Do you understand Religion, or do you think you understand Religion

[danieldemol]

Not as his name.
Also I think you should check other translations where the Hebrew there is used. Is it I AM?

Well Moses asks God what name, and God replies say "I am" sent you, so unless God's answer was irrelevant to the question, it is reasonable to deduce that "I am" is a name of God

 

[PureX]

Oh, I think I do. Reliable evidence is what enables us to communicate over the Internet.

Functionality, not truth.

It's what has helped us determine that the Earth is indeed a sphere.

Collective opinion, not truth.

It's how we know that many diseases are caused by viruses and not due to being possessed by evil spirits.

Semantics, mostly, leading to increased functionality. Not truth.

If you have examples of how using the 'faith method' has reliably led us to similar truths about the universe, please do share.

First, you have to stop mislabeling biased opinions and relative functionality, "truth".

 

[QuestioningMind]

Functionality, not truth.
Collective opinion, not truth.
Semantics, mostly, leading to increased functionality. Not truth.
First, you have to stop mislabeling biased opinions and relative functionality, "truth".

ROFL... okay, I'll take that as a NO, you can't provide any examples. Thanks for playing!

 

[Quintessence]

I'll take that as a NO, you can't provide any examples.

I mean, it's not hard to provide examples? The sciences themselves rest on non-falsifiable assumptions that are basically taken on faith. I don't say this to be dismissive of the sciences - as someone with a strong science background and who often takes on the role of science advocacy I find it critically important to be aware of the underlying philosophical assumptions of this way of approaching knowledge (see here - Philosophy of science - Wikipedia - for some information about that if anyone is curious). Failure to do so usually results in scientism, an ironically unscientific ideology that has a lot more in common with religious fundamentalism than it does with actual science.

 

[PureX]

ROFL... okay, I'll take that as a NO, you can't provide any examples. Thanks for playing!

I'll take that as an indication that you haven't developed intellectually enough, yet, to have this conversation.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

You seem sure.

Spoiler: Allah

Allah - Wikipedia
Allah (romanized: Allāh) is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religions. In the English language, the word generally refers to God in Islam. The word is thought to be derived by contraction from al-ilāh, which means "the god", and is linguistically related to El (Elohim) and Elah, the Hebrew and Aramaic words for God.

The etymology of the word Allāh has been discussed extensively by classical Arab philologists. Grammarians of the Basra school regarded it as either formed "spontaneously" (murtajal) or as the definite form of lāh (from the verbal root lyh with the meaning of "lofty" or "hidden"). Others held that it was borrowed from Syriac or Hebrew, but most considered it to be derived from a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- "the" and ilāh "deity, god" to al-lāh meaning "the deity", or "the God". The majority of modern scholars subscribe to the latter theory, and view the loanword hypothesis with skepticism.

Why are you sure, as opposed to the others?

Nevertheless...
God is a real God.
The God; is a real God.
Do you see a difference?
The only difference there is, is that one has a definite article, but it still does not identify any God, and is just nugatory.

The problem is the insistence on removing and hiding God's name... as I said earlier.

I seem sure of what exactly? The word "Allah" meaning "The God" can refer to anything, just like "The Truck" can be a nickname for practically anyone or anything as well, but so can Jesus (which has a meaning as well and can refer to any number of people, concepts, or whatever else).

So what you seem sure of is that you know some name of God? You think God has a name? So you not only believe God has a name, but also that the name of God is some specific thing, and that the specific thing you think is God's proper name can't be used to refer to any number of ideas, concepts, individuals, entities, or whatever else? The whole implication is absurd.

Firstly, you have to establish for us and our atheist friends here what is God or a god anyway? Then you have to make it so that whatever that thing is you are talking about as a god has some match up to something that is considered or can be established as real. Then, you have to go further to make it clear how this thing you are talking about has communicated to you and made you certain that there is a proper name for it that should be used exclusively, and like a phone number, no other prayer or plea reaches this God unless its proper calling card is used (which is also not traditionally allowed for YHWH, they call YHWH Adonai and pronounce it Adonai, which simply means Lord, as they are not allowed to utter God's name generally).

