Christianity vs Baha'i

[CG Didymus]

That's right....

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

But we're talking about a Christianity that doesn't believe that. It believes that there are many false religions out there... including many that call themselves "Christian". They believe they are in a battle with Satanic forces that have deceived many into believing in these false religions. They aren't going to accept or unify with any of them. But, are Baha'is going to accept and unify with them? Fundamentalist Christianity? You're not. You believe they are wrong. And Baha'is have told them how they are wrong. Does that cause unity or discord? Discord. And you need to. You can't go along with a religion that is teaching false things about God and Jesus. But, they feel just as strongly about the Baha'is out there teaching false things. How you going to fix that? You have your beliefs and they have theirs.

 

[CG Didymus]

When one gets time, please search and quote as requested in my post #63 .
My Bahai friends here may not quote in a straightforward manner, I understand.
I am interested, please?

Regards

Here's this, Baha'i beliefs about the resurrection...
.The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104

From letters written on behalf of the Guardian

We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.
9 October 1947 to an individual believer

 

[CG Didymus]

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

Where on that map are the major Persian cities where the Baha'i Faith got started? And, where in Elam did God set his throne? Baha'is have some quote that gets Mt Carmel mentioned, but Baha'is don't have any good ties in with Jerusalem, Mt. Zion, and the Mt of Olives. It's all too vague and subject to manipulation of meanings. Just like Christians did to the Jewish Scriptures when Matthew took all sorts of out of context quotes and made them prophecies... "out of Egypt I called my son", "Rahab crying", "he will be called a nazirite" What is literal. What is symbolic. What is a prophecy is way too subjective. "It is finished"? Literal. "He has risen and is alive"? Symbolic. "Throne in Elam"? A literal prophecy.

 

[Skywalker]

But the following verses mean that the same Jesus who walked the earth will not come again.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Theres an explanation for verses like that and the second coming of Christ. The world sees Jesus no more is not in the context of His return, neither is the verse about Jesus saying he's not in the world. Was Jesus’ statement to the disciples in Luke 9:27 (also Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1) incorrect? | GotQuestions.org

Was Jesus’ statement to the disciples in Luke 9:27 (also Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1) incorrect?

Answer: Luke 9:27 says, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." See also Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1 for the parallel quotes. In each of the synoptic Gospels, the next event immediately after this promise from Jesus is the transfiguration. Rather than interpreting Jesus’ promise as referring to His coming to establish His kingdom on earth, the context indicates that Jesus was referring to the transfiguration. The Greek word translated "kingdom" can also be translated "royal splendor," meaning that the three disciples standing there would see Christ as He really is—the King of heaven—which occurred in the transfiguration.

The "transfiguration" refers to the event described in the above cited passages when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the top of the mountain, where He met with Moses and Elijah—representing the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament—and spoke with them. The disciples saw Jesus in all His glory and splendor, talking with a glorified Moses and Elijah. This is a glimpse of what will occur in Jesus’ kingdom. The disciples were dumbstruck at the sight and "fell on their faces" (Matthew 17:6).

It seems most natural to interpret this promise in Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; and Luke 9:27 as a reference to the transfiguration, which "some" of the disciples would witness only six days later, exactly as Jesus predicted. In each Gospel, the very next passage after this promise from Jesus is the transfiguration, which shows Jesus in all His glory which will be seen again in the Kingdom of God. The contextual links make it very likely that this is the proper interpretation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The message given in the NT says Jesus came back to life.

To understand who Jesus was, one must understand what Peter offered. So in that regard the question for us is, who did Peter say Jesus was?

When a person answers that question in their heart, it will change their view of the flesh that was named Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that is far different than the message as given. The message as given in the NT is not the message that Baha'is give. The one I usually argue with you about is the resurrection. The message given in the NT says Jesus came back to life. Baha'is say that the resurrection story was not literal but symbolic. So "how" we are to believe in Jesus does not include a physical resurrection. And many of us don't believe it literally happened. The difference is that some of us say it was a made up, embellished story that has a lot in common with other stories from other religions about dying and rising saviors. Which makes if a lie. Makes it fictional. Makes it nothing but a myth.

