• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christianity vs Baha'i

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
What should be apparent to anyone who reads the New Testament with care, is that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, and is never the title of a man. Nor is there any indication in the scriptures that any one apart from Jesus Christ is able to baptise with the Holy Spirit.

The reason that Jesus uses the expession 'another Comforter' is because the Holy Spirit has already been present their midst. Jesus was himself baptised with the Holy Spirit. This does not make the Holy Spirit a man because the man, Jesus of Nazareth, existed prior to baptism!

The Bible with regrads to Comforter says

He shall speak whatever He hears. From this we can understand this Comforter has ears to hear, and a tongue to speak, thus, He is a Person who is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It is ALL a matter of how you interpret the verses.... Verses mean different things to different people.

It is clear to me by reading the verses that the Comforter refers to the Holy Spirit which was sent by the Father to Jesus, and then later sent again by the Father to another person, who I believe was Baha'u'llah.

The dead giveaway is when Jesus says that the Father shall give you another Comforter and that Comforter will testify and bear witness of Jesus:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;


That is exactly what Baha'u'llah did when He referred to Jesus in the following passage.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86


Why would what was going to happen in the future be in the New Testament, unless it was a prophecy?

That is your personal interpretation to which you are welcome, but because I know what happened after the New Testament was written, I have more information to go on, so I have a different interpretation, as noted above. You are limited to your personal interpretation of what is in the NT unless you are willing to think outside the box and look at other possibilities.

Such is the case with every Christian, they are limited to their own personal interpretations of scripture from which they form a belief, although they do not have the same interpretations of the same scriptures, which is the dead giveaway that the same scripture can have more than one meaning, if one thinks logically.
'Another Comforter' is not another man, but the presence of God in another form. The baptism is made available to all who would repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

These diverse interpretations that you claim to be acceptable are not representative of the one Truth preached by Jesus Christ.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The Bible with regrads to Comforter says

He shall speak whatever He hears. From this we can understand this Comforter has ears to hear, and a tongue to speak, thus, He is a Person who is the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.
Not so. The Holy Spirit communicates with the spirit in man and with his soul. Since God is one, there is never a communication problem between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The important thing in the debate about the status of Jesus Christ is whether or not He deserves to be followed, worshipped and served. In my opinion, the answer is, unequivocally, Yes.
Of course that is you opinion because you are a Christian. But as a Christian you should know that Jesus wanted to be served but Jesus did not want to be worshiped:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


As a Baha'i and a servant of God, I believe that Baha'u'llah is "Him Who is the Day Spring of God's Revelation and the Fountain of God's laws" so I have two duties, which are called the Twin Duties.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
What does the first commandment state?
It states that we should worship God, not Jesus.

The First Commandment of the Ten Commandments may refer to: "I am the Lord thy God", under Tamludic division of the third-century Jewish Talmud. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me", under the Philonic division used by Hellenistic Jews and Protestants.

First Commandment - Wikipedia
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Not so. The Holy Spirit communicates with the spirit in man and with his soul. Since God is one, there is never a communication problem between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Yes, but in our view, only in certain verse of the Bible where it says "the Comforter shall speak whatever He can hear", is an "allusion" to a person, because when reading this verse carefully we can get a sense this is a person who has ears and a tongue to speak.

I quote Bahai scriptures:


"Now consider carefully that from these words, “for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” it is clear that the Spirit of truth is embodied in a Man Who has individuality, Who has ears to hear and a tongue to speak. In the same way the name “Spirit of God” is used in relation to Christ, as you speak of a light, meaning both the light and the lamp."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 108-109
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Now, there's a challenge l like!

Was Baha'u'llah born in Bethlehem? (Micah 5:2)
Just a question. In the list I provided, does it claim this Micah 5:2 as one of the prophecies fulfilled by Bahaullah?


This is what I found in the Writings of Bahaullah:


"Bethlehem is astir with the Breeze of God. We hear her voice saying: ‘O Most Generous Lord! Where is Thy great glory established? The sweet savors of Thy presence have quickened me, after I had melted in my separation from Thee. Praised be Thou in that Thou hast raised the veils, and come with power in evident glory.’ We called unto her from behind the Tabernacle of Majesty and Grandeur: ‘O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and traveled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him [Jesus]?’"

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 100-105

Bahaullah was not born in Bethlehem but, as He was the manifestation of the Father who spoke in Bethlehem, it can be said the Ruler's voice came out of Bethlehem, and in this way this prophesy could be considered fulfilled.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The New Testament covers all time from the birth of Jesus to his return in judgment, and beyond! There are no future dispensations that are not covered by God's Word. He is the first and the last.
Tell that to the 1.9 billion Muslims who comprise 24% of the world population.
Do you realize how illogical that is to say that many people are all wrong about God?

