Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Secret Chief]

All my degrees are so old they’re written on papyrus. Ironically, I don’t work in any field I have a degree in and I have 3 degrees and am working on another lol. Hopefully, this last ones a winner otherwise I’m moving to a country with free college.

Papyrus! Mine's written on a cave wall.

 

[infrabenji]

Okay.
As short as possible.

I will explain the world. - The problem is that it is in part in a sense self-referring, because I do it. So we do it with science. Problem solved, right?
Well, no! https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

So here is one way to do it without any reasoning/justification but just where it apparently ends:

There are almost always 3 aspects/factors/categories/concepts at play:
Objective, inter-subjective, subjective.
Someone - process - something (e.g. I have an experience)
It must be independent of humans - we must agree - it must make sense to me.
Physical, social, mind.
Same, similar, different.
Time, place, property.
Past, present, future.
And so on.

There is more, but if you learn to spot those in a debate, you will notice that we all do them. Just with some variation.
So back to my post with Gould about science, cognitive relativism and the problem of rational objective justification, because that is what we are playing. I can't do it for all aspects of the world, if I have to be intellectual honest, so I do what seems to be real to me. I state what is at play and if it is objective, inter-subjective and/or subjective.

Regards
Mikkel

Oh man, even your short posts leave me with a lot of reading lol. Fortunately, my fiancé is reading to me about cognitive relativism while I read to her about inter-subjectivity. Will consider and come back with questions. Many thanks. Talk soon.

 

[ratiocinator]

I would suggest developing inspiration and intuition to the point where they become a working part of the mind.

What does that even mean? Intuition is a terrible way to approach understanding things outside our immediate environment (much of what science has learned in incredibly counter-intuitive) and unreliable even within it in several important ways.

Of course they are imperfect tools; just as reason and intellect are imperfect tools.

There's a world of difference between being imperfect and having no basis at all.

For these reasons and others, it’s as well to have some spiritual guidance from trusted others.

Without an objective standard, how would you even begin to know who to trust?

 

[infrabenji]

Papyrus! Mine's written on a cave wall.

Got your degree in atlatl leverage ergonomics with an emphasis on velocity I see. Nice. Totally jealous.

 

[Trailblazer]

If god is omnipotent and omniscient then yes I imagine he could show up and introduce himself or at the very least provide some evidence that wasn’t only included in books written by people. Which I have to say is the worst possible way for a god to communicate with his people. Probably why there’s one bible and 30,000 different kinds of Christians.

The Bible is not the only Holy Book in existence. Not all religions have thousands of sects. My religion has no sects. Therefore you cannot use the Bible to say that scriptures are the worst possible way for God to communicate with His people.

Sure, God could show up on Earth and make sure everyone believes He exists. This is what would happen if God showed up. So great is the Light of God that if God showed up on earth in all His glory everything on Earth would be reduced to utter nothingness. That is one reason why God sends Messengers on His behalf to act as mediators between God and man. The other reason God does not 'show up' is because that would be too easy since in that case everyone would know that He exists and nobody would have to exert any effort to search for God.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

 

[RestlessSoul]

What does that even mean? Intuition is a terrible way to approach understanding things outside our immediate environment (much of what science has learned in incredibly counter-intuitive) and unreliable even within it in several important ways.


There's a world of difference between being imperfect and having no basis at all.


Without an objective standard, how would you even begin to know who to trust?

Yes, much of what science has learned in the last 100 years is counter-intuitive. Precisely because scientists like Werner Heisenberg and Wolfgang Pauli, Erwin Schrodinger etc., were prepared to change their ways of thinking about a problem, to pursue ideas which were on the face of things absurd, and to submit papers which many of their peers found inscrutable, and dismissed as nonsense.

This is Heisenberg describing his response to a revelation regarding a behaviour of electrons;

"At first, I was deeply alarmed. I had the feeling that I had gone beyond the surface of things and was beginning to see a strangely beautiful interior, and felt dizzy at the thought that now I had to investigate this wealth of mathematical structures that Nature had do generously spread out before me."

And this is a man called Bill Wilson describing his response to a revelation of an entirely spiritual nature;

"These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully accepted them, the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never known. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound."

These two men are describing remarkably similar experiences; revelation arrived at through willingness to abandon old ideas, look beyond the surface of things, remain open minded, and trust enough in their intuitive convictions when surrounded by doubters.

 

[ratiocinator]

Sure, God could show up on Earth and make sure everyone believes He exists. This is what would happen if God showed up. So great is the Light of God that if God showed up on earth in all His glory everything on Earth would be reduced to utter nothingness.

This assertion is inconsistent with an omnipotent god.

The other reason God does not 'show up' is because that would be too easy since in that case everyone would know that He exists and nobody would have to exert any effort to search for God.