What do Baha'is say? From what I've heard Baha'is make it sound like God "inspired" the gospel writers to write a "symbolic" story about Jesus rising from the dead to test the people? To see if they would be spiritual enough to understand the symbolic meaning in the story? But then Baha'is make most all "miraculous" Bible stories symbolic... Creation, the flood, stopping the sun in the sky, parting of the seas, turning a walking stick into a snake, walking on water. By the time we're done, what part of the Bible is not fictional?

The message of the Bible as believed by the conservative, fundamentalists and orthodox sides of Judaism and Christianity is totally and completely wrong according to Baha'is. That is the Baha'i message... and it might be right. Those beliefs of the Jews and Christians might all be wrong and filled with misinterpretations and superstitious beliefs. But then what do Baha'is really believe about Moses and Jesus? What was their true message and teachings? We can't trust what's in the Bible and NT. We can only trust what Baha'u'llah has said about what is true about them.

Just one comment CG, it is not the Baha'i that gave those explanations.

The quandary is that the Bible, the Quran, the Writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah and all Messengers stand on their own merit.

What is contained within them is only of their explanations. If what we understand has not been explained by them, we are open to much error.

We must be like children, forgot what we have learnt and start again, we must listen to what the Messengers say and learn from them.

Matthew 18:1 on "At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, ....... "

We learn many bad habits and they are hard to break.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But we're talking about a Christianity that doesn't believe that. It believes that there are many false religions out there... including many that call themselves "Christian". They believe they are in a battle with Satanic forces that have deceived many into believing in these false religions.

Expand the audience, it is not only Christians, it would be all Faiths prior to the latest Message given, most do not except God's New Message.

That goes back to the Quandary thread, it has all been said before CG.

That is part of the return, the good returns, but so does the rejection.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Scripture tells us there is only one mediator. Why do you doubt scripture?

Because I have a new scripture that I believe supersedes the Bible, so I believe that there is one mediator for every age and Baha'u'llah is the mediator for this age.

I believe that Jesus was the mediator for a former age. That belief is based upon my belief in Dispensations, and that each successive Dispensation abrogates all the Dispensations that preceded it..

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I do not believe that the gospel of Jesus has been abrogated because the Word of God can never be abrogated. It is only the Dispensation of Jesus that has been abrogated.... That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once the Mission of Jesus was completed and Christianity fulfilled its purpose for humanity, there was no reason for Jesus to remain in this world or to return to this world. God always sends another Messenger, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the age in which He appears. The new Messenger always brings a new remedy that is needed for the age in which He appears.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Also, it is patently absurd that Jesus would be the one and only mediator for all time and God would be all-loving and just, because such a God would not leave 71% of the human population out in the cold. Thus the entire belief system based upon Jesus is the Only Way is offensive to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Moses was 100% man, but not 100% God. He was a prophet, but he was also a sinner, like you and I. The same can be said of every other human that has walked this earth. The only exception, according to the Bible, is Jesus Christ.

No, that Jesus is the only exception is not according to the Bible or Jesus, it is according to Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting.

What do you think about the olivet discourse and his coming of of the Son of Man episode? Is Jesus referring to someone else?

I believe that Jesus was the Son of Man but I do not believe that Jesus was referring to Himself in the Bible verses that refer to the Son of Man who would return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I believe that was Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Son of Man.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven, but did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “and then shall they see me coming in the clouds of heaven?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person.

How do you write in 3rd person?

Third person refers to people “on the outside.” You either write about someone by name or use third person pronouns. Third person pronouns include: he, she, it; his, her, its; him, her, it; himself, herself, itself; they; them; their; themselves.
6 Ways to Write in Third Person - wikiHow

Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and then Jesus says “of him also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

#1 Trailblazer, Aug 23, 2020

 

[Trailblazer]

I am interested to know your perspective on the Revelations episode of the coming of the "Word of God" (Logos tou theos). Is that another person?

