Christianity vs Baha'i

[CG Didymus]

Still amazes me that Christians believe that Jesus is going to be the End Times Messiah, because given Jesus did not have a human father, it cannot be said He was from the line of David.

Yes, and there are more problems... I've talked about the "fulfilled" prophecies in the beginning of the gospel of Matthew. Those seem very contrived to me too. I don't see why any Jew would have read them and been convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. I'll check in tomorrow or Sunday and thrown in a comment or two. See you.

 

[Trailblazer]

But they are only verses taken out of context. Bill Sears is only a man and not a prophet or a manifestation. Jews, Christians and Muslims all have their prophecy verses. And each says something different about what those verses mean.

Please explain why you think they are taken out of context. What exactly does that mean?

You are correct that Jews, Christians and Muslims all say something different about what prophecy verses mean, and they do not even agree with others in the same religion. The hundred-dollar difference and the obvious advantage Baha'is have over any of the other religions is that we have an actual man who has come and fulfilled those prophecies whereas all they have is what they believe those prophecies mean.

 

[Redemptionsong]

"out of the town of Bethlehem" does not necessarily mean, He must be born in Bethlehem. It can also mean His voice is announced from Bethlehem.
But Jesus was born in Nazareth, and there is no proof that it is the same place as Bethlehem. John 7:42 does not mean, Jesus was born or was from Bethlehem. People were thinking the Messiah was to come out of Bethlehem, but since Jesus was not from Bethlehem, they were questioning. This is because, There are two Messiahs in OT. One Messiah was Jesus. Another Messiah is a Messiah to appear during End Time.
My understanding is The Messiah who must appear during End Time, is what People referring to in John 7:42, when They expected He must be from line of David. But, since they did not know Jesus is not the Messiah of End Time, they were referring to incorrect verses of their Holy Book. Moreover, Jesus did not have a human father, so, it cannot be said He was from the line of David.

There's a big difference between Nazareth and Bethlehem. One is situated in Galilee in the north, the other a short distance from Jerusalem in Judea in the south. Micah was not confused when he prophesied that the 'ruler of Israel' would come from 'among the thousands of Judah'.

This is a serious issue. Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem and this disqualifies him from being the Messiah.

The other point about Jesus' genealogy is that both records, Matthew's and Luke's, have to be taken into account. Only by uniting the two is it possible for his royal and legal lines to be combined successfully.

Another point worth raising is with regard to peace. Jesus brings division to the world, but peace to those who know him. This means that we will not see peace in this world until he returns to bring justice and reign over all. If people cry 'peace' you can be sure that the end is near!

Why would we have to experience a judgment or 'day of wrath' if true peace was to be found in this world?

 

[Trailblazer]

This means that we will not see peace in this world until he returns to being justice and reign over all.

How is that possible, given Jesus said the following?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is the Bible incorrect? If so, the rest of the Bible cannot be trusted to be correct.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus clearly differentiates Himself from God in this verse! That means Jesus is not God, and there are so many more verses like this one that clearly prove Jesus was not God.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Why would this verse refer to God? God cannot give His life because God is not a human who has a life. God is eternal, has always been and will always be.

I can agree with that.

Jesus was the Son of God, and although the Son is not the Father, the Father is in the Son.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Please note that Jesus differentiated Himself from the Father in those verses above. That alone should tell you that Jesus is not God.

When Christians treat Jesus Christ as God, they do so because he is worthy to be followed. The Father is in the Son, and the Son has been sent into the world to save the lost. You cannot bypass the Son if you wish to be saved. One is quite right to distinguish the Father from the Son, but both are holy in Spirit.

It's a mistake to argue that Jesus Christ is not good. It's a mistake to argue that he has not been given dominion by his Father. He reigns now, l believe.

 

[Redemptionsong]

How is that possible, given Jesus said the following?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is the Bible incorrect? If so, the rest of the Bible cannot be trusted to be correct.

One doesn't have to accept that Christ's return is a physical presence on earth to believe in his return. The 'rapture' teaches that both dead and living saints will be drawn up to meet with the Lord in the clouds. This is likened to the time of Noah and the flood. A great flood destroyed all life on earth in Noah's day; only those aboard the ark (in Christ) were saved.

 

[Trailblazer]

When Christians treat Jesus Christ as God, they do so because he is worthy to be followed. The Father is in the Son, and the Son has been sent into the world to save the lost. You cannot bypass the Son if you wish to be saved. One is quite right to distinguush the Father from the Son, but both are holy in Spirit.

Well said. I fully agree with all of the above.

It's a mistake to argue that Jesus Christ is not good. It's a mistake to argue that he has not been given dominion by his Father.