Why does your god want people to make an effort to search for it, when it has provided no evidence for its existence? Does god only like the irrational?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What does that even mean? Intuition is a terrible way to approach understanding things outside our immediate environment (much of what science has learned in incredibly counter-intuitive) and unreliable even within it in several important ways.


There's a world of difference between being imperfect and having no basis at all.

All well and good.

Without an objective standard, how would you even begin to know who to trust?

There is not an objective standard for all of the world:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

 

[RestlessSoul]

What objective standard would you use when deciding whether to play a recording of Rachmaninov or Miles Davis?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What objective standard would you use when deciding whether to play a recording of Rachmaninov or Miles Davis?

Or debate what human rights are and how to balance them?

 

[infrabenji]

The Bible is not the only Holy Book in existence. Not all religions have thousands of sects. My religion has no sects. Therefore you cannot use the Bible to say that scriptures are the worst possible way for God to communicate with His people.

Sure, God could show up on Earth and make sure everyone believes He exists. This is what would happen if God showed up. So great is the Light of God that if God showed up on earth in all His glory everything on Earth would be reduced to utter nothingness. That is one reason why God sends Messengers on His behalf to act as mediators between God and man. The other reason God does not 'show up' is because that would be too easy since in that case everyone would know that He exists and nobody would have to exert any effort to search for God.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

I think you’re a really nice guy and sometimes even eloquent but I’m not really fond of proselytizing. I could quote scriptures at you from the Book of Mormon all day long too but it doesn’t get us anywhere nearer to the truth of either position. Even I know I can’t use the Baha’i scriptures, written by man nonetheless, to prove that if God showed up he would reduce everything to nothingness because the Baha’i scriptures say so. That’s such a problematic argument I don’t even know where to begin. Do you think subjectivity meets the criteria philosophically or actually to determine the truth about reality? Do opinions and feelings really dictate what’s true in your life instead of facts? Let me know when you have some evidence that isn’t just cut and paste scriptures from your bibles. Hope you have an awesome day.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that's utterly terrible as evidence. There are lots of 'holy books' and even more interpretations of them. Why should anybody take any of them seriously?

You are correct that there are lots of 'holy books' and even more interpretations of them but holy books are the only real evidence of God because they originated from God through His Messengers. Maybe you could start by deciding which holy books to look at. It makes sense to me that you would look at the most recent ones rather than ones that were written thousands of years ago, which were written to apply to past ages of history. The Baha'i Faith is the newest world religion and it has many, many books you could read.

If it's omnipotent, it can do anything it wants.

God could show up on Earth, but I just explained what would happen if God did that on this thread:

Sure, God could show up on Earth and make sure everyone believes He exists. This is what would happen if God showed up. So great is the Light of God that if God showed up on earth in all His glory everything on Earth would be reduced to utter nothingness. That is one reason why God sends Messengers on His behalf to act as mediators between God and man. The other reason God does not 'show up' is because that would be too easy since in that case everyone would know that He exists and nobody would have to exert any effort to search for God.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

But if there there is no obvious message from, or evidence for any god(s) why would anybody rational go looking? Why would a god that has effectively hidden itself then be interested in people who "care about believing"?

God is hidden from view, but God's attributes and God's message are not hidden as they are revealed by the Messengers of God. There is an obvious message from God and evidence for God, you just have to go looking for it.
A place to start is in The Works of Bahá'u'lláh.

 

[Trailblazer]

This assertion is inconsistent with an omnipotent god.

No, this assertion is consistent with an omnipotent God because so great is the Light of an omnipotent God that if God showed up on earth in all His glory everything on Earth would be reduced to utter nothingness.

Why does your god want people to make an effort to search for it, when it has provided no evidence for its existence? Does god only like the irrational?

There is plenty of evidence that comes on the form of holy books as I just pointed out in my previous post. the fact that atheists do not 'like' that evidence is an entirely moot point. God is not a short order cook who provides evidence to suit people's tastes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you’re a really nice guy and sometimes even eloquent but I’m not really fond of proselytizing. I could quote scriptures at you from the Book of Mormon all day long too but it doesn’t get us anywhere nearer to the truth of either position. Even I know I can’t use the Baha’i scriptures, written by man nonetheless, to prove that if God showed up he would reduce everything to nothingness because the Baha’i scriptures say so. That’s such a problematic argument I don’t even know where to begin. Do you think subjectivity meets the criteria philosophically or actually to determine the truth about reality? Do opinions and feelings really dictate what’s true in your life instead of facts? Let me know when you have some evidence that isn’t just cut and paste scriptures from your bibles. Hope you have an awesome day.

Firstly, I am a gal and not a guy, and secondly I am not proselytizing just because I posted a short quote, a quote that was necessary to make my point, which was a direct response to want you asked.

Do you really think I expect you to believe what I believe, that if God showed up he would reduce everything to nothingness? But if you knew anything about God you would realize that is logical. Unfortunately, you will never know anything about God because you reject all the scriptures which are the ONLY source of information about God.

