Do we really have free will?

[Aupmanyav]

However, that does not mean that everything is decreed (predetermined) by God. If that was true, we would all just be God's puppets on a string with no ability to choose.

Everything that will happen to us has already been written on the Tablet of Fate, but we can alter some of what will be written on the Tablet of Fate by the decisions we make and the actions that ensue. In other words, we can alter what would have been written on the Tablet of Fate by the decisions we make. It is however important to note that we can ONLY alter a conditional or impending fate, not a decreed fate.

No God for atheists and no pre-ordainer. What happens in the world is by chance and probability. One may term 'what happens' as fate written on the 'tablet' (Bahais are so enamored of 'tablets'. If one can change it, it is not fate. On page 3, you did not have many Bahai quotes. But I see that you have compensated that on page 5.

You said: "Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints".

And as for prayers, my experience has been, God almost always, disagrees with what I asked Him.

That is not a very nice God. You may choose some other. There are many.

That is one reason I never ask for anything in particular, I just ask for assistance such as in the Remover of Difficulties prayer.

Has he responded to you? What about your husband's health?

And whether we Like it or not, seems we are puppets of God.

Trailblazer said we are not.

 

[ChristineM]

That might work for some things, but I don't think it works for every decision. Usually when I cannot decide to do something there is a reason I cannot decide and by waiting instead of acting I averted a mistake I could have made. I can think of many examples of this.

It obviously depends on the target of the decision but a little thought will tell you if it needs doing or not. If you see it's a wrong decision then the decision not to do is is just as important. Decision made

 

[RestlessSoul]

If all the matter and all the energy in the universe originated with a single causal event - the Big Bang - and if that universe is governed by precise, immutable laws, doesn't it follow that everything which subsequently occurs was inevitable from that moment of inception?

 

[stvdv]

Even though I believe that God is omniscient, I also believe that ''my'' free will, whether it may be illusory or not, feels real. Seems real. Deciding to post in this thread is known by God before I do it (my belief), but I'm making the choice. (or so it feels that way)

I don't believe that God wants to confuse things, this may be because I've come to overthink free will.

I agree

The confusing part is due to lack of vision

Knowing we humans are tiny, the Universe is huge, hence humans can't fully understand

 

[Nimos]

Do you think we have free will to make choices or do you think that fate/God is controlling everything we do? In other words, can we make our own choices or is everything we will ever do already been decided upon by God and we are just acting out what has been written on the Tablet of Fate? Are we all just actors in a movie that God has scripted?

Not that im an expert on what im about to say, so it might be wrong. But I think we can make some thought experiments about it at least. Unless God intervene in our lives, I don't think it would make any difference in regards to free will, whether he existed or not.

To keep it simple, let's say that we knew exactly what our Universe were made of and we had a supercomputer with unlimited capacity to calculate things for us. Now imagine our Universe like this:

Where the top left image would be the beginning of the universe and the bottom right some undefined ending in the future. If we take a picture in the middle somewhere and say that this is where we are now. Then we could in theory predict what would happen in the future, if we knew everything about the former state everything that made up the Universe were in, so predicting ahead one billions of a second, we could calculate exactly how it would look. The only stage which we couldn't predict would be the very first one, because here we would have no pass data to make predictions from, meaning that the first image could jump directly to the third image, rather than the second. However since we are not at the first image, we already know what happened at that point, so if we reversed the universe, we would get back to the beginning, and if we forwarded again, we would end up the exact same place. And forward a bit more and we could predict the future.

This would obviously mean that we wouldn't have free will, because everything is determined by the former events. Hench the idea of determinism.

However this is where things gets a bit complicated Because in the example above I just assumed that we could know everything about everything, but it turns out from what I can understand, that we can't know everything, quantum mechanics seems to cause some issues here, as we have to rely on probabilities.

Predictions of quantum mechanics have been verified experimentally to an extremely high degree of accuracy. A fundamental feature of the theory is that it usually cannot predict with certainty what will happen, but only give probabilities.

Again im no expert in this and it is just a thought experiment But if it relies on probabilities:

Probability is the branch of mathematics concerning numerical descriptions of how likely an event is to occur, or how likely it is that a proposition is true. The probability of an event is a number between 0 and 1, where, roughly speaking, 0 indicates impossibility of the event and 1 indicates certainty.

Then if we went back in time and started from scratch at image two, it's not certain that the probabilities would turn out exactly as the did before, if the probability of something happening is for instance 0.65, it would mean that it wouldn't be 100% certain. It's important to point out that this is on a subatomic level. So it wouldn't interfere with our abilities to for instance predict ahead of time, like us being able to predict that in 3 days Earth will be in certain position.

