Are you Certain There is no God?

[Nakosis]

It sounds as if atheism makes sense to you in the same way theism makes sense to me. It works for you as theism works for me. Being convinced of the truth of something doesn’t make it right for either of us. Whether or not someone can convince us to change our minds isn’t really a proof of anything.

Yes, as I said somewhere, I don't know if belief or non-belief is an actual choice. Maybe it is just where we happen to find ourselves.

 

[Nakosis]

There is less reason to see Harry Potter as a real person because he is a fictional character for sure.

3D Animations - Replication: Mechanism of Replication (Advanced) - CSHL DNA Learning Center
I recon there is a designer.
Have you ever asked God to show you that He is real? Maybe you should.

Yes, God did.

The Bible tells us that we cannot please God without faith. That would make sense since our motivation for what we do would probably be to please ourselves. But of course in the end it is God who judges us and decides about our lack of faith being a determining factor in how we are judged.
Certainly faith in Jesus is, in the Bible, a determining factor in how God sees and judges us.

Faith, IMO oughtn't be a permanent state of being. Faith gets you through the door. No one should expect you to carry faith as a burden.

 

[Nakosis]

I think there is a compelling reason that the human race is gradually coming to realize.

By ditching a virtuous lifestyle taught by the Prophets, we have introduced many physical, mental and social illness that are breaking up our families, destroying our societies and corrupting our politics leading to major catastrophes such as the two world wars.

Society is rife with drug and alcohol addiction, suicide, crime and domestic violence. This is the result of us choosing to go our own way. So destructive are our choices, that I believe in time, we will learn from this that only God’s paths of a virtuous life can possibly rescue our civilisation from the quagmire it has fallen into.


There are no shortcuts. We need to change or be forced, for our own survival to change. We may have to be pushed to the precipice to realise just what a price we’ve had to pay for ignoring the wise counsels of the Prophets of God.

So we don’t need God? What is God? Nobody knows. All we know of Him is He sends Representatives from His World to ours to offer us guidance. We are, of course, free to reject their advice. Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah were sent to assist us. These Great Teachers what did they teach us collectively that we should ditch?

1. Universal love for all humanity
2. To have a pure heart
3. Physical cleanliness
4. Avoidance of alcohol and habit forming drugs
5. Moderation
6. Detachment
7. Selflessness
8. Brotherhood
9. Gratitude
10. Friendship
11. Loving kindness
12. Compassion
13. Justice
14. Mercy
15. Courtesy
16. Abstinence from conflict and contention
17. Freedom from prejudice
18. To cause no harm
19. Non violence
20. Not to backbite and gossip
21. To not steal
22. Not to kill
23. To respect the rights of others
24. Trustworthiness
25. Truthfulness
26. Integrity
27. Fairness
28. Courage
29. Wisdom
30. Inner peace

Buddhism, without God taught me these things. God gives faith but experience teaches the benefit of these things.

These and so many more teachings came from God through His Prophets in the form of laws, counsels and exhortations and if you examine present day society , you will find that the lack of adherence to these very qualities and teachings are what is the cause of the breakdown of society.

Just because we can’t know God directly, doesn’t mean we should ignore His Representatives, as we need these virtues for individuals, the community and our institutions to function properly.

We can come to understand the benefit of these ideas, with or without God. So your are right, it is not necessary to know God to learn from others.

 

[Heyo]

This was my conclusion as well. It just took me a while.

For me that were just about 50 years. Guess I'm not that fast.

 

[Love God]

Perhaps the most famous example is the so called prophecy of a virgin birth. That involved a verse that did not even claim that it would be a virgin and was not about Jesus. Isaiah 7 14 was not about a virgin, but a young woman. In context it was about an event that was happening then and not in the future. The error arose from the fact that the Greek Septuagint had a mistranslation of "almah".

Yes. I have heard the ‘argument’ about virgin/young girl mistranslation...

So who told you or taught you that ‘fact’?
How do you ‘prove’ that their teaching of mistranslation is the absolute truth? How did they (whoever you are studying and believing) prove their belief was the correct teaching beyond a doubt? What facts did they present that convinced you?

If one does away with the virgin birth, the Lord Jesus Christ can be done away with as Emmanuel.

