Noah's flood story, did it happen?

[Subduction Zone]

No, scientists did not disprove a historical event described in the Bible because the Biblical history was actually confirmed by the DNA discovery.

The headline more accurately and truthfully should have been...

”DNA Confirms the Bible”

Do New DNA Discoveries Really Disprove the Bible?

Ooh! Ooh! This calls for my favorite crazy argument. I hope that you know that the story of a man waking up in an ice filled bathtub missing a kidney in a seedy motel is an urban myth.

Now the question: Why is that evidence against the Noah's Ark myth?

 

[InChrist]

It has long been shown that the flood described in the Bible could not have taken place as described.

Well, thank you for sharing your view.

 

[InChrist]

Ooh! Ooh! This calls for my favorite crazy argument. I hope that you know that the story of a man waking up in an ice filled bathtub missing a kidney in a seedy motel is an urban myth.

Now the question: Why is that evidence against the Noah's Ark myth?

It’s not.

 

[joelr]

A few months ago I opened a thread about the Biblical description of Creation, and whether science disproved the Bible on its description.
It was a very nice debate with some very intellectual members, and I must admit, that there were quite a few new arguments that came to the front, which I never seen before. Be as it may, my conclusion on the discussion is that there are no evidence in science to disprove the creation narrative, but just as scientists makes assumptions about how eveerything came into being, it is very easy for the Biblical apologist to be ready with other assumptions which is equally sound and not easily debunked.
Therefore, I have yet to see any evidence in science in contradiction with the Bible.


Questions such as the one above is not asked by simply normal joes such as you and I, nope, this is asked by highly educated scientists.
And guess what?
This simple question is actually a statement, by mostly bias thought, not as a question, but as a statement:
And that statement is: "Are you serious? you dont understand a simple logical statement which your Bible speaks about. Only a very stupid uneducated person will believe that there was billions of cubic miles of water covering Everest and the rest of the Earth, without even considering that this water had to come from somewhare, and we dont see that volume everywhere at all today! So where is that water!

If I remember, Carl Sagan asked the exact same question.

From my point of view, I was amased that such highly educated scientists would be so superficial on their observation. let me demonstrate how this strawpuppet they created simply burns out once we take everything into consideration.

When the Earth took shape in the Nebular cloud, and collected ice, gas and other materials, it grew bigger and eventually reached the aproximate size it has today. However, there are many things to consider.
1. The Earth would be much smoother, for there was no continental plate movement in its infancy, therefore when this icy collection warmed up on the surface of the Earth, water appeared, and flowed to areas which was lower than the rest.
2. The crust of this Earth would also thaw out, and would start to "shrink" into itself. As it shrinked, it built up preasure beneath the crust, which had a lot of water in its enterior. (Think of the Russian Cola deep which discovered more water in the rocks that scientists ever thought possible, and the oceans of water collected beneath China in woodite that contains more water than the oceans of the Earth put together.)
3. There must also have been huge quantities of water and ice in and beyond the Earth's atmosphere, which scientists today find very viable after their discoveries of cie rings on moons and planets in our solar system we never previously knew about.

Now that we have the foundations correct on what the Earth looked like after it took shape to before the flood, lets see what happened.

The Earth was a wet and soggy entity. The inland continent was hugh marsh lands and swamps. Evidence that dinosaurs could never have walked on land with their huge boddies, is evidence that they were either reptillian or amphibian. Therefore, taken the above into account, the continents did not appear as it does today.

If the Bible spaeks about high mountains, it speaks of mountains that appeared after the flood, which was perhaps less than 500 meters above sea level before the event.

Good, then for some or other reason, the Earth's crust collapsed into itself, creating a huge crack curcumventing the Earth twice, pushing this water out from below 50 miles of surface, gushing this water out at supersonic speeds, into and way passed the atmosphere.

We have to consider the following factor.
It the Earth's crust fell in upon itself, DUE TO THE INCREASE OF GRAVITY, then the icy ring around the Earth was drawn in from space and rained down on the Earth in water and Ice. Heat generated in this event would turn into snow at the poles, and created one huge Ice age.
As the earth changed from the shape of a nice smooth passionfruit, into a contracted shape of a dried pasionfruit, mountains formed with the earth crust contracting.