But where it could be interesting is in regards to determinism which say...:

Determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. ... The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational because complete knowledge of any given situation assures that unerring knowledge of its future is also possible.

Even though this might be true for quantum mechanic as well, it wouldn't be true in the very moment where we have to determine the state of these subatomic particles as I see it, because of this probability factor it could have gone whatever way. And therefore it appears to be determined, as if there were only one way it could ever have gone, which is the very one we experience obviously. But again rewind several images and run it again, and our experience of the Universe being determined is exactly as we would feel now, despite that it might be completely different, because none of the probabilities ended up as they were before.

Our mind or the decisions we make are not made out of the blue for no reason, but are based on former events, current situations, estimates, experiences, instincts etc. For instance, you making a choice to run over the street, could be made because a car is coming at you at high speed, so you make an estimate of the current situation that, if you don't hurry up it will hit you. But was it determined that you should be in that spot at that very moment or not, so you could make that exact decision? If everything was determining before hand going all the way back to the beginning of the universe, surely that seems to be the case and you actually had no choice in the matter at all, but given that there is no guarantee that going forward in time again would result in the same thing. Is it then truly determined or is it just an illusion of there being only one option?

Im not sure we can tell the difference and therefore not sure if free will is determined either depending on how you look at it. But I do think that most people live with the impression that we do have free will with restrictions, whether it is an illusion or not.

Again I can't stress enough that I don't know a lot about these things or quantum mechanics etc. That I might very well be completely wrong about everything written here, due to my lack of knowledge

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I agree with you there, but it is not the same for the rest of us.

Why not?
Just as there is the Sun, moon, stars,...and other Ordinary planets, and all were created by God for a reason, so, are Bahaullah, Abdulbaha, and the rest of us, are created in the way we are.

For example see what Bahaullah said:



"For Pharaoh and his like were created by a word from Moses. The world of spirits is monochrome, all the same color, and therein no conflict or struggle can take place, for the underlying causes of conflict are not visible. "



It is written that God creates both light and darkness. Both good and evil. He creates all of us, the way we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

So let us explore what "moral choices" could mean.
I wish you can give me a moral choice (better if more than one) which doesn't reflect our natural human instincts, directly or indirectly.
Thank you.

We can choose untruth, cruelty and injustice or we can choose love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, these things were not determined by ourselves

But I believe that what happens after we are born and become adults is determined by ourselves. Free will does not mean that we are free to do “anything” we want to do but humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity, or at the mercy of God to make our choices for us.

I can agree that some people are severely limited in the choices they are able to make, as I am one such person.

That is not a fair example, because he was not just an ordinary man. His father was a Manifestation of God so he had a special destiny to fulfill, but he still had to make everyday choices in his life, as we all do.

It only appears we are making choices.

On what basis do we make choices?

We make choices based on our knowledge, experience, and our attributes.

But where or how did we aquire our attributes and knowledge?

We aquire them from environment.
So, for example, if as soon as you and I were born, they had given us to a family in Africa to bring up. Then we would have become totally different people. So, this is how the environment shape us. Do we choose the environment for ourselves? No, it is fate and destiny. So, you might have had a healthy environment and wise parents, another had a different environment.
Then it is out genetics which we inherent. Do we choose our genetics or it is fate and destiny? No, we do not choose our genetics either. So, how smart, good looking, healthy we are was not our choice either. It was determined by genetics.
So, what is left of us, that we really chose for ourselves? What remains there that you can say it was you who made the choice?

 

[Trailblazer]

This is a common issue for anybody wanting to dedicate themselves entirely to their relationship with God. It is why some choose a monastic life and I would say it is one of the reasons for hermitage too.

We choose to abandon close worldly relationships and possessions because we see them as distractions that interfere with our spiritual calling.

Some call it crazy, others selfish …and in ways, that is understandable - especially when it is done without proper preparation. Because it is not just a question of oneself being “ready” to take on such a lifestyle; a responsible person will also ensure that others in their life too are “ready” for them to do so.

People who want to dedicate themselves entirely to their relationship with God might choose a monastic life. I don't consider that selfish but it is not what the Baha'i are enjoined to do. We are enjoined to associate with all the peoples of the world in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship, so we cannot be cut off from the world.

