Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[infrabenji]

I do not say other people from other religious faiths or spiritual teachings can not experience God/speak to God. My focus is not on making critique of other religions or faiths.

If I follow and practice sufism the way it is taught i have no worries about a Hell.
Only if my own speech,action and thoughts are false or evil i might end in Hell, but that is up to God to say.

What make me believe in the spiritual? Because I have faith in the teaching, and belief in God

Thank you for sharing. I highly doubt you'll end up in hell either. Let me ask you this though. Do you think that faith is a reliable path to truth?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Thank you for sharing. I highly doubt you'll end up in hell either. Let me ask you this though. Do you think that faith is a reliable path to truth?

Faith is the beginning of the path to spiritual wisdom, and truth lay within the spiritual wisdom (truth about God).
What seperate a human being from God is the vail that are within our eyes. Only when the vail is lifted (through spiritual practice) can one understand God fully. Becoming one with God.

 

[infrabenji]

Faith is the beginning of the path to spiritual wisdom, and truth lay within the spiritual wisdom (truth about God).
What seperate a human being from God is the vail that are within our eyes. Only when the vail is lifted (through spiritual practice) can one understand God fully. Becoming one with God.

I like that very poetic I’m going to go to bed now and that was the perfect thing for me to hear. I contemplate that as I fall asleep. Thank you very much.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I like that very poetic I’m going to go to bed now and that was the perfect thing for me to hear. I contemplate that as I fall asleep. Thank you very much.

Very welcome

 

[ratiocinator]

Uo to you if you want to make the effort to find God. But don’t you think it’s rather spurious, to present your lack of willingness and open mindedness, as evidence that God does not exist?

No. And it isn't about being open minded. If there is a god with an important message for us, then logically we'd expect that message to be made clear to everybody. Otherwise this god is either unable or unwilling to make it clear. The former would imply it isn't really a god in the normal sense, and the latter would imply it isn't being just and fair.

There is no prima facie case that any god(s) exist and very good reasons to think that a just, fair, and almighty god is inconsistent with the reality we observe.

You're also (like so many monotheists) talking as if 'God' is one single concept. In fact people believe in many, many different and contradictory versions, so at least most of them have got it wrong. This again underlines that there is good reason to think there is no just and fair god with an important message.

 

[Tiberius]

No it does not bother me that "evidence" can not be physically shown to a non believer, because the evidence arise from within spiritually.

If the evidence can't be shown to anyone else, how can you be sure that it is what you believe it to be?

 

[ratiocinator]

Because you are looking in the wrong way. People you talk to face to face are like living objects you can relate to.
God however is the Supreme Subjectivity, who is aligned with your own subject, your own I-feeling.
So if you want to relate with Him, you have to dive into your own subject, your own consciousness.
There is no other way. In the outer world He is also there, but only indirectly (everywhere, inside or behind everything).

I have no idea what "Supreme Subjectivity" is. What's the case for making the effort and how would we know that whatever we 'discover' isn't self-delusion (like I inflicted on myself as a young teen)?

 

[Spirit of Light]

If the evidence can't be shown to anyone else, how can you be sure that it is what you believe it to be?

From my personal understanding and experience of how the teaching has helped me fully change as a person

 

[Marcion]

I have no idea what "Supreme Subjectivity" is. What's the case for making the effort and how would we know that whatever we 'discover' isn't self-delusion (like I inflicted on myself as a young teen)?

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with imposed religion. I'm glad I was spared that experience in my own youth.
Spirituality, exploring the 'self' however is not the same as religion.
Once you experience the true or rather deeper nature of the Self, you will realise that not that experience is delusional but rather your normal perception of reality is a kind of delusion (not as real as you always assumed). The difference will be crystal clear to you, not some fantasy.

Some people may have had a similar experience while using certain drugs such as LSD.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they should start doing spiritual practices (nor doing drugs!).

Spiritualists are themselves convinced that consciousness comes first and that time, space and matter are secondary products or projections of that Supreme Consciousness or Supreme Subjectivity (the One aware of or watching everything from within, or indeed dreaming everything up).

 

[ratiocinator]

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with imposed religion.

I can't claim it was imposed. I wasn't dragged into it. I was just young and actually wanted to believe it. It all felt very genuine at the time and I would have come across as just as convinced as any theist here had you talked to me then (although it was well before the internet). That's why I'm never going to be convinced of anything being objectively real based on just internal feelings and apparent perception. I know the power of self-delusion.

The difference will be crystal clear to you, not some fantasy.

Exactly the sort of thing I would have said......

 

[RestlessSoul]

No. And it isn't about being open minded. If there is a god with an important message for us, then logically we'd expect that message to be made clear to everybody. Otherwise this god is either unable or unwilling to make it clear. The former would imply it isn't really a god in the normal sense, and the latter would imply it isn't being just and fair.

There is no prima facie case that any god(s) exist and very good reasons to think that a just, fair, and almighty god is inconsistent with the reality we observe.

You're also (like so many monotheists) talking as if 'God' is one single concept. In fact people believe in many, many different and contradictory versions, so at least most of them have got it wrong. This again underlines that there is good reason to think there is no just and fair god with an important message.

And what if logical expectations and prima facie cases have no currency in the world of the spirit?

 

[ratiocinator]

And what if logical expectations and prima facie cases have no currency in the world of the spirit?

I'm only human and life is way too short to look too hard into every apparently baseless claim that looks illogical. If some god wants to judge me or disadvantage me for that, so be it. If that is the case, it doesn't sound like the sort of being I'd want know anyway.

