Noah's flood story, did it happen?

[Fallen Prophet]

So you can't support the myth at all. You are not even approaching this using critical thinking. You are blindly accepting the Bible story even though you know it can't be true as told or anywhere near it. I think that other post struck a nerve with you for a very good reason.

I never said I accepted "the Bible story" - so I don't know what you are on about.

My response to this OP was to tell the poster that he/she did a nice job. That's it. And you challenged me.

In this very thread I have expressed my doubts about the story as it is written - or at least translated/interpreted.

And I shared the questions that run through my mind when I think about it.

You see - I'm not a person who rejects an idea simply because I don't have all the answers.

I know enough to believe that Noah was a real person who God spoke to and commanded to build and Ark to save himself, his family and many animals.

Whether it was a Flood of physical water or not - leaders in my Church have expressed that the Flood was of a spiritual nature - I can't judge.

Whether it was a local, regional, continental, global event - I can't confirm.

I can't imagine rejecting every idea simply because I don't know enough about it.

Wouldn't that be self-fulfilling prophecy? Willful ignorance?

 

[Irate State]

A few months ago I opened a thread about the Biblical description of Creation, and whether science disproved the Bible on its description.
It was a very nice debate with some very intellectual members, and I must admit, that there were quite a few new arguments that came to the front, which I never seen before. Be as it may, my conclusion on the discussion is that there are no evidence in science to disprove the creation narrative, but just as scientists makes assumptions about how eveerything came into being, it is very easy for the Biblical apologist to be ready with other assumptions which is equally sound and not easily debunked.
Therefore, I have yet to see any evidence in science in contradiction with the Bible.

However, there were quite a few members that continiously arrived at another argument, to validate their viewpoint that the Bible is a compilation of mythology, and not scientific at all.
That argument is...the Noah's flood story...

Again, if one were to read the story of this global flood, and dont want to take many, or as much factors, into consideration to allow the Biblical narative to explain itself, then with a superficial bias are able to discard the story as far fetched made up.

What do I mean with superficial?
Well, a "Global flood"?
One filling the earth to about 20 meters above the highest mountains?
"Are you serious?", the question normally goes, " 20 meters above Everest?
Everest is what, 8850 meters high! If the earth was covered with 8850 meters of water...
"Where did the Water come from, and where did it go?"

Questions such as the one above is not asked by simply normal joes such as you and I, nope, this is asked by highly educated scientists.
And guess what?
This simple question is actually a statement, by mostly bias thought, not as a question, but as a statement:
And that statement is: "Are you serious? you dont understand a simple logical statement which your Bible speaks about. Only a very stupid uneducated person will believe that there was billions of cubic miles of water covering Everest and the rest of the Earth, without even considering that this water had to come from somewhare, and we dont see that volume everywhere at all today! So where is that water!

If I remember, Carl Sagan asked the exact same question.

From my point of view, I was amased that such highly educated scientists would be so superficial on their observation. let me demonstrate how this strawpuppet they created simply burns out once we take everything into consideration.

When the Earth took shape in the Nebular cloud, and collected ice, gas and other materials, it grew bigger and eventually reached the aproximate size it has today. However, there are many things to consider.
1. The Earth would be much smoother, for there was no continental plate movement in its infancy, therefore when this icy collection warmed up on the surface of the Earth, water appeared, and flowed to areas which was lower than the rest.
2. The crust of this Earth would also thaw out, and would start to "shrink" into itself. As it shrinked, it built up preasure beneath the crust, which had a lot of water in its enterior. (Think of the Russian Cola deep which discovered more water in the rocks that scientists ever thought possible, and the oceans of water collected beneath China in woodite that contains more water than the oceans of the Earth put together.)
3. There must also have been huge quantities of water and ice in and beyond the Earth's atmosphere, which scientists today find very viable after their discoveries of cie rings on moons and planets in our solar system we never previously knew about.

Now that we have the foundations correct on what the Earth looked like after it took shape to before the flood, lets see what happened.

The Earth was a wet and soggy entity. The inland continent was hugh marsh lands and swamps. Evidence that dinosaurs could never have walked on land with their huge boddies, is evidence that they were either reptillian or amphibian. Therefore, taken the above into account, the continents did not appear as it does today.

If the Bible spaeks about high mountains, it speaks of mountains that appeared after the flood, which was perhaps less than 500 meters above sea level before the event.

Good, then for some or other reason, the Earth's crust collapsed into itself, creating a huge crack curcumventing the Earth twice, pushing this water out from below 50 miles of surface, gushing this water out at supersonic speeds, into and way passed the atmosphere.