The problem for me is not other people, it is the "things" of the material world. Had I made different choices I would be living a more simple lifestyle, but those are not the choices that I made because I was in a different place in my life when I made those choices, I was a different person from who I am now.

I do not want to dedicate myself to my personal relationship with God, I want to dedicate myself to a life of service to God by helping other people.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not a very nice God. You may choose some other. There are many.

Unfortunately, choosing a God is not like buying a new pair of shoes. There are not many to chose from, there is only one true God.

Has he responded to you? What about your husband's health?

I have not asked. I just accept God's Will, whatever it is. I don't know about his health yet. He is going for more tests on Friday.

Trailblazer said we are not.

I do not think we are God's puppets on a string because that would make no sense.
We can make choices even though those choices are constrained by many factors.

 

[Trailblazer]

It only appears we are making choices.

On what basis do we make choices?

We make choices based on our knowledge, experience, and our attributes.

But where or how did we aquire our attributes and knowledge?

We aquire them from environment.
So, for example, if as soon as you and I were born, they had given us to a family in Africa to bring up. Then we would have become totally different people. So, this is how the environment shape us. Do we choose the environment for ourselves? No, it is fate and destiny. So, you might have had a healthy environment and wise parents, another had a different environment.
Then it is out genetics which we inherent. Do we choose our genetics or it is fate and destiny? No, we do not choose our genetics either. So, how smart, good looking, healthy we are was not our choice either. It was determined by genetics.
So, what is left of us, that we really chose for ourselves? What remains there that you can say it was you who made the choice?

Much of who we are is determined by where we were born, the family we were born into, how we were brought up by our parents, and the genes we inherited. What happens to us later in life is largely determined by all of that, but we can still make choices withing certain parameters. We can choose to go to college if we can afford it and we can choose a certain career, we can choose to get married if we find the right person and we can choose to have children if we want them. We can choose to do many things in life if we have the opportunities. We have a will to make choices.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge. Every created thing will be enabled (so great is this reflecting power) to reveal the potentialities of its pre-ordained station, will recognize its capacity and limitations, and will testify to the truth that “He, verily, is God; there is none other God besides Him.”….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

 

[McBell]

That too depends on circumstances. When I was a child we did not get apples in our place (Jodhpur, Rajasthan, India, and its small towns where my father was posted as the government doctor). So, I never developed taste for apples, many other vegetables.
In childhood we did not wear bermudas. So, I have a distinct distaste for bermudas. So also for hair cuts. In all conservative. Now, at the age nearing 80, my preferences remain the same. Therefore what you do today may have its roots in your childhood. Just like parental religions.

What does this have to do with free will?

 

[Aupmanyav]

These influences become ingrained and partly decide your actions. Decision making has innumerable variables. And we think we are in full control of our will.

 

[McBell]

These influences become ingrained and partly decide your actions.

I disagree with your use of the word "decide".
Influences are just that, influences.
That some people are slaves to their impulses, influences, etc. does not mean they have to be.
In fact, some people would say they choose to be.

Decision making has innumerable variables.

And?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Much of who we are is determined by where we were born, the family we were born into, how we were brought up by our parents, and the genes we inherited. What happens to us later in life is largely determined by all of that, but we can still make choices withing certain parameters. We can choose to go to college if we can afford it and we can choose a certain career, we can choose to get married if we find the right person and we can choose to have children if we want them. We can choose to do many things in life if we have the opportunities. We have a will to make choices.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is the mirror of His beauty in the world of creation. The greater the effort exerted for the refinement of this sublime and noble mirror, the more faithfully will it be made to reflect the glory of the names and attributes of God, and reveal the wonders of His signs and knowledge. Every created thing will be enabled (so great is this reflecting power) to reveal the potentialities of its pre-ordained station, will recognize its capacity and limitations, and will testify to the truth that “He, verily, is God; there is none other God besides Him.”….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

It appears we make the choice to get married or go to college.

But how do we make these choices?

I went to university and studied engineering with Masters degree.
But, the reality is that, it was because, I had a father who was good at math, and when I was a child he played many logical games with me. So, this is how I ended up having potential for studying engineering. Later when I was in my early 20, one of my uncles suggested I study engineering. My uncle was a engineering professor.

What I mean, is, if we really think about it, every little choice it appears we made, in reality it was result of influence of others and environment. If my dad was not into math, or if I did not have an uncle who suggested I study engineering, would I have done that. NO!.