Greetings

The Earth formed in the solar system. Nebulas are gas and dust where stars are formed. Stars are gravitationaly ejected from nebulas and attract massive amounts of gas and dust.
In the early SS water had clumped onto asteroids which is one of the main explanations for water on the earth.
There is no way to eject water into space without the earth's gravity pulling it back. Water is heavy and would not launch into space so far it would leave the gravitational limit. None of these ideas are even theories in science.
The world flood is a mythology that occurs in many ancient cultures. Almost 100% of then are cultures that lived near large bodies of water.
Just like the 2 creation myths are taken from Mesopotamian sources so is the flood story.

A world flood has been ruled out by scientists who study related fields.:

Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.[5][6][7][8][9] Modern geology relies on a number of established principles, one of the most important of which is Charles Lyell's principle of uniformitarianism. In relation to geological forces it states that the shaping of the Earth has occurred by means of mostly slow-acting forces that can be seen in operation today. By applying these principles, geologists have determined that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. They study the lithosphere of the Earth to gain information on the history of the planet. Geologists divide Earth's history into eons, eras, periods, epochs, and faunal stages characterized by well-defined breaks in the fossil record (see Geologic time scale).[110][111] In general, there is a lack of any evidence for any of the above effects proposed by flood geologists and their claims of fossil layering are not taken seriously by scientists.
Erosion
Geochronology
Paleontology
Geochemistry
Sedimentary rock features
Each category is elaborated here:
Flood geology - Wikipedia


An ex-Jehova's Witness has done a rather detailed video on the Ark story in the Bible. He covers many questions raised, more than I have ever seen.
ALthough modern flood science has ruled out a world flood this video covers just about every other line of thinking.

 

[Colt]

No, scientists did not disprove a historical event described in the Bible because the Biblical history was actually confirmed by the DNA discovery.

The headline more accurately and truthfully should have been...

”DNA Confirms the Bible”

Do New DNA Discoveries Really Disprove the Bible?

Not true. The exaggerated Bible story says that all the Canaanites were destroyed. (The Israelites were originally a conglomeration of Canaanites and other Semitic groups to begin with, before Egypt and Exodus.)

There is no disputing the existence of "Canaanites".

 

[Subduction Zone]

It’s not.

Wrong. Do you want to learn why you are wrong?

 

[rational experiences]

A few months ago I opened a thread about the Biblical description of Creation, and whether science disproved the Bible on its description.
It was a very nice debate with some very intellectual members, and I must admit, that there were quite a few new arguments that came to the front, which I never seen before. Be as it may, my conclusion on the discussion is that there are no evidence in science to disprove the creation narrative, but just as scientists makes assumptions about how eveerything came into being, it is very easy for the Biblical apologist to be ready with other assumptions which is equally sound and not easily debunked.
Therefore, I have yet to see any evidence in science in contradiction with the Bible.

However, there were quite a few members that continiously arrived at another argument, to validate their viewpoint that the Bible is a compilation of mythology, and not scientific at all.
That argument is...the Noah's flood story...

Again, if one were to read the story of this global flood, and dont want to take many, or as much factors, into consideration to allow the Biblical narative to explain itself, then with a superficial bias are able to discard the story as far fetched made up.

What do I mean with superficial?
Well, a "Global flood"?
One filling the earth to about 20 meters above the highest mountains?
"Are you serious?", the question normally goes, " 20 meters above Everest?
Everest is what, 8850 meters high! If the earth was covered with 8850 meters of water...
"Where did the Water come from, and where did it go?"

Questions such as the one above is not asked by simply normal joes such as you and I, nope, this is asked by highly educated scientists.
And guess what?
This simple question is actually a statement, by mostly bias thought, not as a question, but as a statement:
And that statement is: "Are you serious? you dont understand a simple logical statement which your Bible speaks about. Only a very stupid uneducated person will believe that there was billions of cubic miles of water covering Everest and the rest of the Earth, without even considering that this water had to come from somewhare, and we dont see that volume everywhere at all today! So where is that water!

