Christianity vs Baha'i

[loverofhumanity]

The truth of all religions as a kind of impossible sound to it.

I find that there’s a common thread of truth that runs through all the major religions. Although outwardly the social laws and history of each Faith differs and is unique to suit the needs of each age and people, virtues are taught by all of them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see no difference, both the Messenger of the Christians and the Baha'i is from the same One God and as a Baha'i we make no distinction between the Messengers.

I see conversion is just a change in one's frame of reference, I see it is possible to embrace all the Messengers and the Messages given.

As such it is not an us verses them, it is about us embracing each other as one human family under One God.

Regards Tony

Do Baha'is really believe "all" the messages given? No, especially important for Christians to know is... Creation and most all of the Bible stories Baha'is say are not literal. Baha'is believe Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed, Satan is not real, and the big one, Jesus physically died and stayed dead and his physical body has rotted away. He did not physically rise from the dead.

But are these bad things? Maybe for "Bible-believing" Christians they are, but to others not believing those things are literally true is probably a plus. But no, Baha'is don't believe the messages as given.

 

[paarsurrey]

Do Baha'is really believe "all" the messages given? No, especially important for Christians to know is... Creation and most all of the Bible stories Baha'is say are not literal. Baha'is believe Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed, Satan is not real, and the big one, Jesus physically died and stayed dead and his physical body has rotted away. He did not physically rise from the dead.

But are these bad things? Maybe for "Bible-believing" Christians they are, but to others not believing those things are literally true is probably a plus. But no, Baha'is don't believe the messages as given.

" Jesus physically died and stayed dead and his physical body has rotted away. He did not physically rise from the dead."

It is a news for me. Kindly quote it for me from them, preferably from Bahaullah, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Audie]

I find that there’s a common thread of truth that runs through all the major religions. Although outwardly the social laws and history of each Faith differs and is unique to suit the needs of each age and people, virtues are taught by all of them.

Ah I see.
Basically, that folk wisdom is about universal human nature.

 

[CG Didymus]

I find that there’s a common thread of truth that runs through all the major religions. Although outwardly the social laws and history of each Faith differs and is unique to suit the needs of each age and people, virtues are taught by all of them.

The Christianity you have to deal with the most believes the Bible very literally. They believe Adam fell and caused sin and death to enter the world. Baha'is believe Adam is a manifestation of God, which makes him the same as Moses or Jesus or Baha'u'llah. Those Christians believe Satan is real and that all people will be judged and sent either to heaven or hell. Baha'is, from what I've heard, believe that a person continues to grow closer to God in various spiritual worlds. To avoid being cast into hell, a person needs to accept the free gift of salvation that is offered them. Which is accepting Jesus as having paid the penalty for their sins by suffering death on the cross. And so on.

A very good argument can be made that this is what the NT teaches. With those beliefs, it makes all other religions unnecessary. With those beliefs it makes all other religions, except Judaism, religions of man and therefore false. It also makes many of the other Christians denominations and sects, including the Roman Catholic Church false.

Most of us don't want them to be right. So why are they wrong? Why are the Bible stories not literal. Why is there no Satan? Why don't people need to be "saved" in the way Born-again Christians believe people need to be saved? Why don't Baha'is believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead?

I've heard most all the Baha'i answers to these, but with each new thread about Christianity and the Baha'is Faith, I think it is the most important thing to lay right out there... Why don't Baha'is believe the things that those types of Christians believe?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can there be more than one mediator?

Why can't there be more than one mediator?
Who was the mediator before Jesus came? Don't you believe that Moses was the mediator for the Jews?
Do you think that the Omnipotent God is powerless to send another mediator?

 

[rational experiences]

Faith. To allow self in spiritual natural life to be wrong. And self develop.

Christ revelations. Scientific information that did not allow for further incorrect science to continue life sacrifice owned no argument. It was scientific relevant.

Hence science wisdom said science cannot develop wisdom. It was already known via human living conditions.

Science however did not stop it's practiced claim I will know everything. Hence to know radiation is when it destroys you.

Faith in Baha'i about science choice was human reasoning of saviour spatial self proof. Wandering stone had replaced lost earth gases burnt out in space.

Activated radiation gas burning volume removed natural gas light also.

Baha'i owned the faith that new scientific revelation would prevent the sacrifice of life. It was a self inferred new faith of spiritual self advice.

Both are therefore correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've heard most all the Baha'i answers to these, but with each new thread about Christianity and the Baha'is Faith, I think it is the most important thing to lay right out there... Why don't Baha'is believe the things that those types of Christians believe?