I am not that familiar with the Book of Revelation, but I believe when it talks about the man who would come in the ends times it is referring to Baha'u'llah, not Jesus. Jesus never promised to return to earth. Jesus said His work was finished on earth and He was no more in the world. Christians cannot get around those verses so they conveniently ignore them, but there are NO verses wherein Jesus promised to return so they cannot produce those when I ask for them.

The primary bone of contention between Christians and Baha'is is that Christians believe the same man Jesus is going to return and Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. Christians just cannot accept that Jesus has been supplanted by Baha'u'llah. They have been taught by the Church to believe that Jesus was the Only Way and the One Mediator between God and man for all time, but Muhammad supplanted Jesus long before the Bab and Baha'u'llah supplanted Him, and there is nothing Christians can do about that except continue believing. However, their belief is not going to bring Jesus back or change God's Plan for humanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Theres an explanation for verses like that and the second coming of Christ. The world sees Jesus no more is not in the context of His return, neither is the verse about Jesus saying he's not in the world. Was Jesus’ statement to the disciples in Luke 9:27 (also Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1) incorrect? | GotQuestions.org

Christians "believe" they have an explanation for everything, but Jesus clearly said He was no more in the world and that means He is not going to return to the world. How many hundreds of times do I need to post these verses on this forum?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

But of course Christians always have a way out of accepting what Jesus said instead of accepting the reality that Jesus is heaven and they will see Him after they die.

Moreover, there is not one single verse in the Bible wherein Jesus promised to return to earth, not one.
That Jesus will return to earth is just a Christian belief based upon nothing except what they want.

 

[paarsurrey]

Here's this, Baha'i beliefs about the resurrection...
.The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
"Some Answered Questions", rev. ed. (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), p. 104

From letters written on behalf of the Guardian

We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the Crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His Ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually His true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with His disciples after resurrection is the same thing.
9 October 1947 to an individual believer

Is there anything from Bahaullah himself, preferably from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude, please.

Regards

 

[PearlSeeker]

Baha'is say that the resurrection story was not literal but symbolic. So "how" we are to believe in Jesus does not include a physical resurrection. And many of us don't believe it literally happened. The difference is that some of us say it was a made up, embellished story that has a lot in common with other stories from other religions about dying and rising saviors. Which makes if a lie. Makes it fictional. Makes it nothing but a myth.

Paul's personal experience with Jesus made him from persecutor to missionary.

 

[Trailblazer]

But we're talking about a Christianity that doesn't believe that. It believes that there are many false religions out there... including many that call themselves "Christian". They believe they are in a battle with Satanic forces that have deceived many into believing in these false religions. They aren't going to accept or unify with any of them. But, are Baha'is going to accept and unify with them?

Notice how many times you said they believe. Sure they believe that, but that does not mean it is true.
This is not just about the Baha'is vs. the Christians, it is about the Christians vs. every other religion in the world. Christians believe Jesus is the Only Way and that the Bible is the only true scripture and that Christianoty is the only true religion.

Fundamentalist Christianity? You're not. You believe they are wrong. And Baha'is have told them how they are wrong. Does that cause unity or discord? Discord. And you need to. You can't go along with a religion that is teaching false things about God and Jesus.

We have told them what we believe and I have told them what is in the Bible, we have not told them they are wrong. No, I cannot go along with a religion that I believe has false teachings about Jesus and God because that would be dishonest. Do you see Christians going along with Baha'i beliefs? Why should there be a double standard?

But, they feel just as strongly about the Baha'is out there teaching false things. How you going to fix that? You have your beliefs and they have theirs.

There is no fixing that and there is no reconciliation between the Baha'i Faith and Christianity, so why pretend?

As long as Christians believe that (1) Jesus is the Only Way and that (2) the Bible is the only true scripture and that (3) the same man Jesus is going to return, there is no chance of reconciliation of our beliefs, so we just have to accept that our beliefs differ and try to get along in a spirit of harmony and unity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Revelations 19:11 onwards.