If I remember, Carl Sagan asked the exact same question.

From my point of view, I was amased that such highly educated scientists would be so superficial on their observation. let me demonstrate how this strawpuppet they created simply burns out once we take everything into consideration.

When the Earth took shape in the Nebular cloud, and collected ice, gas and other materials, it grew bigger and eventually reached the aproximate size it has today. However, there are many things to consider.
1. The Earth would be much smoother, for there was no continental plate movement in its infancy, therefore when this icy collection warmed up on the surface of the Earth, water appeared, and flowed to areas which was lower than the rest.
2. The crust of this Earth would also thaw out, and would start to "shrink" into itself. As it shrinked, it built up preasure beneath the crust, which had a lot of water in its enterior. (Think of the Russian Cola deep which discovered more water in the rocks that scientists ever thought possible, and the oceans of water collected beneath China in woodite that contains more water than the oceans of the Earth put together.)
3. There must also have been huge quantities of water and ice in and beyond the Earth's atmosphere, which scientists today find very viable after their discoveries of cie rings on moons and planets in our solar system we never previously knew about.

Now that we have the foundations correct on what the Earth looked like after it took shape to before the flood, lets see what happened.

The Earth was a wet and soggy entity. The inland continent was hugh marsh lands and swamps. Evidence that dinosaurs could never have walked on land with their huge boddies, is evidence that they were either reptillian or amphibian. Therefore, taken the above into account, the continents did not appear as it does today.

If the Bible spaeks about high mountains, it speaks of mountains that appeared after the flood, which was perhaps less than 500 meters above sea level before the event.

Good, then for some or other reason, the Earth's crust collapsed into itself, creating a huge crack curcumventing the Earth twice, pushing this water out from below 50 miles of surface, gushing this water out at supersonic speeds, into and way passed the atmosphere.

We have to consider the following factor.
It the Earth's crust fell in upon itself, DUE TO THE INCREASE OF GRAVITY, then the icy ring around the Earth was drawn in from space and rained down on the Earth in water and Ice. Heat generated in this event would turn into snow at the poles, and created one huge Ice age.
As the earth changed from the shape of a nice smooth passionfruit, into a contracted shape of a dried pasionfruit, mountains formed with the earth crust contracting.

This was when mountains took shape.
Another factor to keep in mind is the description of the atmosphere from the Bible.
The Bible says that before the flood, it did not rain but a mist rose from the Earth and wet the land. This will be understandable if we take into consideration that the Earth shaped from solids liquid and Gas as per the understanding from the Nebular theory.

However, after the flood A RAINBOW APPEARED FOR THE FIRST TIME!
which means in scientific terms that for the first time the atmosphere was cleared from all its water, and refraction of light was observed.

Now, this had its consequences too. A clear atmosphere will now allow ultraviolet and cosmic radiation, which will on turn, reduce the lifespan of humans. Exactly what we saw happened.

Anyhow, I hope this will be a nice discussion going forward, and I urge anyone who would like to join in, to please take one step at a time.
Nothing is so frustrating as someone coppying and pasting a lot of claims, not expecting any answer.

Greetings

Counting.

A human choice. Applied and reasoned by humans to preach to other humans.

Preaching. To think constantly about science conditions. Human chosen.

To count forty you have to live counting the passing of each day.

You cannot count forty days unless living.

Pre prophecy. A calculus in science.

Human observation. State of natural science is observed.

God O earth heavens natural.

Status God told me as man I was building the state ARK. UFO prophetic future event.

Advised by God states of the earth. Natural awareness innate first. Human psyche. Psychic.

Told. WArned.

Science versus science. Conscience first is natural......science want to change by machine conditions secondary.

Lived notified would occur then flooding occurred. Was told it would flood.

Flooding occurs anywhere. Observed. A human observation to data write observed. Nature's conditions.

Said it will flood all earth above the mountains. Have to live to know a mountain.

WAter in flood is evaporation. Water is our life spirit. Clouds newly form. Ice the newly born earth life saviour present. Melts.