In my opinion you are making the erroneous assumption that Jesus is the one who the New Testament is referring to who would return and judge. Maybe you never saw my thread entitled:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Why would an omniscient God fail to reveal his will to his chosen Messiah?
God did reveal His will to Jesus, you just do not like what was revealed. Just like all Christians you believe that Jesus the same man is going to return to earth, even that belief has absolutely no basis in the New Testament, as you can see of you read my thread noted above.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
'Another Comforter' is not another man, but the presence of God in another form. The baptism is made available to all who would repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
That is your interpretation, that is all it is. Another Christian would have another interpretation, and the beat goes on as logic goes right out the window in favor of belief.
These diverse interpretations that you claim to be acceptable are not representative of the one Truth preached by Jesus Christ.
How do you know that? Who gave you the authority to inerrantly interpret scripture? Certainly not Jesus.
Seven years posting to Christians and they all believe they know the correct interpretation of scripture, but if there was only one correct interpretation, there would not be thousands of sects of Christianity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now, there's a challenge l like!

Was Baha'u'llah born in Bethlehem? (Micah 5:2)
It is one I also like, because it is so easy to answer. ;)
No, Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem.

3. Begotten in Babylon

I was able to discover several additional clues concerning my second proof and Babylon. The prophecies of Islám, among which were references to the return of the Spirit of Jesus the Christ, made mention of Baghdád (ancient Babylon). The Qur’án alluded to that city as the ‘Abode of Peace’ to which God Himself ‘calleth’. God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, p. 110. To that city, in that same Book, further allusion had been made in the verse: “For them is a Dwelling of Peace with their Lord … on the Day whereon God shall gather them all together.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, p. 110, op cit. Isaiah also spoke of Babylon and the last days when the people would be ‘gathered’ together. In successive chapters leading up to his promise for Babylon, Isaiah declares:

1. “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:22.

2. “Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel … even I will carry, and will deliver you.” Isaiah 46:3–4.

3. “As for our Redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.” Isaiah 47:4. Then Isaiah calls upon them all to hear the words of the one he (God) hath chosen among them in Babylon:

4. “All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.” Isaiah 48:14.

5. “I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.” Isaiah 48:15.

6. “Come ye near unto me … the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.” Isaiah 48:16.

7. “Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer … which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldst go.” Isaiah 48:17.

Isaiah concludes with the words:

8. “Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.” Isaiah 48:20.

Thus Isaiah, like Micah, prophesied that Israel would be redeemed in Babylon. Bahá’u’lláh came to Baghdád (Babylon) and there proclaimed his mission to the world. Unwanted, and unwelcome, he did ‘go forth of Babylon’ and did ‘flee from the Chaldeans’ until he reached the Holy Land that became the world centre of his Faith. This, too, had been foretold by Isaiah in these same chapters. “I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it…and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place my salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.” Isaiah 46:11, 13.


However, it was in the Book of Zechariah that I found the most striking evidence of all that the great Redeemer of the last days would come from Babylon. When Zechariah saw the vision of the one who would say: ‘I am returned to Jerusalem’, he also beheld two olive trees. He asked God to tell him the meaning of the appearance of these two olive trees which appeared in his vision.

“Knowest thou not what these be?’ the Lord asked. “No, my Lord,’ Zechariah answered.

Then God explained the meaning. Zechariah records it thus: “Then he answered me and spoke unto me saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel …” Zechariah 4. In addition to being the name of a rule, this title ‘Zerubbabel’ has a special symbolic significance when we examine its true meaning as given in these verses of Zechariah.

The word Zerubbabel, according to the Oxford University Press red-letter edition of the King James version of the Bible, means ‘Begotten in Babylon’. Other references say that it means ‘Scattered in Babylon’. Cruden, in his Unabridged Concordance, declares it to mean ‘Banished in Babylon’ or ‘Stranger in Babylon’. (‘Born’ in other editions.) All these descriptions fit Bahá’u’lláh. He was ‘banished’ to Babylon from Persia. He was a ‘stranger’ in that land. There in Babylon, his Faith was ‘begotten’. He was in the end ‘scattered’ with his followers, until he, himself, reached the ancient land of Canaan promised by God to Abraham as an inheritance in the last days.

The Faith of Abraham and the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh were both ‘begotten’ in Babylon. The Holy Spirit descended upon each of them in Babylon, and they poured forth the light from their houses of truth in that ancient land. This, too, was foreseen and foretold by Zechariah in his vision:

“Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.” Zechariah 4:8–9.

The Word of God, Abraham, laid the foundation of the house of Israel in Babylon. The Word of God, Bahá’u’lláh finished it, and brought it to fulfilment. Both were ‘begotten in Babylon’. Thus, it was to them, Zerubbabel, that Zechariah directed the message of God:

“This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel (Begotten in Babylon) saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.” Zechariah 4:6.

