Do we really have free will?

[Trailblazer]

“If, now, your right eye is making you stumble,” said Jesus Christ, “tear it out and throw it away from you.” (Matthew 5:29) Of course, Jesus was not speaking literally! Rather, he meant that if we want to please God and gain everlasting life, we must deaden our body members, as it were, in regard to wrongdoing. (Colossians 3:5) That may mean resolutely turning our back on a temptation. “Turn my eyes away from looking at what is worthless,” prayed a faithful man of God.—Psalm 119:37.

I also like the high moral standards of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which is something that is difficult to come by in these decadent times. My religion also has very high moral standards and the following passage speaks to what Paul said in Col 3:5.

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

 

[KerimF]

We can choose untruth, cruelty and injustice or we can choose love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

"love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice" are indeed great words. But are they always not related to one's instincts?

[Love]
Isn't it natural that a parent loves his children?
Isn't it natural that a husband loves his wife and a wife loves her husband since they live under one roof?
Isn't it natural that a human loves whoever loves him?
....
But, it is not natural when someone resists his instincts of survival and loves even his enemies and doesn't defend himself while he has all the means to destroy them. This Love only does feed one's higher nature.

[Mercy, Kindness]
For someone to have the ability to be merciful and kind, he has to be strong; stronger than who may need his mercy and kindness. And to be stronger than some others, he has to follow the guidance of his instincts better than they do.
But, it is not natural when someone is not weak and resists his instincts of survival by having mercy on anyone looking to hurt him. This Mercy and Kindness only does feed one's higher nature.

[Truth]
‘Truth’ is always defined relative to the observer.
But if it means being sincere, only those who perceive a higher nature (soul/spirit) in their being can, if they want to, be sincere in any situation they may face.

[Justice]
There is no justice (based on imposed rules) which is not inspired by the human instincts of survival.
In other words, applying justice on others is always related to one’s material nature.


But there is nothing wrong or bad when someone believes he is a free being while, in reality, he has no choice but being guided by the rather very complex pre-programmed instructions/code (instincts) embedded in the cells of his living flesh.

Only living the unconditional love, as revealed by Jesus, could be seen as a free choice (superseding all pre-programmed instincts of survival).

 

[Trailblazer]

But there is nothing wrong or bad when someone believes he is a free being while, in reality, he has no choice but being guided by the rather very complex pre-programmed instructions/code (instincts) embedded in the cells of his living flesh.

I do not believe that humans are pre-programmed. I believe we all have free will to choose.

Only living the unconditional love, as revealed by Jesus, could be seen as a free choice (superseding all pre-programmed instincts of survival).

And you believe that people can choose only that?

 

[Clara Tea]

I also like the high moral standards of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which is something that is difficult to come by in these decadent times. My religion also has very high moral standards and the following passage speaks to what Paul said in Col 3:5.

“My captivity can bring on Me no shame. Nay, by My life, it conferreth on Me glory. That which can make Me ashamed is the conduct of such of My followers as profess to love Me, yet in fact follow the Evil One. They, indeed, are of the lost.

When the time set for this Revelation was fulfilled, and He Who is the Day Star of the world appeared in ‘Iráq, He bade His followers observe that which would sanctify them from all earthly defilements. Some preferred to follow the desires of a corrupt inclination, while others walked in the way of righteousness and truth, and were rightly guided.

Say: He is not to be numbered with the people of Bahá who followeth his mundane desires, or fixeth his heart on things of the earth. He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold, will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is, assuredly, of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity…. And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one, indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 117-118

All Christians have high moral standards. But, if you don't like their standards, they can lower them or change them. War? No problem. Torture camps? No problem. Tell lies to promote wars? No problem. Ignore the homeless? No problem. Destroy God's environment (nature)? No problem. The world is messed up, not because we don't know God's requirements, but because we don't follow them.

We recognize our sins by the reaction of others. For example: Many rallied in support of the Georgia state flag (which was also the flag of the Confederacy, and meant continuation of slavery). Blacks objected, and Whites were miffed. We can't see our own shortcomings.

Conscientious objectors (those who oppose war) are sometimes jailed. Their incarceration is not a source of shame, but an honor, showing that their principles survived intact. They can't be bought.

We may not always believe as others do, but we can still respect their steadfast devotion to principles of honor and devotion....such were the Jews in Nazi Germany who stuck by their religion while cruelties were heaped upon them.

 

[Clara Tea]

No God for atheists and no pre-ordainer. What happens in the world is by chance and probability. One may term 'what happens' as fate written on the 'tablet' (Bahais are so enamored of 'tablets'. If one can change it, it is not fate. On page 3, you did not have many Bahai quotes. But I see that you have compensated that on page 5.

