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If you see a miracle, will you then believe?

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
That's your miracle? :facepalm:

Do you understand that "miracle" is often used as a euphemism for a rare, unexpected, fortunate event? Someone saying "it's a miracle!" doesn't necessarily mean that they believe that God must have caused it directly.

A miracle means a miracle except if you want it to mean something else,
some will treat it as a message, others won't.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
You mean the God who orders humans should be divided in castes at birth, or the god that says all humans are equal at birth?

Is classifying humans vs. not classifying them, just a different face of the same god?

ciao

- viole
No ordering/directing/controlling from God of our ideas, cultures, inventions as far as I know -- God has given us real autonomy, genuine 'free will'. A full freedom. He calls to us to do what is good -- "love your neighbor as yourself" (as if your own self!) -- but we tend to turn to our own ways, like prejudices for instance, or outright harms to others for seeming gain, though still we have that occasional turning towards His ways of "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." Which is a step towards Him.

We do all manner of things with our freedom of thought/action, so many ways to do good or ill to others.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
On the evidence you outline, I'll be nowhere near ready to accept that your Someone is speaking accurate statements about reality.

What real being is the word "god" intended to denote here?

Where may this real being be observed and examined?

What real state is the word "afterlife" intended to denote?

Where may this "afterlife" condition be presently observed and examined?

Is the claimed healing of the blind person credibly authenticated? Exactly what part of the healing process is unexplained? Is it proposed that if science / medicine is presently unable to duplicate that healing process, the process is literally miraculous? If so, that argument is fallacious.

If the claimed healing is authenticated, what quality does the being who effected the healing possess that qualifies [him] as a "god", as distinct from a being whose science / medicine is in advance of ours?

That's to say, these are not questions of believing, but of understanding.

If we can't observe and examine God, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
Can we observe and examine what was before the big bang?
why not believing that afterlife will be similar to the case of ambiguity of this universe?
If we have all the answers then you can remove God from the equation.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
A miracle means a miracle except if you want it to mean something else,
some will treat it as a message, others won't.
If all a miracle is to you is a thing you've decided to assume was done by God, why would you think that your "miracles" should be proof to someone else?

I mean, even when we were talking about a hypothetical scenario that you invented - a scenario where you could make it as clear a case for your God as you want - you couldn't answer basic questions like "how would we know the event happened as described?" and "how would we know it was caused by God and not something else?"

Do you still think that a "miracle" would be proof of God?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we can't observe and examine God, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
If we have no idea what real thing is intended to be denoted by the word "God" then when we say "God" (meaning a non-imaginary god, a god with objective existence) we have no idea what we're talking about.
Can we observe and examine what was before the big bang?
Not in our present state of knowledge; but we know why we can't (namely that the idea of the Big Bang includes a singularity, that is, the compression of all the matter and energy in the universe into a staggeringly tiny space, so hot that it becomes a barrier to the passing of information from any hypothetical earlier to our universe). If the afterlife is real, why can't we observe it?
why not believing that afterlife will be similar to the case of ambiguity of this universe?
I see no parallel. The world external to the self is reality, nature, the realm of the physical sciences. Within the self, any concept without a counterpart in that world exists only as a concept or thing imagined in that particular brain.
If we have all the answers then you can remove God from the equation.
As I said, since we don't know what (if any) real thing we intend to denote when we say "God", there's nothing real to remove from the equation.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
No ordering/directing/controlling from God of our ideas, cultures, inventions as far as I know -- God has given us real autonomy, genuine 'free will'. A full freedom. He calls to us to do what is good -- "love your neighbor as yourself" (as if your own self!) -- but we tend to turn to our own ways, like prejudices for instance, or outright harms to others for seeming gain, though still we have that occasional turning towards His ways of "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you." Which is a step towards Him.

We do all manner of things with our freedom of thought/action, so many ways to do good or ill to others.
Loving your neighbors, does not exclude hating who is not your neighbor.

And that is why genocide was allowed, or even promoted, and you could enslave people not belonging to your racial group.

iow, your neighbor was safe, the rest could be killed and enslaved at will.

ciao

- viole
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
If someone came to you and told you that God exists and you should follow
some instructions in order to be safe in the afterlife, and if it happened that you
asked him for a proof for God's existence and he showed you one such as
healing a blind man and letting him to see.

Will you believe that God exists if you know that the miracle was real or you'll still disbelieve?
Now, I say this as a theist, but the two don't follow. Making someone see does not compare with proving we will be safe in the afterlife, especially when God brags that we should fear Him because unlike others, He can kill souls. His inability to avoid bragging reveals He can off you at any time and His promise of eternal safety is a lie.

We're told not to go after people who try to change the law and tell us to worship others gods, miracle or no.
Yeah. I don't see FearGod suddenly worshiping Ra or whatever because the Egyptian priests also did miracles.

miracles, are no proof on their own, just a display of power.
Even Jesus chides others for focusing on miracles instead of just living.