I see you found the thread. Where have you been lately, I have missed seeing you here.

I think the important question to ask is why Baha'is should believe what those types of Christians believe, considering that other types of Christians don't even believe them, yet all are reading from the same Bible.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You also have the Bible, but Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets, which is the equivalent of many, many Bibles..

How much of those tablets do you have access to?
And how much has now been translated into the english language?


I see the Bahai.org library only shows a few options for the writings of Baha'u'llah in english. Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

And 16 tablets Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)


Is there another online source with more tablets?




I found some info about the tablets:

"The writings, or tablets, of the Báb, Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi are stored at various places at the Bahá'í World Center in Haifa, Israel. Soon they will be moved to a building named "The Center for the Study of the Sacred Texts," which is under construction as of this writing. Microfiche copies of the tablets are also preserved for safekeeping at a variety of places around the world.

Many texts were lost, stolen, or destroyed, and many others are still held in private hands.

The estimated figures for the total number of individual tablets are as follows: Bahá'u'lláh, 7,160 tablets archived, 15,000 total estimated to have been written; 'Abdu'l-Bahá, 15,549 tablets archived, 30,800 total estimated to have been written; Shoghi Effendi, 16,370 letters archived, 30,100 total estimated to have been written".


"Bahá'u'lláh revealed over 15,000 tablets. Some are long (several hundred pages) but most are a page or two, written to a specific individual to answer a question or convey encouragement. Shoghi Effendi translated about a thousand pages into English in His lifetime. Gleanings contains 166 extracts, Prayers and Meditations 184, but some tablets provided more than one extract, so the total number of tablets that the Guardian used was less than the sum of the extracts in the two books (350).

Since the Guardian did not assemble a list of his sources, it has been necessary to search for the original tablets he used, and they have not all been identified yet.



More recently, the Universal House of Justice has overseen production of Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh Revealed after the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and The Kitáb-i-Aqdas: The Most Holy Book, rendering into English 500 more pages of revelation. It appears that less than 500 of the 15,000 tablets — a relatively small percentage of the total revelation — have been partially translated and published in English.

Since the works were selected by the Guardian and Universal House of Justice, we can be sure that those available are the most significant and useful texts".



Number of tablets revealed by Bahá'u'lláh (bahai-library.com)



So it seems Bahais dont have 15,000 tablets written by Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

" Jesus physically died and stayed dead and his physical body has rotted away. He did not physically rise from the dead."

It is a news for me. Kindly quote it for me from them, preferably from Bahaullah, please. Right, please?

Regards

It's their belief. I've talked about that a lot with Trailblazer. It'd be best if she or one of the other Baha'is give you quotes and the reasons why they don't believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. But, related to that, they don't believe in the "body double" switch and that someone else was crucified in place of Jesus. But, like I say, except for some Christians and some Moslems, not believing that is a positive.

So the main point is that Baha'is don't believe the "messages" of the other religions. Some things they change, or what I call "reinterpret". Like everyone uses the "comforter" verses in a different way. The Born-again Christians say that is talking about the Holy Spirit that came on Pentecost. Baha'is say that is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. That he is the Comforter, and that he is the one that will come and lead us all into the Truth.

All the messages get turned into whatever the new religion wants them to say. They make sense to the people in the new religion. And give reasons to the older religions to say that the new religion is teaching falsehoods and manipulating the "truth" of the Scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it seems Bahais dont have 15,000 tablets written by Baha'u'llah.

I said: "Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets, which is the equivalent of many, many Bibles."

I did not say that all the Tablets have been translated into English, but all the original Tablets do exist in Persian and Arabic at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel. As I recall, only about 15% of those Tablets have been translated into English to date.

Number of tablets revealed by Bahá'u'lláh

 

[CG Didymus]

I see you found the thread. Where have you been lately, I have missed seeing you here.

I think the important question to ask is why Baha'is should believe what those types of Christians believe, considering that other types of Christians don't even believe them, yet all are reading from the same Bible.

I work construction and we're remodeling a Wendy's in Salinas and I'm commuting to the job. I don't got the energy left to go through all the posts and threads during the week. But anyway, for the non-Baha'is and the Christians here, for a Baha'i to say that Baha'is believe in the messenger and the message is a little misleading.

Sure liberal Christians got with the times and went with a more rational/scientific look at the Bible stories and decided those things didn't really happen. But how does a person call Bible stories "BS" in a nice way? The Baha'is say, "They were symbolic" or "They were misinterpreted". I think it would be nice for Baha'is to be the ones to say why they believe them to be symbolic or misinterpreted.

