they need, which is the capacity to believe in God..."

That analogy won't fly God created you with the capacity but God does give people the motivation to USE their capacity.

And here's why that motivation bit is important.

You said earlier that motivation can ONLY come from within the person. It can not come from outside them. ANd yet now you are completely changing your tune and saying that God provides the motivation!

It's almost like you are making it up as you go.

When your story changes so often, are you really surprised that I find your claims to be weak and flawed?

But you already told me that this person has met my criteria, and then you asked me if they met my criteria. That makes no sense.

Tiberius said: ↑
Now, I'm still waiting for you to address my other question.

This person I have mentioned, does he count as a messenger of God? He's met your first five criteria, and as for your "Can't contradict any other religion," that's a standard that not even your faith can meet, so I think my individual meets it just as much as Mr B does, unless you want to count him out as well.

So, does my individual meet the criteria for being a messenger from God, or are there some other criteria he needs to meet first?

And let's not forget that you presented those five criteria and then said that there were other criteria that needed to be met once the person in question has met those first five criteria. Now, I have demonstrated that this person has met the first five criteria, and I am asking you to say what these additional criteria are that need to be met.

Or are those first five criteria all that there is?

 

[Truthseeker]

Except you've already admitted that you only consider it evidence if it supports what you want to believe.

What about what you want to believe?

 

[Tiberius]

Still not serious.

Are you going to claim everyone who disagrees with your point of view is not serious?

 

[Truthseeker]

You are wrong. The cause of suffering (second Noble truth) is the attachment to phenomena in the mistaken belief that they have an abiding independent existence (anicca and anatta).

I believe the same thing without anicca and annatta.