Of course there are people who are engineers and they did not have an uncle or dad like mine, but they were certainly influenced by a friend, a relative, a neighbor or perhaps even by watching a movie that they happened to watch.
It turns out, we are really product of our environment completely. All of these were not our choice. You do not choose your uncle, or you siblings, and all of these from beginning have an effect on making who you become. So, again, what is it that we really choose?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes we all have free will. Anybody reading this can turn their computer off right now ... or not. The challenge is in to what degree we can exercise it.

 

[McBell]

It appears we make the choice to get married or go to college.

But how do we make these choices?

I went to university and studied engineering with Masters degree.
But, the reality is that, it was because, I had a father who was good at math, and when I was a child he played many logical games with me. So, this is how I ended up having potential for studying engineering. Later when I was in my early 20, one of my uncles suggested I study engineering. My uncle was a engineering professor.

What I mean, is, if we really think about it, every little choice it appears we made, in reality it was result of influence of others and environment. If my dad was not into math, or if I did not have an uncle who suggested I study engineering, would I have done that. NO!.

Of course there are people who are engineers and they did not have an uncle or dad like mine, but they were certainly influenced by a friend, a relative, a neighbor or perhaps even by watching a movie that they happened to watch.
It turns out, we are really product of our environment completely. All of these were not our choice. You do not choose your uncle, or you siblings, and all of these from beginning have an effect on making who you become. So, again, what is it that we really choose?

Was it your intention for this to come off as you being to weak willed to make any decision on your own so you blame anything and everything else?

 

[Trailblazer]

It appears we make the choice to get married or go to college.

But how do we make these choices?

I went to university and studied engineering with Masters degree.
But, the reality is that, it was because, I had a father who was good at math, and when I was a child he played many logical games with me. So, this is how I ended up having potential for studying engineering. Later when I was in my early 20, one of my uncles suggested I study engineering. My uncle was a engineering professor.

What I mean, is, if we really think about it, every little choice it appears we made, in reality it was result of influence of others and environment. If my dad was not into math, or if I did not have an uncle who suggested I study engineering, would I have done that. NO!.

Of course there are people who are engineers and they did not have an uncle or dad like mine, but they were certainly influenced by a friend, a relative, a neighbor or perhaps even by watching a movie that they happened to watch.
It turns out, we are really product of our environment completely. All of these were not our choice. You do not choose your uncle, or you siblings, and all of these from beginning have an effect on making who you become. So, again, what is it that we really choose?

I was also influenced by my parents. My father had an IQ of 160, my mother 140. My father had a PhD in English literature and that is probably why I like writing so much. I used to grade his English papers when I was 10 years old. I probably valued education because both my parents went to college. All three of us children went to college; my brother got a BA degree, my sister got an MA degree, and I got two MA degrees and a degree in homeopathic medicine.

But I still had to choose which colleges I would go to and what degrees I would get.

Neither one of my parents were religious and I was not brought up in a religion, so why do you think I chose to become a Baha'i during my first year of college?

I was not brought up loving animals at all, and I did not know anyone who was an animal lover, but later I became an animal lover. How do you explain that?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes we all have free will. Anybody reading this can turn their computer off right now ... or not. The challenge is in to what degree we can exercise it.

But how do you know the decision you make was not pre-ordained? Making the sensation of choice illusory?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I was also influenced by my parents. My father had an IQ of 160, my mother 140. My father had a PhD in English literature and that is probably why I like writing so much. I used to grade his English papers when I was 10 years old. I probably valued education because both my parents went to college. All three of us children went to college; my brother got a BA degree, my sister got an MA degree, and I got two MA degrees and a degree in homeopathic medicine.

But I still had to choose which colleges I would go to and what degrees I would get.

Neither one of my parents were religious and I was not brought up in a religion, so why do you think I chose to become a Baha'i during my first year of college?

I was not brought up loving animals at all, and I did not know anyone who was an animal lover, but later I became an animal lover. How do you explain that?

I don't know why you choose your field of study or the Bahai faith.
But if you really think about it, you were influenced by something or someones.
If you were not, you would nor have come to this direction. There are always, some external influences that cause you to go in a certain direction.

It is like, suppose you come to a place where there are 3 roads ahead of you. The entrance in first one, has fire, and in the second road, there is a lion. The third road, seems to be safe.
So, which direction you go? You go to the third road. Not because you chose it, but because you had no other choice, as the first two roads sounded dangerous. So, is everything else in life. I mean, it only appears you have many choices, to choose from. But the reality is, you are just forced to go into certain directions, simply because you would fit into that direction. It is because the environment and your genes had already shaped you for a certain direction.