We have to consider the following factor.
It the Earth's crust fell in upon itself, DUE TO THE INCREASE OF GRAVITY, then the icy ring around the Earth was drawn in from space and rained down on the Earth in water and Ice. Heat generated in this event would turn into snow at the poles, and created one huge Ice age.
As the earth changed from the shape of a nice smooth passionfruit, into a contracted shape of a dried pasionfruit, mountains formed with the earth crust contracting.

This was when mountains took shape.
Another factor to keep in mind is the description of the atmosphere from the Bible.
The Bible says that before the flood, it did not rain but a mist rose from the Earth and wet the land. This will be understandable if we take into consideration that the Earth shaped from solids liquid and Gas as per the understanding from the Nebular theory.

However, after the flood A RAINBOW APPEARED FOR THE FIRST TIME!
which means in scientific terms that for the first time the atmosphere was cleared from all its water, and refraction of light was observed.

Now, this had its consequences too. A clear atmosphere will now allow ultraviolet and cosmic radiation, which will on turn, reduce the lifespan of humans. Exactly what we saw happened.

Anyhow, I hope this will be a nice discussion going forward, and I urge anyone who would like to join in, to please take one step at a time.
Nothing is so frustrating as someone coppying and pasting a lot of claims, not expecting any answer.

Greetings

 

[Fallen Prophet]

And yet you are unable to reveal what you do know?

I revealed that a couple of posts ago. I said,

"Yet I have reasons to believe in the deliberate preservation of Noah and his family and the Ark narrative."

 

[Subduction Zone]

Older and more entertaining. Based upon an article in Conservapedia. An article that it took them years to take down:

 

[McBell]

I revealed that a couple of posts ago. I said,

"Yet I have reasons to believe in the deliberate preservation of Noah and his family and the Ark narrative."

So that is the sum total of what you "know" about the flood myth?

You really need to work on your poker face.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No flood.

Balaam's *** (donkey, since what I wrote will turn into stars and fly off to heaven) didn't say a freakin' word to anybody, except "hee haw."

The sun did not stop in the sky.

Nobody at the Tower of Babel forgot what language they spoke.

Corpses didn't rise out of their graves and wander around Jerusalem.

Nobody arose from the dead.

Water stayed water throughout the entire biblical period -- if there was wine, it was because somebody brought it (did they even have BYOB back then?)

 

[Subduction Zone]

No flood.

Balaam's *** (donkey, since what I wrote will turn into stars and fly off to heaven) didn't say a freakin' word to anybody, except "hee haw."

The sun did not stop in the sky.

Nobody at the Tower of Babel forgot what language they spoke.

Corpses didn't rise out of their graves and wander around Jerusalem.

Nobody arose from the dead.

Water stayed water throughout the entire biblical period -- if there was wine, it was because somebody brought it (did they even have BYOB back then?)

Bring Your Own Blonde? Since this was the Middle East I am going to go with a "No".

 

[Neuropteron]

(Noahs flood, did it happen?
Anyhow, I hope this will be a nice discussion going forward, and I urge anyone who would like to join in, to please take one step at a time.

Hi,
The historian Josephus told of how people would climb mount Ararat to view remains of the ark of Noah and that many would rip piece of it for a souvenir.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hi,
The historian Josephus told of how people would climb mount Ararat to view remains of the ark of Noah and that many would rip piece of it for a souvenir.

And how did he know this? There are countless stories of that sort. And even normally reliable people can be fooled at times if the story agrees with their religion.

You should be asking how we know that it never happened.

 

[Neuropteron]

And how did he know this? There are countless stories of that sort. And even normally reliable people can be fooled at times if the story agrees with their religion.

You should be asking how we know that it never happened.

Hi,
"reliable people can be fooled at times if the story agrees with their religion."
Josephus was not a christian.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hi,
"reliable people can be fooled at times if the story agrees with their religion."
Josephus was not a christian.

LOL!! He was a Jew. Guess where the Noah's Ark myth came from.

 

[Neuropteron]

LOL!! He was a Jew. Guess where the Noah's Ark myth came from.

(Pr 19:29)

Your quite right.

I'm not good at guessing.

 

[F1fan]

Many cultures all over the world - supposedly not linked to Israel - also claim that there was a Flood event of some kind in their ancient past.

The Aztecs - for example - have a few global Flood event accounts - where either all human life perished or there were a few survivors.