To ask it the other way around is kind of awkward... "Jesus is the only way?" What's a Baha'i going to say? No? Instead, we need to hear the Baha'i explanation. Or, even the Creation or flood story. God created the world and all that exists in six days? A Baha'i can't just say "no" that's a crock. They have to go through, again and again, the basic beliefs on why they believe stories like that were meant to be taken symbolically.

Okay, I'm burned out already. See you tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

But anyway, for the non-Baha'is and the Christians here, for a Baha'i to say that Baha'is believe in the messenger and the message is a little misleading.

Sure liberal Christians got with the times and went with a more rational/scientific look at the Bible stories and decided those things didn't really happen. But how does a person call Bible stories "BS" in a nice way? The Baha'is say, "They were symbolic" or "They were misinterpreted". I think it would be nice for Baha'is to be the ones to say why they believe them to be symbolic or misinterpreted.

The reason we believe that is because that is what the Baha'i Writings say, and we believe that those Writings constitute the latest revelation from God and the most authentic. That is the honest answer.

Also, we believe what we do about the Bible because that is what Baha'i Bible scholars say.

Take care of yourself and don't get burned out.... These are tough times and that's a long commute and hard work.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Baha'is really believe "all" the messages given? No, especially important for Christians to know is... Creation and most all of the Bible stories Baha'is say are not literal. Baha'is believe Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed, Satan is not real, and the big one, Jesus physically died and stayed dead and his physical body has rotted away. He did not physically rise from the dead.

But are these bad things? Maybe for "Bible-believing" Christians they are, but to others not believing those things are literally true is probably a plus. But no, Baha'is don't believe the messages as given.

Good morning CG.

I see Baha'u'llah has shown how to beleive all the Messengers and what they offered.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Christianity you have to deal with the most believes the Bible very literally. They believe Adam fell and caused sin and death to enter the world. Baha'is believe Adam is a manifestation of God, which makes him the same as Moses or Jesus or Baha'u'llah. Those Christians believe Satan is real and that all people will be judged and sent either to heaven or hell. Baha'is, from what I've heard, believe that a person continues to grow closer to God in various spiritual worlds. To avoid being cast into hell, a person needs to accept the free gift of salvation that is offered them. Which is accepting Jesus as having paid the penalty for their sins by suffering death on the cross. And so on.

A very good argument can be made that this is what the NT teaches. With those beliefs, it makes all other religions unnecessary. With those beliefs it makes all other religions, except Judaism, religions of man and therefore false. It also makes many of the other Christians denominations and sects, including the Roman Catholic Church false.

Most of us don't want them to be right. So why are they wrong? Why are the Bible stories not literal. Why is there no Satan? Why don't people need to be "saved" in the way Born-again Christians believe people need to be saved? Why don't Baha'is believe that Jesus rose physically from the dead?

I've heard most all the Baha'i answers to these, but with each new thread about Christianity and the Baha'is Faith, I think it is the most important thing to lay right out there... Why don't Baha'is believe the things that those types of Christians believe?

Hi CG.

I think the bottom line is that any religion or any interpretation of religion which doesn’t bring people together in love, fellowship and unity, is not true religion, as even Jesus commanded us to love one another, and in the Bible it says that God is love, that God is no respecter of persons, and that the sun and rain fall upon both the good and bad, not to judge others, that would include religions, lest we be judged, and to be as one body, united.

These are all paraphrased verses from the Bible. So apart from symbolic or literal meanings, there is a very clear exhortation to love others even ones enemies and to be united, yet focus has not been on these foundational issues but rather on very superficial matters such as supremacy and superiority.


To have love and brotherhood amongst humanity is far more important than trivial things like supremacy or superiority, for aren’t we all children of God and He loves us all and not especially one race, religion or nation? Again, God is no respecter of persons and loves us all, so why should we create this imaginary barrier called ‘us and them’ unless we have utterly forgotten the true spirit of Christ was love in essence.? Love for all humankind.?

Do we think that by division into over 40,000 sects this is pleasing to Jesus or God?

This is why Christ had to return, to reestablish love and unity as the foundation of religion not political power, nor supremacy nor superiority, all rather egotistical pursuits not spiritual.

Baha’u’llah reiterated that religion is for love, harmony and fellowship and that any belief which is a cause of disunity, sectarianism, war and so on is not true religion, as religion must cause love and unity.