You said: "Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints".That is not a very nice God. You may choose some other. There are many.Has he responded to you? What about your husband's health?
Trailblazer said we are not.

Fate is where you end up. You can change that fate, so it will be a different fate (but a fate, nonetheless).

 

[KerimF]

I do not believe that humans are pre-programmed. I believe we all have free will to choose.

This is the beauty in our creation, one believes he is free while all his decisions towards himself and others follow his 'personal' instincts. I added the word 'personal' because although most instructions of human instincts are common, there are always some instructions which are unique to each person (as his fingerprint and DNA...).

Therefore, I will be real surprised if you tell me that you don't believe you are free, because I know that you (like billions of humans) are pre-programmed to believe you are free
It is like I hear an American friend telling me that he lives in a free country while I know he has zillion of rules/regulations that he has to obey/observe since he wakes up till he is asleep again. Fortunately, he is also used to live in a city in which zillion of security cameras take care of him anywhere he goes, besides other tracking tools

And you believe that people can choose only that?

And if a person has a material nature only (born with a human living flesh only or lost his soul) cannot even choose it.

 

[We Never Know]

Actually, anyone that posts here on this forum, I included, just follows the pre-programmed instructions (instincts), embedded in his living flesh by the WILL behind his existence.
The good news is that we have all the impression that we are free every time we take a decision. A decision is actually just the execution of a conditional jump (in our instincts code/program); much like an intelligent robot is programmed to do when facing a new situation.

This explains why no one liked commenting on my post #34 because humans are supposed to believe they are free even if they have (other than their instincts) zillion of rules/regulations to obey/observe, from the time they wake up to the time they are asleep again

I have no instincts to come here and post. I do so by choice.

 

[KerimF]

I have no instincts to come here and post. I do so by choice.

Me too, I like (or, at least, don't mind) to believe that I 'have to' reply you by choice

 

[Aupmanyav]

Fate is where you end up. You can change that fate, so it will be a different fate (but a fate, nonetheless).

In my belief you cannot make any difference. There are innumerable variables and things will happen. Emperor Humayun after regaining his empire slipped on the staircase of his library and died. That is why Krishna says in Gita (not that I believe Krishna is real"

"our actions alone are in your handsbut never the results of your action." (Karmaneyvadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachana).
Krishna knew about theories of probability and uncertainty.

 

[halbhh]

God has knowledge of the physical realm, our past, present and future, since God is omniscient, but God is not constrained by time because time as we know it and measure it does not exist in the spiritual realm where God exists.

This is such a crucial, key set of beliefs. When a person thinks that God can foresee all things that will happen to you ahead of time (and all of your choices, instead of simply many of them), then that can seem to make Him guilty of all bad things that happen, the very things He is in reality working to correct/make right. Why should He allow innocents to suffer (which has a good answer actually -- He rectifies suffering in time, and then forever!), but even temporarily? (in that case of total foresight of every last thing ahead of time, an idea or interpretation that doesn't fit the common bible well)


But, the idea that God foresees all future things -- instead of a more limited but profound level of foresight like seeing directions/trends, outcomes that would happen from those trends if unchanged, and many near term things -- the idea of total future seeing of all things isn't agreeing with the scriptures we have in the common bible.

Instead, God has chosen to cause certain outcomes that actually matter in the long run, ultimate outcomes, to create/bring about these one way or another, eventually.
When the time is ripe.

Of course, God knows what He intends to accomplish, and which He will, in time, regardless of the unpredictable things we may do (along with the predictable things we will do).

 

[Trailblazer]

And if a person has a material nature only (born with a human living flesh only or lost his soul) cannot even choose it.

I do not believe that anyone is born with a material nature only. I believe that all humans have two natures, and they can choose to act upon either one of these natures by virtue of having free will to make moral choices.

Moreover, all imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

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What I believe Jesus meant by losing our soul is that we lose eternal life, which is nearness to God.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus shall gain eternal life. So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His way.

 

[Trailblazer]

-- the idea of total future seeing of all things isn't agreeing with the scriptures we have in the common bible. Instead, God has chosen to cause certain outcomes that actually matter in the long run, ultimate outcomes, to create/bring about these one way or another, eventually.
When the time is ripe.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that God cannot see into the future? If God is omniscient then God knows everything, including the future. How would that contradict God causing certain outcomes? How do you think God causes outcomes?

 

[halbhh]

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that God cannot see into the future? If God is omniscient then God knows everything, including the future. How would that contradict God causing certain outcomes? How do you think God causes outcomes?

This is a deep and crucial question, and the fates of billions are involved, so I'll give it more detail and care to answer carefully and fully.

It's the conclusion from total and complete reading of scripture, so that instead of having just some verses about God seeing some things ahead of time only, we get a more complete picture that fills out the total situation.