Yeah, kinda funny how they all survived to tell about it. Ooops.

I just don't believe that this story is isolated only to the ancient Hebrews.

That's OK because people everywhere tend to settle near rivers, and rivers often flood, and sometimes it's bad. So yeah, lots of stories about floods.

Also - I don't understand how God wanting to destroy a wicked generation of people is "ridiculous".

Probably because it illustrates how lousy God is at creating decent people.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So that is the sum total of what you "know" about the flood myth?

You really need to work on your poker face.

I don't understand why people are being so hostile here.

I never claimed to know everything.

Noah and the Ark just aren't very important to me personally.

I've thought about it - sure - but any answer doesn't really change much for me.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Yeah, kinda funny how they all survived to tell about it. Ooops.

Ooops?

I don't understand.

That's OK because people everywhere tend to settle near rivers, and rivers often flood, and sometimes it's bad. So yeah, lots of stories about floods.

That's plausible - but the whole it being a global Flood event is striking.

I mean - since rivers flood often - sometimes very badly - I'm sure the people would come to realize to was just the area around the river - not the entire planet.

Probably because it illustrates how lousy God is at creating decent people.

God doesn't create decent or indecent people - good or bad people - He just creates people.

We decide where we want to take things.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

OK... here is what I wrote when this topic came up before (no need to expend energy coming up with new responses to the same-old):

Bison are clean, meaning, according to some, that 7 pair of them were to be on the ark. According to the Wiki, "...European bison can weigh from 800 to 1,000 kg (1,800 to 2,200 lb)." Lets go with an average - 2000 lb.

Just the 7 pair of the bison kind represent about 28,000 lbs of bison. The Wiki tells us that "European bison feed predominantly on grasses... an adult male can consume 32 kg of food in a day." Creation dot com claims they were on the ark for 364 days.(not the 375 JW does - and yes, I am aware of the wiggles that the YECs use - they could have been babies, blah blah blah - not buying it - none of that is stated in Genesis).

So, just for the bison, 600 year old Noah (I read somewhere that those ages are actually months, which would be more reality-based, putting Noah at 50 when he built the ark) had to load some 3.5 million Kg of food - 8 million pounds of food. I found various estimates for water consumption - let's say 10 gallons/day. About 50,000 gallons. Now, one will be tempted to claim that it was raining for 40 days, so they didn't need to store water!

Ok, but what about the 324 days they were on the ark and it wasn't raining?

Bottom line, just for the Bison-Kind, we need space for them (~10 feet long, ~4 feet wide) 40 sqft/bison - 560 square feet for the Bison Kind (that is if they were packed like sardines; also, ~6 feet tall, so ~3300 cubic feet).

Now back to that food and water - a gallon of water takes up about 0.13 cubic feet, so 6500 cubic feet of water.
For the food, for simplicity I will use a bale of hay as a reference - I found on the webs that "The dimension of a small bale held together by three strings is approximately 16” high x 22” wide x 44” long and usually weighs 100lbs. " - so, 8 million/100 = 80,000 bales, at 16x22x44 hay bale size = ~10 cubic feet = 800,000 cubic feet.

So, 800,000+6500+560 = 807,060 cubic feet JUST FOR BISON-KIND.

According to biblestudy.org, the total volume of the ark was 1.5 million cubic feet - using an 18 inch cubit. AIG prefers a 20.4 inch cubit - I will just pad the volume up to, say, 1.8 million cubic feet.

But that is just open space - the ark had 3 floors, and you would need internal bracing, ramps/stairways, enclosures, etc. - all of which take up space. None of the ark size estimates I came across even mentioned any of that - but let's say all that accounts for, say 70,000 cubic feet - so we are back down to about 1.73 million cubic feet.

So, 1.73 million cubic feet total usable ark volume - 807,000 cubic feet for animal, food, water storage for the bison kind = 923,000 cubic feet left...


That is, almost HALF of the entire internal volume of the ark is needed JUST to fit in the bison and its food and water!

Then we have cattle - 14 of them.

Deer - 14 of them.

Elk, moose, reindeer - 14 each of them.

And the elephant Kind? Just 1 of them (but to account for all of the Elephantids, gomphotheres and such - that will require a good amount of post-flood macroevolution!), but they are bigger and eat more than any of the above.

And dinosaurs - 1 seismosaurus kind and the ark is keel-up..


Bottom line - it really does not matter one hoot if the ark could have floated on paper, or even in real life - it could not possibly have held all it needed to by virtue of Jehovah's command to bring living creatures “of every sort of flesh, two of each" or 7 pairs of clean animals, no matter what the smaller ones were.