Warning advice. Newly born state.

Water goes above our head. Above mountains. Ice snow snap Freezing one law saviour ice.

Ice presence formed to change earth pressure. Saved earth.

Ice replaced Atlantis earth crystal fusion. Fusion fissioned by science. Chosen.

Atlantis science caused sAtanlit.

Known.

Ice.
Pressure.
Sin holes.
Water.

Tunnels inside earth bored. Ark reasoning.

Water held pressurized inside earth cavities tunnels and in sink holes.

Ice melts.
Stable state newly born removed.
Pressure changes.

Water comes up out of inside earth held pressurized. Sin holes.
Sink holes.

Unnatural flooding.

Water stopped as earth ground flooding. At our feet.
Space void vacuum owner of law holding. Above us as God in heavens.
Snap freeze.

Laws in nature of earth.

Warned.
Ignored.
Told ice is not science. Newly born state.

Newly born state earth gods stable state.

A science human observed teaching.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Well, thank you for sharing your view.

And thank you for sharing yours. You have a wonderful day.

 

[F1fan]

Ooops?

I don't understand.

The Noah myth in Genesis says only 7 people survived the flood. Yet you mentioned how people from many parts of the world report floods as part of their history, and these diverse people and their cultures survived.

That's plausible - but the whole it being a global Flood event is striking.

I mean - since rivers flood often - sometimes very badly - I'm sure the people would come to realize to was just the area around the river - not the entire planet.

That's why religious stories tend to be heavily embellished and exaggerated. It's better theater and more memorable. And if you want your God to have ultimate authority it's going to affect the whole planet, not just your local tribe. Right?

I hear Christians say that their dogma of salvation and damnation extends to Hidus, Muslims, atheists, etc. even though these groups assign no meaning to these beliefs.

God doesn't create decent or indecent people - good or bad people - He just creates people.

Yet there are people who are born sociopaths and with mental disorders who are genetically unable to behave according to social norms and be moral. How is God not acceptable for these folks if it creates them?

We decide where we want to take things.

Some folks need medication to be able to control their thoughts and actions.

 

[InChrist]

Not true. The exaggerated Bible story says that all the Canaanites were destroyed. (The Israelites were originally a conglomeration of Canaanites and other Semitic groups to begin with, before Egypt and Exodus.)

There is no disputing the existence of "Canaanites".

There are plenty of biblical passages that show the Canaanites were never completely destroyed, so of course there is evidence of their existence and DNA remaining...


Read Joshua 13:1-6
This shows areas not yet conquered, including Lebanon, even when Joshua reached old age.


“And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites under tribute, but did not completely drive them out.”
Judges1:28

Read:
Judges 1:27-33

 

[InChrist]

Wrong. Do you want to learn why you are wrong?

You are free to share your views.

 

[gnostic]

Why do you assume that the mountains of Ararat we know today are the same ones described in the Genesis account?

Is it not possible that those mountains were named after the mountain mentioned in the Genesis account?

Do you also assume that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers we know today are the same that the Genesis account claimed was in Eden?

There is no reason to assume that the places we know by these names today are the same as those recorded in the Genesis account.

Said, who?

There are Jewish traditions that the Torah (called Pentateuch among Christians) - books including Genesis, were attributed to Moses, which according to 1 Kings 6:1, the exodus from Egyptian city of Rameses took place 480 years before King Solomon began construction of the Temple, which supposed took place 4th year of his reign or around 967 BCE.

1 In the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord.

So the date for leaving Egypt would be around 1447 BCE.

From Rameses, this was following 40 years of wandering in the wilderness with large population of Israelites, then his death, then followed by the invasion of Canaan, led by Joshua.

So supposedly, Moses wrote Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus during their wandering.

The things, there are no archaeological evidence of their (Israelites) presence in Egypt, and in the places they stayed in the wilderness, and no evidence connecting them with invasion Canaan, and no evidence of either Moses and Joshua living in the 15th century BCE, which was the Late Bronze Age (c 1550 - 1050 BCE) in those regions.