So when an interpretation leads to prejudice, separation, war and sectarianism, then how can it be correct when Christ promoted love and unity? Surely, if the interpretation contradicts the Bible then the interpreter has clearly erred. And the Bible teaches love and unity. Yet we hear Muhammad or Baha’u’llah are false and ‘we are the greatest”. That’s clearly not the humility Jesus displayed and taught. That’s just how the Jews judged Christ and were they right?


I believe that any interpretation of the Bible which builds bridges, reconciles differences, and unites people from all faiths and races is the true interpretation. Christ did say that one day there would be ‘one fold and one shepherd’ indicating He envisioned all humanity as a family working together harmoniously.

I humbly believe the Bible is a messenger of love, so let’s see and embrace the interpretation which supports Jesus teachings on love and unity and all other divisive interpretations be put aside as they contradict what Jesus lived and died for - love.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I said: "Baha'u'llah wrote 15,000 Tablets, which is the equivalent of many, many Bibles."

I did not say that all the Tablets have been translated into English, but all the original Tablets do exist in Persian and Arabic at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel. As I recall, only about 15% of those Tablets have been translated into English to date.

Number of tablets revealed by Bahá'u'lláh

The Bahai website quotes i showed says it is estimated at 7,160 tablets archived. Many were lost, stolen, or destroyed.

Why is only 15% translated into English? Do you think it should be 100% translated asap?
So where are the 15% translations? Lots more available than whats in the Bahai library link that I showed?
I would like to see them.


Also in regards to the Bahai quote I showed: Do you know how the Guardian and Universal House of Justice decide what texts from Baha'u'llah are significant and useful, and what texts are not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha’u’llah reiterated that religion is for love, harmony and fellowship and that any belief which is a cause of disunity, sectarianism, war and so on is not true religion, as religion must cause love and unity.

That's right....

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

 

[Skywalker]

I see no difference, both the Messenger of the Christians and the Baha'i is from the same One God and as a Baha'i we make no distinction between the Messengers.

I see conversion is just a change in one's frame of reference, I see it is possible to embrace all the Messengers and the Messages given.

As such it is not an us verses them, it is about us embracing each other as one human family under One God.

Regards Tony

Christian morality about no lying, no stealing, pride, greed, sloth, lust, gluttony, wrath, and envy. Christianity is not about following the popes or the priests or the pastors, its about knowing your Creator and Savior.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bahai website quotes i showed says it is estimated at 7,160 tablets archived. Many were lost, stolen, or destroyed.

Why is only 15% translated into English? Do you think it should be 100% translated asap?
So where are the 15% translations? Lots more available than whats in the Bahai library link that I showed?
I would like to see them.

According to my understanding, the reason not all the Writings have been translated is due to lack of funds necessary to translate them carefully and correctly, and this will be done by panels of translators, not just one person.

I do not think that there are any official translations other than what is located in the Baha'i Reference Library online, but there are some provisional translations of Tablets, and some of those are posted on the internet.

Here is something on translations: Translation - Bahai9

I am not that adept on these matters so I do not want to give you incorrect information. @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , and @ loverofhumanity would probably know more than I do.

Also in regards to the Bahai quote I showed: Do you know how the Guardian and Universal House of Justice decide what texts from Baha'u'llah are significant and useful, and what texts are not?

I am not sure, but since the Guardian was proficient in English as well s Persian and Arabic, he probably knew what was contained in all the Tablets, so he chose to translate the ones that we needed most. I don't know how the UHJ makes the determination regarding which of the remaining Tablets have priority for translation.

I have not even read everything that was written by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha that has been translated into English so I am in no hurry to see the rest. Is there something in particular you are interested in reading about?

 

[paarsurrey]

It's their belief. I've talked about that a lot with Trailblazer. It'd be best if she or one of the other Baha'is give you quotes and the reasons why they don't believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. But, related to that, they don't believe in the "body double" switch and that someone else was crucified in place of Jesus. But, like I say, except for some Christians and some Moslems, not believing that is a positive.

So the main point is that Baha'is don't believe the "messages" of the other religions. Some things they change, or what I call "reinterpret". Like everyone uses the "comforter" verses in a different way. The Born-again Christians say that is talking about the Holy Spirit that came on Pentecost. Baha'is say that is a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. That he is the Comforter, and that he is the one that will come and lead us all into the Truth.

All the messages get turned into whatever the new religion wants them to say. They make sense to the people in the new religion. And give reasons to the older religions to say that the new religion is teaching falsehoods and manipulating the "truth" of the Scriptures.

When one gets time, please search and quote as requested in my post #63 .
My Bahai friends here may not quote in a straightforward manner, I understand.
I am interested, please?

Regards