Also, God would not have to make nature predictable, if He chose not to -- He could create it either fully predictable or just partly so and also partly unpredictable, by His own preference. Either way it would look the same, but with a subtle but key difference that only sometimes is clear.

(In modern physics in "Bell Test Experiments" we have seen so far results that are strongly suggesting that the idea of definite local realism (a clockwork universe basically) isn't the case -- i.e. that nature itself doesn't have a entirely predetermined future, physically!).

But here are some passages where you can see we have real choices that are not pre-determined, and also that God doesn't foresee them all! (there are more passages, many, but here are some helpful ones).

First, a related aspect: for the instructions in the Bible to make sense, then we have to be able to make real choices -- choices that aren't already fixed/predetermined:

So, this first passage is longer, but there are totally different kinds of passages below it to see also.

"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
...(many more blessings listed...)
...

15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
( .... many more curses listed....)
....You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. ..."
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28 - New International Version

Real choices, and real responses from God.
---

Next: God not foreseeing the overall level of wickedness the human race would descend down into --

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6 - New International Version

----

31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 7:31 - English Standard Version

There are more, but these should show the general situation. Along with this very key passage, crucial, of Isaiah chapter 46:

10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version

Here, we read that God will do something to alter the situation and "bring about" what He intends to be the final outcome.

He can of course 'foresee' what He chooses to make happen, one way or another, eventually!....

He indeed does fore-know that outcome, the one He has chosen to bring about.

 

[Trailblazer]

But here are some passages where you can see we have real choices that are not pre-determined, and also that God doesn't foresee them all! (there are more passages, many, but here are some helpful ones).

First, a related aspect: for the instructions in the Bible to make sense, then we have to be able to make real choices -- choices that aren't already fixed/predetermined:

I agree that our choices are not predetermined but that does not mean that God does not know what our choices will be before we make them, that does not mean that God does not foresee them all.

So, this first passage is longer, but there are totally different kinds of passages below it to see also.

"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:

3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
...(many more blessings listed...)
...

15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.
( .... many more curses listed....)
....You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you. ..."
Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 28 - New International Version

Real choices, and real responses from God.
---

Next: God not foreseeing the overall level of wickedness the human race would descend down into --

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6 - New International Version

----

31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 7:31 - English Standard Version

There are more, but these should show the general situation. Along with this very key passage, crucial, of Isaiah chapter 46:

10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version

Here, we read that God will do something to alter the situation and "bring about" what He intends to be the final outcome.

He can of course 'foresee' what He chooses to make happen, one way or another, eventually!....

He indeed does fore-know that outcome, the one He has chosen to bring about.

Okay, but these verses do not say that God did not foresee the future.

 

[halbhh]

Okay, but these verses do not say that God did not foresee the future.

What do you think of the 2nd passage, precisely?

2nd question: Why would God "summon" someone to "bring about" a goal He chooses, in the last passage?

 

[KerimF]

I do not believe that anyone is born with a material nature only. I believe that all humans have two natures, and they can choose to act upon either one of these natures by virtue of having free will to make moral choices.

Moreover, all imperfection comes from our physical nature, our spiritual nature is purely good.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
What I believe Jesus meant by losing our soul is that we lose eternal life, which is nearness to God.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus was saying to deny our selfish desires, things we want that are not of God, and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for self shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus shall gain eternal life. So if we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul because we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God, which according to Jesus comes from believing in Him and following in His way.

One, mainly a newcomer into life, usually likes seeing the world as he likes it to be. In other words, he sees himself (his nature) as being the reference that defines how the world is supposed to be.
This was my case in my first 30 years
Then, I realized that the best thing I can do, in order to build my set of knowledge properly, is to discover the world as it is created (not as I like it to be); e.i. how it runs in reality, based on my own observations and logical reasoning.

It seems you are sure that you have two natures, material (flesh) and spiritual (soul). So it is natural that you suppose that all humans are also created of the same structure as yours; otherwise your Creator would be unfair
And if we ask an atheist, he will also tell us that all humans have just a living flesh only
On my side, I know that you and an atheist have no reason at all to fool yourselves and each describes how he perceives his own nature. And it doesn’t matter what each of you thinks about the other one.

Back to the spiritual nature (soul/spirit), don’t you think it is immortal?
But, if someone didn’t have any chance to be good towards others, what could happen to his soul?
On the other hand, is defending oneself by killing the attacker good for the soul? If it is good, such soul lets his owner also follow his flesh’s instincts of survival, much like the case of someone who has a living flesh only to take care of.

By the way, I don’t need sacrificing my life for the sake of Jesus (I doubt He may need anything from me), but for the sake of my soul to let it deserve being in God’s Realm of Love, now and after death.