You won't likely be able to do any of that, so all you're left doing is bothering this person who prefers calling God "Allah" and saying that "Allah is Real, a Real God"? Why do you want to bother this person? Its probably because you don't like the word Allah, you don't like Muslims or what you have seen and heard of them in the world and on the television and whatever, and you think that Allah is "too vague" somehow by meaning "The God" or "God" (though its unlikely you've complained about other people saying "God" in general and not questioning them about it in a snakey sort of fashion, almost like a bigot), so I'd prefer if you could just come out and be real with people on here and not so passive and cowardly seeming, and come outright and say that you think the word Allah is a bad one to use, that you object to it and would never use it yourself because you think its wrong, or evil, or could refer to anything, even though the Bible uses the terms Elohim and El and Eloah and Illah and all sorts of things, and in the Arabic and other translations uses the word Allah as well throughout, but you don't like it probably right, because you think Muslims are rotten, right?

Well, I'm a stronger and bolder person than you seem to be, so let me pave the way for you by saying that I don't like the Muslims on TV either, and I don't think they are all referring to the same Allah, just like I don't think all people who say God are referring to the same God, and before you get too excited, I don't think everyone who uses the word YHWH or JESUS is referring to the same YHWH and JESUS either, but everyone is carrying in their minds their own ideas and concepts and references. Furthermore, according to the Bible and more clearly the Qur'an, there simply IS NOT OTHER GOD OR ENTITY IN EXISTENCE LIKE GOD, so if one says "The God" it only refers to the Real God that the Qur'an claims is the only one that exists, and going further, The God of the Qur'an encompasses all the other Gods and their powers, as there is only one. So Allah is all of them and One, Allah is the one controlling rain or fire or thunder etc, so Allah is the true Tlaloc, Agni, or Thor, and there is no other according to the Qur'an. Read it for yourself here at www.islamawakened.com/quran .

So what is confusing about that unless you are deliberately trying to make trouble for people and give them a hard time over nothing? YHWH "I am that I am" "I am what I will be" or any translation of it, is much more confusing and meaningless and absurd and wild and even silly to say in a sentence and awkward than it is to say "There is only one God, The God, The One God, there is no Other God but The God, The One God, The is the Definite Article, THE, there is no other, its THE ONE" that is the whole concept of the Qur'an regarding God, so there simply is no other that people can even refer to if they are referring to whatever at all is Ultimate.

Its the way you approached this person, the way you went at them for their statement and bothered them, the way you seem to be concealing your dislike for the term or word Allah, the way you put all these peace symbols around you yet you bother people like that, makes you seem like a sort of snake-like and malicious entity. You have a chance though, to shed your snake-like skin and instead be overt about your feelings and motivations and reveal and expose yourself and just come outright and say that you think Allah is a bad word, an evil name, for an evil false God, if that is what you want to say.

You probably hate Allah as a word more than any other word. Shiva means Auspicious, who do you think that Shiva is according to the Qur'an? God, The God, The One God, Allah, Shiva, and all the rest, there is only One according to the Qur'an there are no others at all, there are no fallen angels pretending to be Gods, there is none of it, and your prayers to the Ultimate God are known and can't be misdirected at all, because God is not an Idiot who needs to be called by some certain name like a phone number. You can call God whatever you want, Dog God, God is the Dog God is God not? Who is my prayer going to be misdirected to? Yet, if my understanding and concept is wrong (which yours probably is pretty messed up since you bothered a person about using the word Allah to refer to The One God) then my prayers are going towards nothing that is real. For example, if I think that some piece of Fabric is literally The God or A God and can help me, or The Moon can help me, then I've got some ridiculous opinion that I'm following which doesn't seem to match up with reality. Yet people can dispute this, and if there is a Judgment Day, then these issues will be resolved there, including my accusation towards you where I accused you of messing around with a person who made an innocent statement due to having animosity towards the term Allah being used and trying to sort of mock it in a sideways and even hypocritical way since that same combination of letters and root and everything appears throughout the Bible as well, and according to the Bible there is really no Real God but The God, Only One, so that if Dagon is a reference to The Real God, and there is only one Real God, then Dagon refers to one and the same One Real Only God.