Lest there be any mistake, Zechariah asked God once more concerning the meaning of the two olive trees. The Lord answered him saying:

“These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” Zechariah 4:14. These two olive trees were Abraham who began the concept of the oneness of God in Babylon, and Bahá’u’lláh who brought the concept of the oneness of God and religion to its fulfilment in Babylon. In yet another way, these two olive trees were the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, who in the last days ‘stand by the Lord of the whole earth’.

I also discovered that the meaning of the word Baghdád, the city in which Bahá’u’lláh declared his Mission, is: ‘The City of God’. Again, Bahá’u’lláh had fulfilled the promises of the sacred Scripture. He had kept the prophecies of Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, and those of Islám and India, which foretold that the Messiah would come to the land of Babylon, withdraw into the wilderness, then, from that land of ancient mystery, proclaim his mission to the whole world. I marked the second proof: Fulfilled.

(William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 115-118)

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not so. The Holy Spirit communicates with the spirit in man and with his soul. Since God is one, there is never a communication problem between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
If that is true, the Father must have schizophrenia, since all Christians who claim to have the indwelt Holy Spirit are getting a different message.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Just a question. In the list I provided, does it claim this Micah 5:2 as one of the prophecies fulfilled by Bahaullah?


This is what I found in the Writings of Bahaullah:


"Bethlehem is astir with the Breeze of God. We hear her voice saying: ‘O Most Generous Lord! Where is Thy great glory established? The sweet savors of Thy presence have quickened me, after I had melted in my separation from Thee. Praised be Thou in that Thou hast raised the veils, and come with power in evident glory.’ We called unto her from behind the Tabernacle of Majesty and Grandeur: ‘O Bethlehem! This Light hath risen in the orient, and traveled towards the occident, until it reached thee in the evening of its life. Tell Me then: Do the sons recognize the Father, and acknowledge Him, or do they deny Him, even as the people aforetime denied Him [Jesus]?’"

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 100-105

Bahaullah was not born in Bethlehem but, as He was the manifestation of the Father who spoke in Bethlehem, it can be said the Ruler's voice came out of Bethlehem, and in this way this prophesy could be considered fulfilled.

That's really not good enough. This prophecy from Micah is not listed as a prophecy fulfilled by Baha'u'llah for one simple reason; Baha'u'llah is not the promised Messiah.

Thankfully, scripture cannot be broken, and the Micah prophecy is supported by scriptures elsewhere. Let's take a look at the words of John 7:40-42:
'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh out of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'


Any attempt to spiritualise an event that actually took place is clearly a false teaching. Both Matthew and Luke give detailed records of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.

The reason that Jesus Christ can be relied upon as the fulfilment of prophecy is that he fulfils all the 'suffering servant' prophecies of the first advent. He can be relied on to be the Messiah who will return to judge. Interestingly, many of the prophecies in Isaiah combine the first and second advents without a natural break in context (for example Isaiah 61). Jesus discerned this difference and stated clearly that his first advent was to bring salvation and mercy, leaving the vengeance of God to a future date (see Jesus' words in the synagogue, Luke 4).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
That is your interpretation, that is all it is. Another Christian would have another interpretation, and the beat goes on as logic goes right out the window in favor of belief.

How do you know that? Who gave you the authority to inerrantly interpret scripture? Certainly not Jesus.
Seven years posting to Christians and they all believe they know the correct interpretation of scripture, but if there was only one correct interpretation, there would not be thousands of sects of Christianity.

The claim to being the truth lies squarely with Jesus. I accept the truth of His words.

'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.'

The struggle you have, I believe, is not with interpretation but with Jesus Christ. As scripture says, He is a stumbling block for many.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Give me some time!
@Trailblazer provided a book, written by a Christian who became a Bahai. It is a very good book.

Here is another list, in Bahai Writings by Shoghi Effendi:

To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father....
To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father,” the “Prince of Peace,” the “Wonderful,” the “Counsellor,” the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” Who “will come with strong hand,” Who “shall judge among the nations,” Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” and Who “shall assemble the 95 outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” To Him Haggai had referred as the “Desire of all nations,” and Zachariah as the “Branch” Who “shall grow up out of His place,” and “shall build the Temple of the Lord.” Ezekiel had extolled Him as the “Lord” Who “shall be king over all the earth,” while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the “day of Jehovah,” the latter describing it as “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.” His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the “day of the Lord,” and Malachi described as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” when “the Sun of Righteousness” will “arise, with healing in His wings,” whilst Daniel had pronounced His advent as signalizing the end of the “abomination that maketh desolate"
To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103



You can pick any of these in the list, and ask how did Bahaullah fulfill it.