Of course it would be a mistake to say that. Jesus was simply humbling Himself before God when He said:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

He reigns now, l believe.

Baha'is believe that Jesus reigns now and forever in heaven.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

 

[Trailblazer]

One doesn't have to accept that Christ's return is a physical presence on earth to believe in his return. The 'rapture' teaches that both dead and living saints will be drawn up to meet with the Lord in the clouds. This is likened to the time of Noah and the flood. A great flood destroyed all life on earth in Noah's day; only those aboard the ark (in Christ) were saved.

So you believe only a few will be saved and everyone else on earth will perish?

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake, those days shall be shortened.

I believe that the days were shortened and flesh will be saved, because of the Coming of Baha'u'llah

In fact, believe that whole chapter is about the coming of Baha'u'llah, who was the Son of Man who came in the clouds of men's ignorance. Most people did not recognize Baha'ullah because, as the verses say: 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well said. I fully agree with all of the above.

Of course it would be a mistake to say that. Jesus was simply humbling Himself before God when He said:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Baha'is believe that Jesus reigns now and forever in heaven.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

If Jesus reigns now, and forever, then one has only to work backwards to see that the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures all point to Christ, the King.

There can be no second Messiah.

So you believe only a few will be saved and everyone else on earth will perish?

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake, those days shall be shortened.

I believe that the days were shortened and flesh will be saved, because of the Coming of Baha'u'llah

In fact, believe that whole chapter is about the coming of Baha'u'llah, who was the Son of Man who came in the clouds of men's ignorance. Most people did not recognize Baha'ullah because, as the verses say: 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Baha'u'llah had a birth on earth, whilst the second coming is from heaven.

Matthew 24:30. 'And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

These are the words of Jesus, and he knows that he is anointed by God. If the title 'Son of man' belonged to someone else then he would have made this clear. The ascension of Jesus to heaven, 'like the Son of man', is confirmed by Daniel 7:13,14. The reign of Christ only began in heaven after ascension, and is brought to fulfilment by his return and judgment. That return and judgment will be by Jesus Christ, as he spells out on a number of occasions. This makes Baha'u'llah redundant. Baha'u'llah is not needed to send the Holy Spirit, which comes from Christ, spiritually; and Baha'u'llah is not needed as a teacher because the whole Church of believers is occupied in preaching, teaching and nurturing. The Church has been occupied in ministering in a way that one individual on earth cannot manage alone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If Jesus reigns now, and forever, then one has only to work backwards to see that the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures all point to Christ, the King.

There can be no second Messiah.

The Jews will offer there was no First Messiah.

The material interpretation of scripture means many Christians will always wait.

Regards Tony

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Jews will offer there was no First Messiah.

The material interpretation of scripture means many Christians will always wait.

Regards Tony

Not all Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah. For those that have rejected Jesus as Messiah, there is still an opportunity to find out and be convinced.

'And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for his firstborn.' [Zechariah 12:9,10]

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Jews will offer there was no First Messiah.

The material interpretation of scripture means many Christians will always wait.

Regards Tony

Interesting comment you make about Christians being left disappointed by the absence of a 'material' coming. I think a number of things will have to occur on earth before his coming [whether material or spiritual], and these will be a strong indicator of the coming judgment.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What is the Baha'i explanation of what happened at Pentecost...

Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.​

My understanding is, nothing physically happened at all. There was no sound, no fire, no nothing. This day Just symbolizes an event. It was possibly a gathering. But it all means, this gathering was a point, when they started to became more inspired and were able to speak different languages. By different languages is not necessarily meant, speaking Arabic, Spanish, and English, etc. It means they learned how to speak with people in the level of their understanding, and in ways, they can explain the truth to people who had different beliefs and understandings.

It is like today if there is a man who speaks English, but you don't understand each other's language, even though you both speak English. But you become enabled to teach and explain the truth in ways that he can understand. It can be said, you learned his language.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Still amazes me that somebody keep such good genealogical records that they could trace the man who took the tile "Baha'u'llah" all the way back to King David's father. Plus, you guys have him going all the way back to Abraham too. Truly amazing. Yet, we don't have original Scriptures? They all vanished and turned to dust.

We cannot prove that Bahaullah was descendant of Jesse. However, even before Bahaullah claimed that He is a Manifestation of God, His family from His father's side was known to be a descendant of Israelite kings. So, this is an evidence.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What kind of "logic" are you using? I asked about the book of Revelation. And what he did comment on does sound like he made it up. Just like his explanation of the resurrection. If you like them fine. But, for me, reading those things in context don't make "Two Witnesses" and "Three Woes" or the post resurrection stories into what Abdul Baha says they are. So quit being a condescending $%^. Too many Baha'is fight for making what they believe is the truth and not for bringing understanding and unity between the religions. I hope you're happy thinking you're "winning" these arguments.