Or do you object?

What is your concept of God and what is God's name according to you?

Allah is not the Trinity, so if you believe God is Jesus, The Father The Son The Holy Spirit who took the form of Jesus known as the Begotten Son of God, and that is who you call God or whatever name you think is the true name of God, then that is not the same as the Allah of the Qur'an, but the term Allah is used by Trinitarian Christians who speak Arabic and they refer to God using the same term and meaning something different, just like some people don't think Jesus is God but refer to Jesus and are thus referring to a different concept.

 

[firedragon]

I will accept it as a form of religion, but certainly it had its own dogma and rituals. I was in the military for four years, and it most certainly had its own culture (rituals and dogma).


Why do you say that? Were earlier spiritual beliefs absent of rituals?

You didnt understand my post SB. Earlier, religion was not only about spiritual beliefs. It was a generic word religare which meant "a binding". Thats why I took the example of the military. Not exclusively.

It could be a club or even atheism.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Yes, that is exactly how it is.
Like going to the market, and choosing vegetables based on one's preferences.
Then saying, "I like this. Who are you to decide what I like. Go eat your own vegetables."

Don't you think that's sad?

Not really. You're okay to eat whatever vegetables you want. The one prohibition is that you don't treat others in a way you wouldn't want done to you. This appears to be a problem with people. They have a blind spot with regard to their own behavior.

 

[religions archivist]

 

[nPeace]

I seem sure of what exactly? The word "Allah" meaning "The God" can refer to anything, just like "The Truck" can be a nickname for practically anyone or anything as well, but so can Jesus (which has a meaning as well and can refer to any number of people, concepts, or whatever else).

So what you seem sure of is that you know some name of God? You think God has a name? So you not only believe God has a name, but also that the name of God is some specific thing, and that the specific thing you think is God's proper name can't be used to refer to any number of ideas, concepts, individuals, entities, or whatever else? The whole implication is absurd.

Firstly, you have to establish for us and our atheist friends here what is God or a god anyway? Then you have to make it so that whatever that thing is you are talking about as a god has some match up to something that is considered or can be established as real. Then, you have to go further to make it clear how this thing you are talking about has communicated to you and made you certain that there is a proper name for it that should be used exclusively, and like a phone number, no other prayer or plea reaches this God unless its proper calling card is used (which is also not traditionally allowed for YHWH, they call YHWH Adonai and pronounce it Adonai, which simply means Lord, as they are not allowed to utter God's name generally).

You won't likely be able to do any of that, so all you're left doing is bothering this person who prefers calling God "Allah" and saying that "Allah is Real, a Real God"? Why do you want to bother this person? Its probably because you don't like the word Allah, you don't like Muslims or what you have seen and heard of them in the world and on the television and whatever, and you think that Allah is "too vague" somehow by meaning "The God" or "God" (though its unlikely you've complained about other people saying "God" in general and not questioning them about it in a snakey sort of fashion, almost like a bigot), so I'd prefer if you could just come out and be real with people on here and not so passive and cowardly seeming, and come outright and say that you think the word Allah is a bad one to use, that you object to it and would never use it yourself because you think its wrong, or evil, or could refer to anything, even though the Bible uses the terms Elohim and El and Eloah and Illah and all sorts of things, and in the Arabic and other translations uses the word Allah as well throughout, but you don't like it probably right, because you think Muslims are rotten, right?

Well, I'm a stronger and bolder person than you seem to be, so let me pave the way for you by saying that I don't like the Muslims on TV either, and I don't think they are all referring to the same Allah, just like I don't think all people who say God are referring to the same God, and before you get too excited, I don't think everyone who uses the word YHWH or JESUS is referring to the same YHWH and JESUS either, but everyone is carrying in their minds their own ideas and concepts and references. Furthermore, according to the Bible and more clearly the Qur'an, there simply IS NOT OTHER GOD OR ENTITY IN EXISTENCE LIKE GOD, so if one says "The God" it only refers to the Real God that the Qur'an claims is the only one that exists, and going further, The God of the Qur'an encompasses all the other Gods and their powers, as there is only one. So Allah is all of them and One, Allah is the one controlling rain or fire or thunder etc, so Allah is the true Tlaloc, Agni, or Thor, and there is no other according to the Qur'an. Read it for yourself here at www.islamawakened.com/quran .