Sorry, but I have to remind you that Jesus (as my Father in Heaven) is not like Allah. Allah created humans just to worship him (this is stated at the beginning of Quran).

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you think of the 2nd passage, precisely?

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6 - New International Version

Previously you said: Next: God not foreseeing the overall level of wickedness the human race would descend down into --

I do not believe that these verses represent what God saw or knew. Frankly, I think these verses are anthropomorphisms. The Lord regretted? God does not have regrets because God never makes mistakes, so that means that everything is exactly as God knew it would be, with His all-encompassing knowledge. So of course God knew the great wickedness that the human race would descend into; God knew it from the very beginning but God knew it would be remedied in the future..

2nd question: Why would God "summon" someone to "bring about" a goal He chooses, in the last passage?

Previously you said: Here, we read that God will do something to alter the situation and "bring about" what He intends to be the final outcome.

He can of course 'foresee' what He chooses to make happen, one way or another, eventually!....

He indeed does fore-know that outcome, the one He has chosen to bring about.

Of course God had foreknowledge of the final outcome, God knows everything that has happened and that ever will happen on earth and in heaven, as well as in the entire universe!

Isaiah chapter 46:

10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 46 - New International Version

God did make the end known from the beginning, as what was to come was all revealed by the prophets in the Old Testament.

God’s Purpose is none other than to bring about the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity and unite humanity.
God accomplished that by sending Baha'u'llah whose Revelation will unite humanity into one fold.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it…

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
[URL='http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-31.html']The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 116-117
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Read more: God’s Purpose

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised to fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 when He returned.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that I will bring about;

Baha'u'llah was the man from the east who God summoned, and if you want I can explain that to you in another post that shows that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies that the return of Christ/Messiah will come from the east, as the Bible says:

Matthew 24:27-28 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Ezekiel 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems you are sure that you have two natures, material (flesh) and spiritual (soul). So it is natural that you suppose that all humans are also created of the same structure as yours; otherwise your Creator would be unfair
And if we ask an atheist, he will also tell us that all humans have just a living flesh only
On my side, I know that you and an atheist have no reason at all to fool yourselves and each describes how he perceives his own nature. And it doesn’t matter what each of you thinks about the other one.

No, it is not me to determines or describes my nature; I do not have access to that kind of knowledge. Rather, it is revealed in the Bible and other scriptures that man has two natures. The whole point of having free will os so we can choose to follow one or the other nature. Atheists do not believe in God so they do not believe humans have a spiritual nature, they believe that all we are is our body.

Back to the spiritual nature (soul/spirit), don’t you think it is immortal?
But, if someone didn’t have any chance to be good towards others, what could happen to his soul?

If someone didn’t have any chance to be good towards others in this earthly life then he would be recompensed by God in the next life, in the spiritual world.

On the other hand, is defending oneself by killing the attacker good for the soul? If it is good, such soul lets his owner also follow his flesh’s instincts of survival, much like the case of someone who has a living flesh only to take care of.

Defending one's life is not good for the soul but it is permissible in certain cases. What would you do if your life was threatened?

By the way, I don’t need sacrificing my life for the sake of Jesus (I doubt He may need anything from me), but for the sake of my soul to let it deserve being in God’s Realm of Love, now and after death.

So you believe that sacrifice is necessary in order to 'get to heaven?' Why?

Sorry, but I have to remind you that Jesus (as my Father in Heaven) is not like Allah. Allah created humans just to worship him (this is stated at the beginning of Quran).

So you believe that Jesus your Father is not like God (Allah)?
Jesus is not the Father, Jesus is the Son. Jesus referred to God as His Father and our Father.
Jesus cannot be both the Father and the Son, much as you want Him to be.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How many times in scripture God is referred as Father in the New testament?

Best Answer

God was referred to as "our Father" 13 times in the Old Testament, Jesus' frequent use of this title brought a whole new understanding of our relationship with God. Jesus referred to God as His father over 150 times, and He spoke of God as being our father 30 times. This infuriated the religious Jews of Jesus' day who considered it blasphemy to call God their father, because they perceived that to mean they were equal with God (John. 5:17-18).

How many times in scripture God is referred as Father in the New testament? - Answers

 

[DODI]

I fully agree with everything you said.
Welcome to the forum. I find the Jehovah's Witness beliefs very refreshing, especially the belief that God is not a Trinity, Jesus is not God, and Jesus rose in a spiritual body rather than a physical one. Correct me if I am wrong about the resurrection, as I am going on memory of what other members have said here.

According to the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 1 Jesus was a god but not the Almighty God Jehovah.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 1 Jesus was a god but not the Almighty God Jehovah.

Can you explain what you mean by that? Doesn't the Bible say that there is only one God? If so, how can be there any other God besides the Almighty God Jehovah?