Even if I omit the water storage and arbitrarily half the amount of space needed for the Bison-Kind, this is DEVASTATING for a reality-based ark tale.

The creationist is forced to remove themselves from the arena of mere plausibility of the ark floating, and rely 100% on God magic to make their tale possible, and thus, creationism is NOT reality-based, or scientific.

Oh - and a question - why are these critters "abominations"? Didn't Jehovah create them? Why did Jehovah create abominations?
Deuteronomy 14:1-29
“You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...

ADDENDUM: I just realized I made a math error - a bale of hay is closer to 8.6 cubic feet, not 10 - I don't feel like re-doing all the calculations, but I also don't think it really matters - even if the result is that the Bison-Kind, their food and water only take up 1/4 of the ark, it STILL shows, when one considers all of the other large mammal-Kinds that need to be accommodated, that the ark story CANNOT actually do what it is described as having done, whether it 'floats' or not.​

What about termites (Order Blattodea), ants, bees (Order Hymenoptera) and any other eusocial insects? What counts as two. Two termites or two colonies? Or was it just one colony each? Nothing is mentioned about them in the Bible. Any thoughts on how you can have the many species of termite and carpenter ant on a vessel made of wood? Not to mention, the many, many other species of wood boring insects.

Of course, those insects may be of benefit in opening up additional needed space as time went on. Of course, radical, catastrophic marine vehicle remodeling may not be the ideal situation when you have no available anchorage.

Then let's consider some of the other fun and interesting insect species that we all know and love. Nearly 1,100 species of paper wasps and that does not include yellow jackets and hornets. All that would require very special conditions, food and needs. Not to mention that many have a disturbing habit of becoming agitated and stingy. Especially, that Asian giant hornet.

Of course, the Hymenoptera includes the honeybee and a significant number of other bees. Many of which are ground nesting. I imagine a fair quantity of various soils would have to be included in the cargo of the ark.

2,000 species of termites and 150,000 species of Hymenoptera on the ark with numerous other animals seems plausible. I think they could find room if they left out all the other species of insects and just hoped some of those made it on their own.

That story just sounds more and more reasonable the more I think about it.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ooops?

I don't understand.

That's plausible - but the whole it being a global Flood event is striking.

I mean - since rivers flood often - sometimes very badly - I'm sure the people would come to realize to was just the area around the river - not the entire planet.

God doesn't create decent or indecent people - good or bad people - He just creates people.

We decide where we want to take things.

The myth of the global flood is not as ubiquitous among cultures as many claim. There are many cultures that do not have a global flood myth. Where it is found among different cultures, it is often there as the result of culture contamination as in stories passed along trade routes.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Intelligent Falling is clearly better than Unintelligent Falling. Think how dangerous it would be going outside if things could fall without intelligence. You could be walking and SPLAT!! You just got hit by a giraffe.

Checkmate atheists!

I think that intelligent falling is refuted by irreducible falling. If you remove one aspect of the fall, the whole thing falls apart.

 

[InChrist]

Because none of those groups claimed to have completely killed other groups that their descendants ended up intermarrying centuries later in their convoluted account of sacred history.

Deuteronomy 1445-1405 BC

However, you must not let any living thing survive among the cities of these people the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance. You must completely destroy them – the Hethite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite …. (Deut. 20:16-18)

Joshua 1405-1385 BC

“Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded…. He left nothing undone of all that the Lord had commanded Moses.” (Joshua. 10:40, 11:15)

Judges 1043 BC

5Thus the Israelites continued to live among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. 6And they took the daughters of these people in marriage, gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods. hence, "so-called Israelites"

Every time the scripture books were edited the authors of the new material left traces of the old in the scripture.

Bible says Canaanites were wiped out by Israelites but scientists just found their descendants living in Lebanon

Scientists just disproved a historical event described in the Bible

No, scientists did not disprove a historical event described in the Bible because the Biblical history was actually confirmed by the DNA discovery.

The headline more accurately and truthfully should have been...

”DNA Confirms the Bible”

Do New DNA Discoveries Really Disprove the Bible?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No, scientists did not disprove a historical event described in the Bible because the Biblical history was actually confirmed by the DNA discovery.

The headline more accurately and truthfully should have been...

”DNA Confirms the Bible”

Do New DNA Discoveries Really Disprove the Bible?

It has long been shown that the flood described in the Bible could not have taken place as described.