I was saying, if Abdulbaha was making up interpretations to match them with Bahai history, He must have spent a lot of time, going through the whole Bible verse by verse, and in every verse, thinking how He could possibly match this verse, with something related to history of Bahai Faith and the Bab and Bahaullah. Considering there are about 31,000 verses in Bible, He must have spent a lot of time by Himself, and thinking which ones are possibly prophecies and how He could match them in the favour of the Bab and Bahaullah.
Considering that Abdulbaha was born in a Muslim country where they dont learn Bible, and considering that Abdulbaha was in prison and exile since He Was 9 years old, and that no one ever saw Him studying Bible, doesnt that make you curious when and where He was spending time to come up with these interpretations?
In those days there were no internet or computer He could have used for searching through Bible, and checking cross references, and seeing how scholars interpreted verses.

and You were saying, Abdulbaha did not give an interpretation of all verses and passages of the Revelations of John, and thus He did not do a good job.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There's a big difference between Nazareth and Bethlehem. One is situated in Galilee in the north, the other a short distance from Jerusalem in Judea in the south.

Ok, so, Jesus was from Nazareth according to Christian history. He was not born on Bethlehem.
You are assuming that when OT says, the Ruler is heard out of Bethlehem, that is a reference to Jesus, and thus He must have been born in Bethlehem.

Do you see your assumption?
But when you come to Christian history and NT, there is no verse that actually says, Jesus was from Bethlehem.

Do you see the point?

The point is, the Ruler in OT, who would be heard from Bethlehem is not Jesus. It is the Return of Christ! And this New Person who is the Return of Christ, is not Jesus, but metaphorically is said to be return of Christ. This new person is descendent of Jesse. Jesus did not have a human father, so, He was not descendant of Jesse.

Micah was not confused when he prophesied that the 'ruler of Israel' would come from 'among the thousands of Judah'.

I didnt say Micah was confused. He was a prophet and giving true prophecies. But the Ruler of Israel who would appear in End Times, could not be Jesus for the reasons explained in Bahai scriptures, as I posted.

This is a serious issue. Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem and this disqualifies him from being the Messiah.

This is your interpretation that the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem. My interpretation is, the scriptures is saying the Ruler of Israel would announce from Bethlehem, and His words shall be heard from that region. So, I don't have an issue.

The other point about Jesus' genealogy is that two records, Matthew's and Luke's, both have to be taken into account. Only by uniting the two is it possible for his royal and legal lines to be combined successfully.

Feel free to quote. Does Mathew or Luke actually say, Jesus was a descendant of Jesse or David? How would they say that, when Jesus did not even have a human father?

Another point worth raising is with regard to peace. Jesus brings division to the world, but peace to those who know him. This means that we will not see peace in this world until he returns to being justice and reign over all. If people cry 'peace' you can be sure that the end is near!

In our view the Christ has returned and all those events such as rumors of war, were the events prior to Bahaullah. In 18th and 19th century there war many wars and rumors of war, and King rising against king. I dont see anymore king rising against king.

Why would we have to experience a judment or 'day of wrath' if true peace was to be found in this world?

The promise of peace and unity was given in the scriptures and it was supposed to happen at the time of End, when Christ returns. Bahais believe Bahaullah is the return of Christ who brought all the teachings to humanity to establish peace. But humanity for the most part rejected Bahaullah who is the Manifestation of God.
Thus God changed His plan!

Can God change His plan, when He promised to bring something good?

According to scriptures yes:

"One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10)


so based on those verses, and specially the part I bolded, it does not seem to me contradictory, with Bible, if God promises a Messiah to come and build a new kingdom in east and west, and to bring peace but, if the Messiah comes according to Will of God, He faces evilness and prosecution, God changes His mind about what He had promised and posponds it to a future time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not all Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah. For those that have rejected Jesus as Messiah, there is still an opportunity to find out and be convinced.

'And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for his firstborn.' [Zechariah 12:9,10]

Not all Christians rejected Bahaullah either.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My understanding is, nothing physically happened at all. There was no sound, no fire, no nothing. This day Just symbolizes an event. It was possibly a gathering. But it all means, this gathering was a point, when they started to became more inspired and were able to speak different languages. By different languages is not necessarily meant, speaking Arabic, Spanish, and English, etc. It means they learned how to speak with people in the level of their understanding, and in ways, they can explain the truth to people who had different beliefs and understandings.