You said: Do you think subjectivity meets the criteria philosophically or actually to determine the truth about reality?
No I don't think so, the objective evidence that God exists is in the scriptures, although how people interpret them is subjective. Good luck on your search but you are looking for something that does not exist, because the only way you can ever know anything about God is from holy books.

 

[infrabenji]

Firstly, I am a gal and not a guy, and secondly I am not proselytizing just because I posted a short quote, a quote that was necessary to make my point, which was a direct response to want you asked.

Do you really think I expect you to believe what I believe, that if God showed up he would reduce everything to nothingness? But if you knew anything about God you would realize that is logical. Unfortunately, you will never know anything about God because you reject all the scriptures which are the ONLY source of information about God.

You said: Do you think subjectivity meets the criteria philosophically or actually to determine the truth about reality?
No I don't think so, the objective evidence that God exists is in the scriptures, although how people interpret them is subjective. Good luck on your search but you are looking for something that does not exist, because the only way you can ever know anything about God is from holy books.

I am so sorry I mis-gendered you. That’s so embarrassing. I apologize wholeheartedly. It’s not just that one post with scripture it’s been every post practically. If the only way I can learn about god is to take some guy I don’t even knows word for it. I’m good. By your logic you could be convinced of anything. That’s what is dangerous about religion. That’s the same reasoning that causes the persecution and abuse of so many by so many different religions all absolving themselves of any moral responsibility with words from gods handed down through man in the form of books. But not Baha’i you guys are really peaceful as I understand it and I don’t mean that sarcastically. But unfortunately for Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, to name a few, that is not the case. These people are told exactly what you’re telling me to do and look how good that’s worked out for everyone so far. So yeah believe a book making extraordinary claims with no supporting evidence. No thanks. I’ve seen what that does to people.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am so sorry I mis-gendered you. That’s so embarrassing. I apologize wholeheartedly. It’s not just that one post with scripture it’s been every post practically. If the only way I can learn about god is to take some guy I don’t even knows word for it. I’m good. By your logic you could be convinced of anything. That’s what is dangerous about religion. That’s the same reasoning that causes the persecution and abuse of so many by so many different religions all absolving themselves of any moral responsibility with words from gods handed down through man in the form of books. But not Baha’i you guys are really peaceful as I understand it and I don’t mean that sarcastically. But unfortunately for Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, to name a few, that is not the case. These people are told exactly what you’re telling me to do and look how good that’s worked out for everyone so far. So yeah believe a book making extraordinary claims with no supporting evidence. No thanks. I’ve seen what that does to people.

No offense taken for the misgendering. Many people assume I am a male because I am quite analytical as opposed to emotional.

I never suggested that you take Baha'u'llah's word for anything, nor did He ever enjoin us to do that. Quite the contrary! The following quote is not scripture, it comes from an introductory book about the Baha'i Faith.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

No, by my logic I would never be convinced of anything unless I had done a thorough investigation. I have been a Baha'i for over 50 years so I have had plenty of time to investigate my religion and that is an ongoing process.

Just remember, you are the one who started this thread and asked people to convince you that that God exists, that their religion is true. That is all people have been doing. I told you before that I do not believe in convincing people because I think they need to do the research and decide for themselves, but I will answer questions and point you to where you can do the research.

If you compare the Baha'i Faith with Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any older religion and assume that the Baha'i Faith is more of the same then you are committing the fallacy of hasty generalization. It is not the same, it is different, and the reason it is different is because we are living in a new religious cycle, a whole new age called the age of fulfillment because all the Bible prophecies as well as the prophecies of other religions will be fulfilled during this age. All those older religions were revealed in an entirely different religious cycle and that is why they are very different from the Baha'i Faith..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Its been my experience that Atheist use the imperfection and failings of religions and religious people as an excuse not to seek God within. If one could "prove" their relationship with the God within then the Atheist would still have to find God within themselves.

If someone doesn't really want to find God there isn't anything you can say to them that is right! I someone truly desires to find God then there isn't really anything you can say wrong because the birth of faith has already occurred within them.

What if atheists have a spiritual awakening but it's not god related?

Is there a default spiritual experience and everything is based on that?

 

[Colt]

What if atheists have a spiritual awakening but it's not god related?

Is there a default spiritual experience and everything is based on that?

God is spirit. If you have a spiritual awakening then you are awakening to what we call God.

You can then establish your own personal relationship with God without someone else's concept.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God is spirit. If you have a spiritual awakening then you are awakening to what we call God.

You can then establish your own personal relationship with God without someone else's concept.

I'm speaking of atheists who have spiritual awakening not theists. People who believe no deities exist still have spiritual awakenings.

Unless they are lying or its fake or something?

 

[Colt]

I'm speaking of atheists who have spiritual awakening not theists. People who believe no deities exist still have spiritual awakenings.

Unless they are lying or its fake or something?

Im saying they are finding God but just don't realize it.