There were no contemporary and independent records by the Egyptians and Canaanites that could verify any of the above events narrated from Genesis to Joshua.

And supposedly Moses recorded the events in Genesis, in which he was never eyewitness of, eg the Creation (Genesis 1 to 3), Flood (6 to 8) and the Tower of Babel (11), events that occurred centuries before his time.

And more importantly, there were no biblical texts of any kind existing in the Bronze Age (c 3100 - 1050 BCE). No literary evidence of any kind, not a single stone tablet, clay tablet, parchment, papyrus, inscriptions on the walls, coffins, etc, containing even a single biblical text in the Bronze Age.

All literary evidence showed that the Old Testament books existing only during the Iron Age, between Josiah’s reign (7th century BCE) to as late 2nd century BCE (eg Book of Job).

The oldest evidence of OT texts existing, were inscription on the 2 silver scrolls, containing passage of the Priestly Blessing from Numbers 6. These scrolls were worn as amulets, were found with other objects in a cave that served as tomb, located in Ketef Hinnom.

These objects were dated between 630 and 590 BCE. So the scrolls were inscribed some times before the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonian army. Most of the OT works were composed during Josiah’s reign to Babylonian Exile to their return home.

So if Moses didn’t write Genesis, and it was composed by someone during the Iron Age, then knowledge about Ararat and Euphrates and Tigris would be contemporary knowledge of geography.

You say, Genesis Ararat isn’t the same as the Ararat, and the Genesis Euphrates and Tigris (plus Eden) weren’t the same as that rivers of later times.

So I would ask you, “How could you possibly know that?”

But I don’t really need your answer, because I don’t you understand the Bible that you read.

For instance, you wrote this -

[QUOTE="Fallen Prophet“]Do you also assume that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers we know today are the same that the Genesis account claimed was in Eden?[/QUOTE]

But according to Genesis 2:14:

14 The name of the third river is Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

Did you miss the Tigris is associated with Assyria?

I am not saying Eden exist in Tigris and Euphrates, because I think Eden is pure myth. So your claim is wrong that Genesis isn’t talking about the same rivers today, because it is.

 

[F1fan]

No, scientists did not disprove a historical event described in the Bible because the Biblical history was actually confirmed by the DNA discovery.

The headline more accurately and truthfully should have been...

”DNA Confirms the Bible”
Do New DNA Discoveries Really Disprove the Bible?

It's funny you bring up DNA. Since geneticists have been mapping genomes some years ago they were able to map out and trace lineages of organisms over time. They were able to actually track how humans moved out of Africa, into Europe, and migrate through Asia and into the Americas.

The evolution and migration of animals species have been traced as well. The most damning thing for Noah Flood literalists is NO genetic bottleneck some 4-5000 years ago. ll there were genetic pairs of most all "kinds" it would be there in the genes and the map. It isn't. All species are supposed to come from this bottleneck of pairs. All at the same time. Yet they don't.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The myth of the global flood is not as ubiquitous among cultures as many claim. There are many cultures that do not have a global flood myth. Where it is found among different cultures, it is often there as the result of culture contamination as in stories passed along trade routes.

So you buy into the whole ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica cross-pollinating culturally theory?

Do you also believe it was done by the aliens that came to mine gold?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So you buy into the whole ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica cross-pollinating culturally theory?

Do you also believe it was done by the aliens that came to mine gold?

No. I don't know anything about that.

What I was referring to was contamination along trade routes through the Middle East and Asia.

Do you think there are aliens that are here to mine gold? I imagine cowboys would have been a problem for them with their six shooters and sech.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The Noah myth in Genesis says only 7 people survived the flood. Yet you mentioned how people from many parts of the world report floods as part of their history, and these diverse people and their cultures survived.

If you read any of my previous posts you'd realize the issues I'd take with this train of thought.

It would be impossible for whoever wrote the Genesis account of the Flood to claim that all of the mountains of the Earth had been covered or that only one Ark of people survived - since they couldn't see the entirety of the Earth at the time.