If you can so easily do away with the prophecies, how about this layout of the bible from Heinrich Bullinger:

1. First creation (Gen1:1)
2. Satan’s first appearance (Gen 1:2)
3. Restoration and blessing (Gen 1:3-Gen 2)
4. Satan enters (Gen 3)
5. God deals w/mankind in general (Gen 4-11)
6. God deals w/the Jews in particular (Gen 12-Malachi)
7. The First Advent (Matt-John)
8. The transition period of the book of Acts
9. The Church Age (Romans-Philemon) [My addition: Jesus’s church not to be confused w/Rome!]
10. The Second Advent (Rev 19)
11. The restoration of the Jews
12. The Millennial calling out of the Gentiles
13. The binding of Satan (Rev 20:1-3)
14. The Millennial restoration of the earth (Rev 20:4-6)
15. Satan’s final appearance (Rev 20:7-9)
16. The new creation (Rev 21-22)

In Bullinger’s layout, points 8 and 9 are the center events of the bible plan.
There are 7 points before 8. And 7 points following 9.
Points 1-8 are counterpart matches to 9-16.
Points 10-16 are like reading points 1-7 backwards.
The Second Advent, point 10, matches the First Advent, point 7. The restoration of the Jews, point 11, matches God’s dealings with the Jews in the OT, point 6, and so on.

I am sure that you will find something ‘wrong’ with this, as well.

Atheists are some of the most closed-minded people I encounter in my journey.
The very idea of [an] absolute God makes them angry.

I usually avoid the ‘argument’ with atheists, due to the fact that their mind is made up beforehand. And even if I possessed the Lord on video, atheists would claim it somehow ‘fake’.

No amount of evidence would convince a mind that is already ‘made up’.

So, unless you are willing to dialogue, and present your evidences, our continued conversation will be pointless.

And to simply to call me ignorant, hill-billy, naive, stupid, idiot, uneducated, unsophisticated, brain-washed, low IQ, retarded, hateful, judgmental, brain dead, or any of the rest, is nothing new to me.
I have heard it all, been accused of it all, and most of it from my ‘loving’ family!

So if you think you are up to the challenge of discourse, let’s go. If you just want to join my family in their belittling techniques, then I wish you nothing in this life but all prosperity, peace, and

Joy


“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Quintessence]

I do not need to deify (or personalize, or ascribe a "soul" to) natural phenoma. Deciding that the wind "wants" to blow is meaningless to me, because I understand what causes wind to blow (differences in air pressure). And I understand what causes differences in air pressure, too. I don't need to make up stories that anthopomorphize everything in sight. I need to understand them for what they are, what they do, how they might be used, or how they should be regarded -- dangerous, beneficial, etc.

When I was a child, when every other little brat kid was annoying their parents with incessant "why" questions (implying that everything has a reason or intention behind it), this little brat kid annoyed people by asking "how does it work?" I simply do not suspect intentional agency behind every natural event. Volcanoes don't blow because somebody's angry, and viruses aren't "sent" to punish. To me, these things are all ordered of themselves, no agency required.

I'm noticing lots of assumptions here. Let's tally them and ask some follow-up questions:

• Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that these phenomena "want" things (spoiler -this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?
• Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that there is "reason" or "intention" behind things (spoiler - this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?
• Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that natural disasters and the like means something is "angry" or "punishing" humans (spoiler - this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?

Again, you're still taking things way too literally and also with the expected influence/baggage of monotheist/Abrahamic theology.

 

[Nakosis]

I can check it out and let you know. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him. Plus I always wanted to sail a boat. The kind with rigging and sails. Sail it around the world. Sail it through a storm. It should be all the more fun knowing I won't drown myself.

Thanks, I'll look forward to it.

I'm sure all Atheists are not the same. But some that I read here speak about being angry with God. They'll say things like "if there is a God, I've got a bone to pick with Him". It's almost like they are acknowledging that there is a God, but He's not the God that they want Him to be.

I was never angry with God. Although I did get a little miffed by people telling me all about God like they personally knew all about God. Eventually got over that as well.

If i was an Atheist, I wouldn't even be on this forum debating it. I would be out making money, or spending it, or eating something, or playing with my stuff. I wouldn't give a care in what anyone else believed.

One can do both. I'm curious why I believe things. Not just God, but God is a big one. Why humans have faith, why we invest belief into things. Maybe it's silly, maybe something I'll never understand, but I suppose I am driven to know myself. Hearing the motivation of others seems to provide insight into my own condition.