According to Bahai Scriptures it is fulfilled by Manifestion of Bahai faith.

For example in Revelation 19, it speaks of 24 elderly. Abdulbaha, wrote, in every dispensation, there were 12 holy beings who promoted religion of God. For example, after Moses there were 12. Jesus also had 12 apostles. Muhammad, according to Shia, had 12 Imams. But according to Abdulbaha, in the Babi, and Bahai dispensation, there are 24. So, the 24 elderly, are certain companions or followers in the Babi, and Bahai dispensation.

Abdulbaha wrote a commentary on the Holy One on the White Horse, and He said that refers to the Manifestation of God in our Time.

The Word of God, was the title of Jesus. Bahaullah is believed to be return of Christ by Bahais.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where on that map are the major Persian cities where the Baha'i Faith got started? And, where in Elam did God set his throne? Baha'is have some quote that gets Mt Carmel mentioned, but Baha'is don't have any good ties in with Jerusalem, Mt. Zion, and the Mt of Olives. It's all too vague and subject to manipulation of meanings. Just like Christians did to the Jewish Scriptures when Matthew took all sorts of out of context quotes and made them prophecies... "out of Egypt I called my son", "Rahab crying", "he will be called a nazirite" What is literal. What is symbolic. What is a prophecy is way too subjective. "It is finished"? Literal. "He has risen and is alive"? Symbolic. "Throne in Elam"? A literal prophecy.

There are so many ways that prophecies can be interpreted but when one lays out all the puzzle pieces they all come together and the prophecies show that Baha'u'llah was the one the Bible was referring to as the return of Christ and the Messiah. There really is no way around that because history and geography and they cannot be denied.

 

[Trailblazer]

Expand the audience, it is not only Christians, it would be all Faiths prior to the latest Message given, most do not except God's New Message.

Or each other's messages.

So if their understanding of their scriptures was actually correct, God would be a schizophrenic.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is there anything from Bahaullah himself, preferably from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude, please.

Regards

To my knowledge, Baha'u'llah did not refer to the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Below are the instances I know about wherein Baha'u'llah explains what the TRUE Resurrection is.

The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection because God has resurrected His Cause and by sending a new Manifestation.

“How strange! These people with one hand cling to those verses of the Qur’án and those traditions of the people of certitude which they have found to accord with their inclinations and interests, and with the other reject those which are contrary to their selfish desires. “Believe ye then part of the Book, and deny part?” 4……..And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” is explicitly stated in the Book. It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 169-170

“Strive, therefore, O my brother, to grasp the meaning of “Resurrection,” and cleanse thine ears from the idle sayings of these rejected people. Shouldst thou step into the realm of complete detachment, thou wilt readily testify that no day is mightier than this Day, and that no resurrection more awful than this Resurrection can ever be conceived. One righteous work performed in this Day, equalleth all the virtuous acts which for myriads of centuries men have practised—nay, We ask forgiveness of God for such a comparison! For verily the reward which such a deed deserveth is immensely beyond and above the estimate of men. Inasmuch as these undiscerning and wretched souls have failed to apprehend the true meaning of “Resurrection” and of the “attainment unto the divine Presence,” they therefore have remained utterly deprived of the grace thereof.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 144-145

“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope 63 that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62- 63

 

[CG Didymus]

Is there anything from Bahaullah himself, preferably from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude, please.

Regards

Ask one of the many Baha'is here. My argument with them is that the NT clearly teaches that Jesus rose from the dead and was seen alive and ate with them, talked with them and let them touch him to show it was him and not a ghost. I'm fine if that was just a made up story to make Jesus greater than any other prophet/savior. But that would make the NT a fabricated work of the early Christians. And I'm fine with that too. But Baha'is twist it into being true in one sense and false in another. It is true in a spiritual, symbolic way but not true in a literal way.