So what is confusing about that unless you are deliberately trying to make trouble for people and give them a hard time over nothing? YHWH "I am that I am" "I am what I will be" or any translation of it, is much more confusing and meaningless and absurd and wild and even silly to say in a sentence and awkward than it is to say "There is only one God, The God, The One God, there is no Other God but The God, The One God, The is the Definite Article, THE, there is no other, its THE ONE" that is the whole concept of the Qur'an regarding God, so there simply is no other that people can even refer to if they are referring to whatever at all is Ultimate.

Its the way you approached this person, the way you went at them for their statement and bothered them, the way you seem to be concealing your dislike for the term or word Allah, the way you put all these peace symbols around you yet you bother people like that, makes you seem like a sort of snake-like and malicious entity. You have a chance though, to shed your snake-like skin and instead be overt about your feelings and motivations and reveal and expose yourself and just come outright and say that you think Allah is a bad word, an evil name, for an evil false God, if that is what you want to say.

You probably hate Allah as a word more than any other word. Shiva means Auspicious, who do you think that Shiva is according to the Qur'an? God, The God, The One God, Allah, Shiva, and all the rest, there is only One according to the Qur'an there are no others at all, there are no fallen angels pretending to be Gods, there is none of it, and your prayers to the Ultimate God are known and can't be misdirected at all, because God is not an Idiot who needs to be called by some certain name like a phone number. You can call God whatever you want, Dog God, God is the Dog God is God not? Who is my prayer going to be misdirected to? Yet, if my understanding and concept is wrong (which yours probably is pretty messed up since you bothered a person about using the word Allah to refer to The One God) then my prayers are going towards nothing that is real. For example, if I think that some piece of Fabric is literally The God or A God and can help me, or The Moon can help me, then I've got some ridiculous opinion that I'm following which doesn't seem to match up with reality. Yet people can dispute this, and if there is a Judgment Day, then these issues will be resolved there, including my accusation towards you where I accused you of messing around with a person who made an innocent statement due to having animosity towards the term Allah being used and trying to sort of mock it in a sideways and even hypocritical way since that same combination of letters and root and everything appears throughout the Bible as well, and according to the Bible there is really no Real God but The God, Only One, so that if Dagon is a reference to The Real God, and there is only one Real God, then Dagon refers to one and the same One Real Only God.

Or do you object?

What is your concept of God and what is God's name according to you?

Allah is not the Trinity, so if you believe God is Jesus, The Father The Son The Holy Spirit who took the form of Jesus known as the Begotten Son of God, and that is who you call God or whatever name you think is the true name of God, then that is not the same as the Allah of the Qur'an, but the term Allah is used by Trinitarian Christians who speak Arabic and they refer to God using the same term and meaning something different, just like some people don't think Jesus is God but refer to Jesus and are thus referring to a different concept.

I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, nor embarrass anyone.
I apologize for asking a simple question that resulted in the two.
In future, I will know not to ask any Muslims on any forums anything about their God.
Thank you for informing me about supporters of this religion.
It was enlightening.

Do you want any of your questions here answered?

 

[nPeace]

Not really. You're okay to eat whatever vegetables you want. The one prohibition is that you don't treat others in a way you wouldn't want done to you. This appears to be a problem with people. They have a blind spot with regard to their own behavior.

I'm sorry. If this is how people respond to questions about their views, I could only image how they respond to statements about their views.
I read it in the news, but now I am seeing it first hand.
I think you guys are in for a treat, but I'm sure it's not vegetables.

Someone said God is a real God, and I asked what that means to them, and I am a bad boy?
Okay then.

 

[nPeace]

Sorry I can't share.

 

[nPeace]

Well Moses asks God what name, and God replies say "I am" sent you, so unless God's answer was irrelevant to the question, it is reasonable to deduce that "I am" is a name of God

Believe what you prefer, if it makes you happy.
I have no interest in this ... argument.