Nope. And there's going to be billions of brothers and sisters and holy angels in God's Kingdom to get to know.

And I should also have another chance at my Mom's stuffed green peppers.



I've been pretty lucky too.

But to be in the Kingdom is different.

Think about it man, to be a true member of the Family of God.

"For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.​

I hope it all works out for you.

What do you think happens to those that didn't believe?

 

[Nakosis]

I don't believe you go to heaven but it would be really nice to live longer than about 80yrs, what about those who have a life full of suffering or kids that die before they reach their 5th birthday it would be great if they could have better or more. Not everyone is lucky enough to have been given a life they are satisfied with.

Sure but what about them that didn't believe? What is their fate?

 

[Trailblazer]

Believing in the axioms of science is what gives me safety. Knowing that the universe is orderly and no magic can pull the ground from under me is better (for me) than being in constant uncertainty what may have angered a magical sky fairy and what it is going to do to me.

As a Baha’i, I do not have to choose between science and religion, and in fact I have to believe in the axioms of science. That gives me safety to know science has our backs, as in the pandemic. Otherwise what would we do? God is not going to come barreling down from wherever He resides develop vaccines, as God has entrusted humans to do that and scientists have stepped up to the plate….

Nevertheless, I think religion has a part to play because science cannot change the hearts of man. Last night I was watching CNN about what is going on in Africa with new viruses that are being introduced and spread by the selfish acts of man who are interfering with the ecosystem just for profit… That is what religion is for, morality, science does not address morality…

Baha’is believe that science and religion are like two wings if a bird, both are vitally necessary for the bird which is humanity to survive and thrive.

As for safety, as a believer, I believe God is the cause of all existence and that by which all existence is ruled and maintained, so I believe God has our backs, although He allows us to take care of our own business. I know that the universe is orderly and no magic can pull the ground from under me, because I do not believe God is a magic sky fairy who will get angry and pull the rug out for under me. Considering the things I say to God when I am angry, that rug should have been gone a long, long time ago, but instead I got a new rug every time - go figure!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes. I have heard the ‘argument’ about virgin/young girl mistranslation...

So who told you or taught you that ‘fact’?
How do you ‘prove’ that their teaching of mistranslation is the absolute truth? How did they (whoever you are studying and believing) prove their belief was the correct teaching beyond a doubt? What facts did they present that convinced you?

If one does away with the virgin birth, the Lord Jesus Christ can be done away with as Emmanuel.

If you can so easily do away with the prophecies, how about this layout of the bible from Heinrich Bullinger:

1. First creation (Gen1:1)
2. Satan’s first appearance (Gen 1:2)
3. Restoration and blessing (Gen 1:3-Gen 2)
4. Satan enters (Gen 3)
5. God deals w/mankind in general (Gen 4-11)
6. God deals w/the Jews in particular (Gen 12-Malachi)
7. The First Advent (Matt-John)
8. The transition period of the book of Acts
9. The Church Age (Romans-Philemon) [My addition: Jesus’s church not to be confused w/Rome!]
10. The Second Advent (Rev 19)
11. The restoration of the Jews
12. The Millennial calling out of the Gentiles
13. The binding of Satan (Rev 20:1-3)
14. The Millennial restoration of the earth (Rev 20:4-6)
15. Satan’s final appearance (Rev 20:7-9)
16. The new creation (Rev 21-22)

In Bullinger’s layout, points 8 and 9 are the center events of the bible plan.
There are 7 points before 8. And 7 points following 9.
Points 1-8 are counterpart matches to 9-16.
Points 10-16 are like reading points 1-7 backwards.
The Second Advent, point 10, matches the First Advent, point 7. The restoration of the Jews, point 11, matches God’s dealings with the Jews in the OT, point 6, and so on.

I am sure that you will find something ‘wrong’ with this, as well.

Atheists are some of the most closed-minded people I encounter in my journey.
The very idea of [an] absolute God makes them angry.

I usually avoid the ‘argument’ with atheists, due to the fact that their mind is made up beforehand. And even if I possessed the Lord on video, atheists would claim it somehow ‘fake’.

No amount of evidence would convince a mind that is already ‘made up’.