It is like today if there is a man who speaks English, but you don't understand each other's language, even though you both speak English. But you become enabled to teach and explain the truth in ways that he can understand. It can be said, you learned his language.

Speaking in tongues is quite common amongst Pentecostal Christians. In smaller meetings, a message given in tongues is sometimes interpreted for the congregation, but on most occasions tongues is used in private prayer. Sometimes you'll find a congregation singing in tongues, but the singing is not in a recognisable language.

The purpose of tongues is the glorification of God. Tongues better express the heart of a believer than normal language is able to do.

Prophecy, which today usually consists in words of edification, also play a part in meetings.

Pentecostal Christians believe in the whole range of fruits [Galatians 5:22,23] and manifestations of the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 12:7-11].

Paul has a lot to say about the gift of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 to 14. He ends up by saying, 'Let all things be done decently and in order', knowing that excitement and ill-discipline can undermine a fellowship of believers. As we know from the day of Pentecost, believers in an excited state can appear drunk.

There is no question that believers were congregated together on the night before Pentecost, because this is the traditional Jewish practice at Shavuot. Jews spend the night praying and giving thanks for the giving of the Law at Sinai. It is not a coincidence that this night was chosen by God to send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the law written on the heart!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ok, so, Jesus was from Nazareth according to Christian history. He was not born on Bethlehem.
You are assuming that when OT says, the Ruler is heard out of Bethlehem, that is a reference to Jesus, and thus He must have been born in Bethlehem.

Do you see your assumption?
But when you come to Christian history and NT, there is no verse that actually says, Jesus was from Bethlehem.

Do you see the point?

The point is, the Ruler in OT, who would be heard from Bethlehem is not Jesus. It is the Return of Christ! And this New Person who is the Return of Christ, is not Jesus, but metaphorically is said to be return of Christ. This new person is descendent of Jesse. Jesus did not have a human father, so, He was not descendant of Jesse.



I didnt say Micah was confused. He was a prophet and giving true prophecies. But the Ruler of Israel who would appear in End Times, could not be Jesus for the reasons explained in Bahai scriptures, as I posted.


This is your interpretation that the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem. My interpretation is, the scriptures is saying the Ruler of Israel would announce from Bethlehem, and His words shall be heard from that region. So, I don't have an issue.





Feel free to quote. Does Mathew or Luke actually say, Jesus was a descendant of Jesse or David? How would they say that, when Jesus did not even have a human father?



In our view the Christ has returned and all those events such as rumors of war, were the events prior to Bahaullah. In 18th and 19th century there war many wars and rumors of war, and King rising against king. I dont see anymore king rising against king.


The promise of peace and unity was given in the scriptures and it was supposed to happen at the time of End, when Christ returns. Bahais believe Bahaullah is the return of Christ who brought all the teachings to humanity to establish peace. But humanity for the most part rejected Bahaullah who is the Manifestation of God.
Thus God changed His plan!

Can God change His plan, when He promised to bring something good?

According to scriptures yes:

"One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it. And at one instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant, And it will do what is evil in My eyes, not to hearken to My voice, I will repent of the good I said to benefit it." (Jeremiah 18:7-10)


so based on those verses, and specially the part I bolded, it does not seem to me contradictory, with Bible, if God promises a Messiah to come and build a new kingdom in east and west, and to bring peace but, if the Messiah comes according to Will of God, He faces evilness and prosecution, God changes His mind about what He had promised and posponds it to a future time.

It's the repeated words of scripture that convince all Christians that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Read some of them for yourself: 'And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)' [Luke 2:4]

Here we have a statement in plain language. No metaphors, only a literal account of events. If you want to look up these places on a map, you can. If you want to visit Nazareth and Bethlehem today, you can!

'For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord'. [Luke 2:11]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not all Jews have rejected Jesus as Messiah. For those that have rejected Jesus as Messiah, there is still an opportunity to find out and be convinced.

'And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for his firstborn.' [Zechariah 12:9,10]

The Jews, the Christains, the Muslims and the Baha'i all share the House of David and the Holy land as a central focus for One God.

I see your interpretation is flawed as you are seeing it as exclusive to one name.

Jerusalem means Abode of Peace, or City of Peace, thus God will pour out on hearts that that are inhabited by peace the spirit, grace and knowledge of Christ.

Christ is the First and Last in is born in every Revelation from God, the First born of the Message in the age it is given, all others need to be born again.

By focusing on the flesh name of Jesus and forgetting that Jesus said that he will build the Church on the knowledge of Peter, is flawed. That knowledge is that Jesus was Christ and Christ is the Name that truth is built upon, faith is not built in flesh and material explanations.

Regards Tony