 

[MNoBody]

Well Moses asks God what name, and God replies say "I am" sent you, so unless God's answer was irrelevant to the question, it is reasonable to deduce that "I am" is a name of God

there is no weh in hebrew
Yahuah is apparently the original pronunciation ...before it was changed in the text into Lord and God, both names of pagan deities

 

[icehorse]

I would say that faith is the ONLY pathway to truth. At least to the only truth that we humans will ever get. Everything else is just a matter of relative functionality.

When I read this I somehow leapt to the question: are you - to some degree - equating "faith" with "values" ?

For example, I value the golden rule. I wouldn't say I have faith in it.

 

[PureX]

When I read this I somehow leapt to the question: are you - to some degree - equating "faith" with "values" ?

For example, I value the golden rule. I wouldn't say I have faith in it.

Humans are complicated. We are capable of holding more than one concept of reality at a time, even when they contradict each other. It's because we live in an environment of relative truthfulness, as opposed to actual truth. Yet we want desperately to believe that we know the actual truth. This generates a lot of paradox, confusion, and internal dissonance.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, nor embarrass anyone.
I apologize for asking a simple question that resulted in the two.
In future, I will know not to ask any Muslims on any forums anything about their God.
Thank you for informing me about supporters of this religion.
It was enlightening.

Do you want any of your questions here answered?

You come off as a passive-aggressive type. Why can't you write like a person who isn't trying to slide in insults or mock people for their simple statements? What do Muslims have to do with anything or you claiming passive-aggressively that you can't ask Muslims about their religion or their God? You didn't ask anything, you just started bothering a person about their using the term Allah to refer to God because you're probably seething with hatred inside and it was not difficult to identify it even through your text. You find Muslims wrong and bad most likely, and you're too cowardly to come out and say it directly and make your objections, probably because they are arbitrary and bigoted and petty anyway (which is fine by me, I don't like Muslims for their looks mainly on the television, but I'm not a chicken who can't say what I think and instead bother people with under-handed comments and remarks).

So lets try again and begin the process of training your behavior to not be so cowardly, because it makes you appear rather disgusting, so come out and say what your real problem is. Your problem is that you hate the word Allah being used, you think God's name is YHWH because that is what you read in the Bible, and when someone else says Allah it causes you some kind of cringe reaction inside and you can't help but try to bother the person about it and suggest that they could be worshipping anything because it only means "The God" supposedly and God apparently has no idea when people mean to be calling upon God or not, right? You would prefer they say "Jehovah" who the Mormons say is a bodily man born of parents for example, so that is a different concept from other Christians but they use the same word. Your argument and objection is based on nothing and is totally senseless. YHWH could well have been inserted into the scripture to cover up some other name. Turn the Hebrew YHWH written in Hebrew upside down and it looks a whole lot like Allah written right side up. Turn it in other directions and it looks like a version of Om and then again like a version of Tao a bit scrambled. Just shapes, and you have no way verification that YHWH is any name of God at all except that you prefer the Bible and believe in it, and that you dislike Islam and Muslims and disbelieve in it, right?

So if God is with you, YHWH stands behind you, then why act like a passive coward type? Why don't you just come out and say what you are certain of or think is right and true, do you fear men? Do you fear Muslims? Why? So have faith in YHWH and don't claim to be a peacemaker rather than a divider. Its dividing to say that Dagon differs from El and El differs from Allah and Allah differs from YHWH, right? Your whole purpose was to say something divisive and to say that the Muslims by preferring the term Allah for God are distinguished and set apart from those who utter the name YHWH or say "Jehovah" and think they are better for it. Even YHWH has a supposed meaning and that meaning is mentioned in the wikipedia article you can read, and it also makes little sense as a name, and furthermore gives the impression to some that YHWH is one particular god among many others, which is why people thought the Israelites may have been henotheistic rather than monotheistic, whereas there is no other God in Islam than The God, so saying The God is not non-sensical or misleading for them, as there is no other God anyway, its just God, there is no other, so you can call God whatever, and if God answers, there is no other entity which can answer prayers or do anything.