So, unless you are willing to dialogue, and present your evidences, our continued conversation will be pointless.

And to simply to call me ignorant, hill-billy, naive, stupid, idiot, uneducated, unsophisticated, brain-washed, low IQ, retarded, hateful, judgmental, brain dead, or any of the rest, is nothing new to me.
I have heard it all, been accused of it all, and most of it from my ‘loving’ family!

So if you think you are up to the challenge of discourse, let’s go. If you just want to join my family in their belittling techniques, then I wish you nothing in this life but all prosperity, peace, and

Joy


“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The post did no merit a wall of text. That is usually a sign that someone cannot deal with the argument given. How do we know that it is an error? Copies of both the Septuagint and the Hebrew text still exist. The words are there. The mistranslation is there. And how do we know it is not a prophecy? Again, read it in context. Aside from that one error the rest of the Septuagint is not that far off. Even in English if one reads the verses that it is not a prophesy about Jesus is obvious.

And why the huge non sequitur? Genesis is mythical. There is no real doubt about that. Revelation is such a strange book that it was almost not included in the Bible. That does not leave much else.

Christians should try to remember that the reason that Jews do not accept Jesus is that he did not fulfill the actual Messianic prophecies. That is why they took endless "prophecies" out of context and tried to pass off out of context verses as prophecies.

 

[Nakosis]

I am not where you were because I believe in God for different reasons than you did. I never say prayers asking for anything, so God has not answered my prayers, and nothing I have experienced in life supports the existence of God. In fact, I often wonder how a loving God could exist, given my own experiences of suffering as well as suffering of other people and animals. So these are the reasons not to believe in God. Moreover, it is difficult for me to attribute anything good that happens in my life to God, although that is beginning to change as I have more faith in a good God who is guiding and assisting me.

My certainty about the existence of God is derived from the religions of God that have been revealed by the Messengers of God, particularly Baha'u'llah. I have questioned that certainty over and over again for the last eight years, but the more I learn about the religions and Messengers of God, the more I am certain that God exists. Moreover, the more I am challenged by nonbelievers the more I end up believing.

For myself, I didn't know these messengers. I don't know their character. Even with people I do know, I've been fooled. I'm not saying these folks are liars but I've talked to God. Taught by God. Given what I thought was important messages by God to share with the world. I can understand how convincing one might find it to be selected by God as a messenger. There are also many people today claiming to be messengers from God and they have their followings. You accept your messengers others accept different messengers. Each certain they have selected/followed the right messenger.

You trust your ability to pick the correct messenger. I do not trust myself to do this, so I don't.

 

[Love God]

I'm not offended if someone tells me God exists either. The majority of my life, I believe in a God. Why should I be offended by something I myself was "guilty" of?




I don't hate the absolute truth. I've just come to accept if an absolute truth exist, I never know what it is.

Why would [a] God, if he exists, ‘create’ humans just to leave us ‘guessing’?

Wouldn’t that be a little maleficent of him?

Why would anyone serve a God who has some sort of moral expectation and leave us hanging? Or only give his ‘truths’ to a select/chosen few?

If you believe in [a] God, how do you know him?

Just curious...

Joy

“God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.
Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭67:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am certain there is no good reason for me to believe in God.

Why?
I see no reason to believe anything in the Bible.
I see no reason to believe that God communicates to us either individually or through messengers.

One can of course choose to believe otherwise but there is no argument or evidence which compels one to make either choice. Right?

The choice to believe in these things, like the Bible is purely arbitrary.
Why I don't believe is the same reason I don't believe Harry Potter is anything more than a fictional character, I've no reason to.

Do you feel compelled to believe in God?
Do you feel belief is necessary?

I don't see it but perhaps you can explain it.

Setting aside things like the inherent degree of uncertainty in any inductive knowledge, and that I can't demonstrate with certainty that I'm not a brain in a vat... yes: I am certain that no gods exist.

 

[Love God]

The post did no merit a wall of text. That is usually a sign that someone cannot deal with the argument given. How do we know that it is an error? Copies of both the Septuagint and the Hebrew text still exist. The words are there. The mistranslation is there. And how do we know it is not a prophecy? Again, read it in context. Aside from that one error the rest of the Septuagint is not that far off. Even in English if one reads the verses that it is not a prophesy about Jesus is obvious.