I believe they recorded what they could see - from their perspective - so it appeared that "all" the "mountains" had been covered and that "all" life had drowned.

It's possible that there were many localized Flood events all over the Earth that targeted civilizations or perhaps there was some cross culturalism that happened after the Flood event - some Phoenicians sailed to Mesoamerica to the story spread tot he Aztecs.

Anything is possible and none of it changes the fact that the Flood event story is not isolated to ancient Hebrews. They didn't just make it up.

That's why religious stories tend to be heavily embellished and exaggerated. It's better theater and more memorable. And if you want your God to have ultimate authority it's going to affect the whole planet, not just your local tribe. Right?

I can neither confirm or deny this - but I'm still inclined to believe that God lives and that He has done many "miraculous" things on Earth for Man.

I hear Christians say that their dogma of salvation and damnation extends to Hidus, Muslims, atheists, etc. even though these groups assign no meaning to these beliefs.

Yes - many people believe in objective truth - and that our personal beliefs do not affect that truth.

So - if they believe that all Mankind fell and needed to be redeemed - then it would extend to all.

It's similar to those who subscribe to the theory of evolution. Our personal beliefs wouldn't affect if we were products of evolution - would it?

Yet there are people who are born sociopaths and with mental disorders who are genetically unable to behave according to social norms and be moral. How is God not acceptable for these folks if it creates them?

The only person God "created" was Adam. Eve came from Adam - and all their children from then on were subject to the whims of imperfect mortality.

Anyone who believes that God is micromanaging every aspect of our lives are just wrong. He set things up and He is ever extending His arms toward us - but we are free.

Some folks need medication to be able to control their thoughts and actions.

That's unfortunate and I wish them the best.

Have they tried "praying it away"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are free to share your views.

Then make a clear statement of what your version of the Flood is and I can refute it if it is at all literal.

By the way, you might need to learn what is and what is not evidence since the example I gave was evidence against the Flood myth. Some Christians dilute the story to the point where it was just a man on a boat. That cannot be refuted, but it makes the story pointless.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

If you read any of my previous posts you'd realize the issues I'd take with this train of thought.

It would be impossible for whoever wrote the Genesis account of the Flood to claim that all of the mountains of the Earth had been covered or that only one Ark of people survived - since they couldn't see the entirety of the Earth at the time.

I believe they recorded what they could see - from their perspective - so it appeared that "all" the "mountains" had been covered and that "all" life had drowned.

It's possible that there were many localized Flood events all over the Earth that targeted civilizations or perhaps there was some cross culturalism that happened after the Flood event - some Phoenicians sailed to Mesoamerica to the story spread tot he Aztecs.

Anything is possible and none of it changes the fact that the Flood event story is not isolated to ancient Hebrews. They didn't just make it up.

I can neither confirm or deny this - but I'm still inclined to believe that God lives and that He has done many "miraculous" things on Earth for Man.

Yes - many people believe in objective truth - and that our personal beliefs do not affect that truth.

So - if they believe that all Mankind fell and needed to be redeemed - then it would extend to all.

It's similar to those who subscribe to the theory of evolution. Our personal beliefs wouldn't affect if we were products of evolution - would it?

The only person God "created" was Adam. Eve came from Adam - and all their children from then on were subject to the whims of imperfect mortality.

Anyone who believes that God is micromanaging every aspect of our lives are just wrong. He set things up and He is ever extending His arms toward us - but we are free.

That's unfortunate and I wish them the best.

Have they tried "praying it away"?

The ancient Hebrews didn't make it up. They took a story that already existed from another culture and adapted it to their culture.

I know of no substantive evidence that the story spread from the Middle East to South America. Is that your alien gold miner hypothesis?

I agree with you on that. I do not believe that God is micromanaging all our lives.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Good grief. I can't believer I am letting myself get sucked into this dead argument again.

There's no place like home. There's no place like home.

These dang slippers don't work. I bet these beans aren't really magic either.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Next up....is the earth a sphere or flat? Then, is the government made up of reptilian aliens in disguise? Finally, are chemtrails controlling the weather?

I am pretty sure there was an orangutan in charge for a little while.