Why do you think your comments come off so badly though? Go ahead and review how you write and why it might disturb a person and appear like underhanded remarks where you're not getting to the real point of how you despise the word Allah and prefer Jehovah instead, probably pronouncing it entirely incorrectly as well.

 

[icehorse]

Humans are complicated. We are capable of holding more than one concept of reality at a time, even when they contradict each other. It's because we live in an environment of relative truthfulness, as opposed to actual truth. Yet we want desperately to believe that we know the actual truth. This generates a lot of paradox, confusion, and internal dissonance.

So where does faith come in to that? And how does that address the question of values?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I'm sorry. If this is how people respond to questions about their views, I could only image how they respond to statements about their views.
I read it in the news, but now I am seeing it first hand.
I think you guys are in for a treat, but I'm sure it's not vegetables.

Someone said God is a real God, and I asked what that means to them, and I am a bad boy?
Okay then.

Come on, embrace it, rev up that motorcycle. What have you read on the news? You think I'm representing Muslims? I'm absolutely not. Read carefully. The Muslims here were actually very pleasant with you, despite your rudeness. I'm the one who called you out on your behavior and how you appear, and I have nothing to do with mainstream Islam or Muslims, nor would I be considered one by them, so why do you keep claiming "Oh the news media shows them as evil and bad and now look how evil and bad they are" they didn't say jack squat to you about how you're behaving. The people talking to you are all outside of mainstream Islam, there are Atheists talking to you (probably seen something about them on your news channel too?) and others. The Muslims were nice to you, I'm the one saying you're acting like a slithery person with bothering them about their use of the word Allah because you despise that anyone should use that word. Why can't you face your own prejudice and hatred and admit to it and how it leads you on and motivates your actions and comments? What I hate, which is how you behaved and continued to behave and how you became even nastier as you progressed, is what I called out, I think its rotten behavior for a website that is about learning about things and cross religious dialogue and whatever or at the very least being real, being honest, coming out and saying your part honestly, not in these cryptic underhanded ways or like a coward who fears being direct, just be direct with them or me, and don't accuse me or jumble me up with the Muslims, you're dealing with a whole other type of animal with me. Everyone who identifies as a mainstream Muslim has been gentle and decent with you, and everyone who questioned you about your sneaky way of bothering people for saying "Allah" or whatever else, or questioned your preference for the term YHWH instead while bothering people for saying Allah, have not been mainstream Muslims at all or even necessarily religious people or belonging to any organized religions.

What do you identify with, a Christian, a Jew? Lets explore where your hostility comes from? My hostility comes from a lack of sexual intercourse, it comes from sexual frustration, and despising seeing a nice and gentle fellow get sort of underhandedly mocked for simply trying to share their feelings about God or the word Allah that they like using, and you try to use my hatred for how you pinpointed and picked on them for that as something to do with Muslim stereotypes you saw on the News now? Wrong again bucko! Why isn't YHWH guiding you on how to behave and how not to make incorrect implications and accusations hm? Could it be that you're simply a bigot? You won't admit to it though. I'll have to admit to it, I'm a bigot, I'm prejudiced against Muslims and their depictions and cultures which are Islamic. Your turn. Too chicken still? How is it that I can get away with being honest but you're too scared to come out about anything? YHWH certainly knows what you hold in your heart and your animosity, do you fear Dagon? I'm going to tell YHWH (who already knows) that you must be a chicken about Dagon and Dagon's followers because you can't just come outright and say you think that Allah is a false name for No God at all and YHWH is the only right name anyone can use, right? I'm telling!

So come on! Get bold! Get that viking blood boiling in you and tell me about how there is no God but YHWH, and no name appropriate but Jehovah, and that no prayer is answered except if someone says Jehovah, and how you disdain that any other name should be spoken of fondly by these idolaters!

 

[PureX]

So where does faith come in to that? And how does that address the question of values?

Faith is the way forward when we finally accept that we do not know, and never will know "the truth". This is why I say it's as close to the truth as we're ever going to get.