It'll take time to provide a full response to these claims made by Effendi, but it's clear from the extract that he has selected a number of prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures and applied them to Baha'u'llah. I'd like to show that, when viewed panoramically, all these prophecies can only be reasonably applied to one person, Jesus Christ.

Effendi has taken prophecies from Isaiah, David, Haggai, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Joel, Zephaniah, Daniel and Malachi. He has also applied New Testament passages spoken by Jesus, Paul and Peter and applied these to Baha'u'llah.

Starting only with Effendi's introductory paragraph, let me show from scripture that Jesus is the intended king of Israel.
Luke 2:28-32. 'Then took he [Simeon] him [the baby Jesus] up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.'

There are only so many ways you can interpret this scripture. It was spoken by an old man, led by the Spirit of God. These are prophetic words and need to be digested.

Now let's go to another of Effendi's chosen prophets, Isaiah.
In Isaiah 11:1,2. it says, 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;'

Note: The Messiah is to be a descendant of Jesse, who was from Bethlehem. God is telling us that the Spirit 'shall rest upon him'.

In Isaiah 42:1 it says, 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighted; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'.

Note: The evidence is cumulative. The servant, 'in whom my soul delighted' [Matthew 3:17] is to be the one anointed with the Spirit of God. It is He who will 'bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'.

Then in Isaiah 42:6 it says, 'I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.'

Note: Who is given as a covenant of the people? Who is the new covenant? It's the same person who is called 'a light for the Gentiles' [see Luke 2:28-32]. What is he going to do? He is going to 'open the blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from prison'.

Now look at Isaiah 61:1. 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captive, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,....'


Note: Do you recognise this passage? It was spoken by Jesus after his anointing and temptation [Luke 4:16>] He spoke these words to announce to the world that he was the chosen Messiah.

I could add many well known passages from chapter 53, but these have been covered in an earlier post.

It all fits together, if you have the keys!
 
Last edited:

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
With reference to Christendom, let me use one of Jesus Christ's own parables to demonstrate that there is only one Messiah, and that it is He who returns to judge.

Luke 19:9-15, 26, 27:
'And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he [Zaccheus] also is a son of Abraham.
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds [mina], and said unto them, Occupy till I come.'
[skip to v.26,27]
'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.'

Note: Jesus addresses himself as the Son of man. He also plays the part of the nobleman in the parable. The same nobleman who goes away is going to return and judge his servants. There is no room for more 'dispensations' before the judgment comes!
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's really not good enough. This prophecy from Micah is not listed as a prophecy fulfilled by Baha'u'llah for one simple reason; Baha'u'llah is not the promised Messiah.
No, that is not the reason. Micah 5:2 is about Jesus, so it is a prophecy about the first coming of Christ, as noted below. Jesus was the ruler in Israel, but Jesus never said He would rule the earth.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’. (The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.


Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

upload_2020-12-11_9-59-7.png

upload_2020-12-11_9-59-20.png

Thankfully, scripture cannot be broken, and the Micah prophecy is supported by scriptures elsewhere. Let's take a look at the words of John 7:40-42:
'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh out of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?'


Any attempt to spiritualise an event that actually took place is clearly a false teaching. Both Matthew and Luke give detailed records of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.
Let’s not argue a straw man. Baha’is never said that Jesus was not the Messiah; we believe that Jesus was the Messiah. All we say is that Jesus is not going to return to earth a second time. What we say is that Jesus will not be the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory – that was Baha’u’llah.
The reason that Jesus Christ can be relied upon as the fulfilment of prophecy is that he fulfils all the 'suffering servant' prophecies of the first advent.
Jesus might have fulfilled some of the Suffering Servant prophecies, but Jesus did not fulfill all the Suffering Servant prophecies as I already posted to you. Here it is again.

Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9 and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but so did Baha’u’llah, but Jesus did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus. That is how we know it is about someone else who would be the return of Christ.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28

The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.

These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

(Continued on next post)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He can be relied on to be the Messiah who will return to judge. Interestingly, many of the prophecies in Isaiah combine the first and second advents without a natural break in context (for example Isaiah 61). Jesus discerned this difference and stated clearly that his first advent was to bring salvation and mercy, leaving the vengeance of God to a future date (see Jesus' words in the synagogue, Luke 4).
See the verses below. No, the same man Jesus cannot be counted upon to be the Messiah who will return to judge unless Jesus lied or the New Testament has errors; in which case there is no way any of the other verses in the NT can be relied upon to be correct, logically speaking.

Not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. Rather, Jesus said His work was finished in the world and He was no more in the world. What about the clearly written English language do Christians not understand?

Why didn’t Jesus say He was going to return to earth if He had been planning to return to earth? If Jesus was planning to return to earth why did Jesus say I have finished my work, the world will see me no more, and I am no more in the world?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
 
Top