And why the huge non sequitur? Genesis is mythical. There is no real doubt about that. Revelation is such a strange book that it was almost not included in the Bible. That does not leave much else.

Christians should try to remember that the reason that Jews do not accept Jesus is that he did not fulfill the actual Messianic prophecies. That is why they took endless "prophecies" out of context and tried to pass off out of context verses as prophecies.

The post did no merit a wall of text. That is usually a sign that someone cannot deal with the argument given. How do we know that it is an error? Copies of both the Septuagint and the Hebrew text still exist. The words are there. The mistranslation is there. And how do we know it is not a prophecy? Again, read it in context. Aside from that one error the rest of the Septuagint is not that far off. Even in English if one reads the verses that it is not a prophesy about Jesus is obvious.

And why the huge non sequitur? Genesis is mythical. There is no real doubt about that. Revelation is such a strange book that it was almost not included in the Bible. That does not leave much else.

Christians should try to remember that the reason that Jews do not accept Jesus is that he did not fulfill the actual Messianic prophecies. That is why they took endless "prophecies" out of context and tried to pass off out of context verses as prophecies.

I apologize for the ‘length’.
Was not aware that replies needed to be brief...
My bad.

I understand that Genesis is still considered part of the Jewish scripture... unless you have some new ‘truth’ that no one else knows about...

There are over 500 prophesies in the bible. Which ones ‘bother’ you?

Joy

PS. Revelation is the easiest book to understand.

 

[osgart]

The claim was that we cannot predict the development of the hand given prior conditions. I reply that you can. At least in principle, and with a good knowledge of genetics.

Otherwise, it is a triviality that nobody can predict the development of the hand when there are no conscious predictors.

Ciao

- viole

You would have to go back to the laws of physics on forward to the genome. The genome is already in place and is an intelligent program. You are just turning on and off bits that sequence with the specific function without understanding how it was formed.

And then you would have to determine that the laws of physics have no programming.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are over 500 prophesies in the bible. Which ones ‘bother’ you?

Another question is: Which of those prophecies do you believer were fulfilled by Jesus? Can you demonstrate how, when, and where they were fulfilled?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I apologize for the ‘length’.
Was not aware that replies needed to be brief...
My bad.

I understand that Genesis is still considered part of the Jewish scripture... unless you have some new ‘truth’ that no one else knows about...

There are over 500 prophesies in the bible. Which ones ‘bother’ you?

Joy

PS. Revelation is the easiest book to understand.

They need not be brief, but they should not have huge non sequiturs.

And yes, Revelation is an easy book to understand once one sees it as delusional ramblings.

The fact that Genesis is still part of the Jewish scriptures is another non sequitur that only rates a So what? We still know it is myth.

And no prophecies bother me, though I do find some of them to be humorous.

 

[Heyo]

As a Baha’i, I do not have to choose between science and religion, and in fact I have to believe in the axioms of science.

I've heard that stated several times but also refuted (sometimes by the same people) so I'm not sure what I shall think of the Baha'i claim of accepting science.
The UU also claim to accept science but it is more a "we tolerate science" than an acceptance.

 

[Nakosis]

Why would [a] God, if he exists, ‘create’ humans just to leave us ‘guessing’?

Wouldn’t that be a little maleficent of him?

Why would anyone serve a God who has some sort of moral expectation and leave us hanging? Or only give his ‘truths’ to a select/chosen few?

I'm not claiming to know anything about God, certainly not why God goes about doing what God does.

If you believe in [a] God, how do you know him?

Through many different forms.For example I saw a burning bush, like described in the Bible. Not dreaming or a vision but in broad daylight. I had already gotten used to these things so I wasn't alarmed. I was just like hmm... Look at that, that's pretty neat.

From a person claiming to be an incarnation of God, they taught me to see an inner light. It's not like I imagine it, it is just there when I look. Even now. A pure bright white light. Seemed to fit with what I was told about God so didn't really think to question it. I had conversations with the Holy Spirit who would teach me stuff about how the universe started. Why God is hidden from us. Stuff I couldn't possibly know but all seemed to make sense once it was revealed.

I've come across several who have also had these kinds of experiences and many more who haven't.

 

[osgart]

Yep. And nobody was able to explain it to me - because it makes no sense.

It's utterly simple. The hand is a tool devised by nature. Simple purpose.