 

[Colt]

Its been my experience that Atheist use the imperfection and failings of religions and religious people as an excuse not to seek God within. If one could "prove" their relationship with the God within then the Atheist would still have to find God within themselves.

If someone doesn't really want to find God there isn't anything you can say to them that is right! I someone truly desires to find God then there isn't really anything you can say wrong because the birth of faith has already occurred within them.

 

[ratiocinator]

Its been my experience that Atheist use the imperfection and failings of religions and religious people as an excuse not to seek God within.

Why would I need any sort of excuse? What's the reason to think that seeking god within is even possible, let alone worth doing? Why would it have to be humans that would have to seek a real god it it existed? If it had an important message for us and it was remotely just and fair, why wouldn't it make itself known clearly and unambiguously?

 

[leroy]

You seem to be really hung up on proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It shouldn't deter you. Let me further clarify. Proof must be beyond a reasonable doubt. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof that leaves one firmly convinced of the evidence. If, based on the consideration of the evidence, you are firmly convinced that the evidence is factual, you must adjust your position. You're making extraordinary claims, of course the definition for the standard of the evidence will be as rigorous as possible. Once again absolute certainty is not required. You do not have to make me absolutely certain you are correct. You simply need to present arguments that meet an uncompromising quality made necessary by the sensationalism of your claims. Lastly, shifting the burden of proof isn't my tactic. It's yours. We can easily prove the natural world beyond a reasonable doubt. You are standing in it right now. for example looking at a computer as am I. I can see how your cognitive assumptions are distorting your view. You are arguing in favor of the supernatural in some sense are you not? Why worry about the natural world. Unfortunately, I do not have a model of the supernatural to compare against our natural world. I only have the natural world as reference in our upcoming debate. Though honestly, I doubt it will be an issue for either of us as I will be using critical thinking, the laws of logic, logical fallacies, and a systematic approach to test the veracity of claims made. We have yet to determine who's epistemology is better. Though frankly that is not important to me. What is important is that you are willing to apply the same rigorous skepticism I am. Let me know if you have any additional questions. .

We can easily prove the natural world beyond a reasonable doubt.

yes but can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that nature is all there is?


...
but anyway I find the fine tuning argument very convincing.... why isn't this argument good enough for you.?

I suggest that God is the best explanation for the FT of the universe, if you think you have a better explanation feel free to share it and discuss which explanation is better

. this is a summary of the FT argument
https://crossexamined.org/the-argument-from-cosmic-fine-tuning/



+ just to be clear, I Dont claim that the FT argument proves God beyond reasonable doubt, but I do claim that it's the best explanation..... which in my opinion it's enough to justify theism (you don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt)

 

[Colt]

Why would I need any sort of excuse? What's the reason to think that seeking god within is even possible, let alone worth doing? Why would it have to be humans that would have to seek a real god it it existed? If it had an important message for us and it was remotely just and fair, why wouldn't it make itself known clearly and unambiguously?

Life is designed for us to find "truth, beauty and goodness" through living experience. Experience is the thing of supreme value in training.

* Proof of God comes through experiencing God. (If you really desire to find the Loving Father then you will need to do that work yourself rather than demanding second hand reports from those who have.)

Even embarking on a secular education does involve some degree of "faith" that its necessary in life going forward. Or did we sit in kindergarten, arms crossed screaming "prove to me that any of this education régime makes any sense FIRST before I agree to go through with it!"

* The reason is if you want to continue on into the search for all truth and life eternal, then you will need to cooperate. If you don't want that its your choice.

* Human things must first be known in order to be loved. Divine things must be loved in order to be known.

* Judas proved that "unambiguous" proof still isn't enough.

***If you are sincere and really want to find a descent explanation then I recommend the Urantia Book. Its not a religion but it does claim to be a revelation. No membership dues, no preachers, no church, read alone, by yourself.

 

[ratiocinator]

Life is designed for us to find "truth, beauty and goodness" through living experience.

I see no design. Why do you think that?

* Proof of God comes through experiencing God. (If you really desire to find the Loving Father then you will need to do that work yourself rather than demanding second hand reports from those who have.)

Yes, as I've already explained (#336, #350), I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and got over it. If you really desire something, it's very easy to fool yourself into thinking you've found it.

Even embarking on a secular education does involve some degree of "faith" that its necessary in life going forward.

Not in the same sense of the word as religious faith, no. A good 'secular' education will teach you to question things (which is part of how I escaped from faith).

* The reason is if you want to continue on into the search for all truth and life eternal, then you will need to cooperate. If you don't want that its your choice.

What reason is there to think this is a real choice? I see nothing in people of faith that suggests that any of them have found something that is objectively real. Since their beliefs are contradictory, at least most of them have got a lot wrong.

* Human things must first be known in order to be loved. Divine things must be loved in order to be known.

You can't love something you have no reason to think exists.

* Judas proved that "unambiguous" proof still isn't enough.

Judas is a character in an old book.

 

[Marcion]

Exactly the sort of thing I would have said......

Noone can force you not to waste this life. You're free to make the choice.
There are always next lives. All will get liberation, eventually.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I highly doubt you'll end up in hell either.

Cheeky just-woke-up interjection: everyone goes to Hel lol

Life is designed for us to find "truth, beauty and goodness"

Then why does life try so hard to kill us?

 

[Colt]

Cheeky just-woke-up interjection: everyone goes to Hel lol


Then why does life try so hard to kill us?

I guess I've always been a positive type of person and don't see life trying to kill me. I have however been self destructive at times and took responsibility for that. This first world wasn't designed to be our permanent home.