The creator of the universe.
Older texts reveal it can't be El or Yahweh because They stem from the universe sorta. El is like Cronus, having been born when Earth mated with the Sky. Yahweh is either Son or Son in Law of El, meaning He, too, was born.

Will you believe in God if all are loving and all are good?
God in the bible says He hates. Does that invalidate His claim, then?

My reply was "Why I have to believe if I know it was fake"
How I should say it in English as to be more clear?
"Why would I believe it if I knew it was fake?"

If God can't be seen but he showed you his power, you still won't believe, right
How to differentiate an unseen force from gravity or the wind?

Do you see the electromagnetic waves?
Never played with magnets and iron filings?

Besides, other animals can see them. What is magic to you is simply nature to them.

No, it is not enough to show this miracle. But, if I investigate about this person, and found that he is a righteous and upright person, has wisdom above regular human, and has great teachings for betterment, and is also willing to sacrifice his own life for humanity, then I believe him. But if someone just shows miracles, and is not righteous and does not have good teachings, then I don't believe him.
Tricks are tricks, though. It doesn't matter who's doing it.

blind man? Nope, that is boring. but having an amputee growing a new arm might impress me.
The only thing I'd be interested in is how it was done, since I know other creatures can regenerate. It would just seem to me like someone did some genetic tinkering.

Is classifying humans vs. not classifying them, just a different face of the same god?
I guess hypocrisy isn't excluded from god concepts. :)

Yahweh's like a politician: tells you what you want to hear to be elected and then does whatever He wants after the inauguration. :)

Then explain what was before the big bang?
Likely a dying universe. History can be cyclical.

My assumption that he's healed by no method
There has to be a method, otherwise it wouldn't be done.

Let's say I witness a true miracle and Yahweh claims credit. The next day I witness another true miracle and Vishnu claims credit. Should I not accept Them both?

That's the material world. God isn't.
That's what religious leaders told people when asked to define God.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If all a miracle is to you is a thing you've decided to assume was done by God, why would you think that your "miracles" should be proof to someone else?

I mean, even when we were talking about a hypothetical scenario that you invented - a scenario where you could make it as clear a case for your God as you want - you couldn't answer basic questions like "how would we know the event happened as described?" and "how would we know it was caused by God and not something else?"

Do you still think that a "miracle" would be proof of God?

If not explainable by science then it's a miracle.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If we have no idea what real thing is intended to be denoted by the word "God" then when we say "God" (meaning a non-imaginary god, a god with objective existence) we have no idea what we're talking about.
Not in our present state of knowledge; but we know why we can't (namely that the idea of the Big Bang includes a singularity, that is, the compression of all the matter and energy in the universe into a staggeringly tiny space, so hot that it becomes a barrier to the passing of information from any hypothetical earlier to our universe). If the afterlife is real, why can't we observe it?
I see no parallel. The world external to the self is reality, nature, the realm of the physical sciences. Within the self, any concept without a counterpart in that world exists only as a concept or thing imagined in that particular brain.
As I said, since we don't know what (if any) real thing we intend to denote when we say "God", there's nothing real to remove from the equation.

The unknown or God, regardless of what you call it, then you can't exclude God or the unknown
from the equation, you don't know what was before the singularity, you may call it X, the unknown
or God, the messengers delivered the message to humans, God did it.

We have science and we have all the earthly materials, why we can't create life from
the non living matter, why we can't find a scientific method that enable humans to
live 200 years in healthy way, why we have to be fixed in living around 100 years
and some less or more, why and why and why and endless of whys.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Life is about LIVING!! Concentrate on that. Don't worry about what happens after death. It will be Glorious for everybody.
Indeed. Reading about ancient people eating lunch won't fill your belly.

What is consciousness in the material world?
The totality of the signals going off in your brain. For the plant world and creatures without brains, maybe there are similar setups, but consciousness is physical because with electromagnetic waves, chemicals, suggestion, etc, I can play a brain like a fiddle.

Many cases? Name one. Give details.
Yeah. I was a nurse for ten years. I LOVE picking apart medical miracle stories.

Earth was formed 4.5 billions years ago, no life existed during the formation of the planet,
how life and consciousness formed from the stones of earth(no life)?
Do you listen to the Hovinds? I only ask this because they always whine about how atheists think that humans came from rocks (which is silly, since YEC's think humans came from dirt, which is COMPLETELY different). Anyway, we didn't come from rocks. Or dirt. Our species came from previous related species, on back until you get to some floating amino acids somewhere. It's about chemistry and how atoms can merge to form molecules and how molecules can merge with other molecules and eventually you get amino acids then RNA and then DNA, etc.

If there's a creator then he's the same God regardless of what people believe.
Polytheists, though, can have multiple creator gods. Some create this. Some create that. It's not an objective law of nature there can only be one.

When you believe that things just happened to be so, no plan, no design,
no science but only just unplanned circumstances caused it, then that is what magic is.
Magic, IIRC, is about planning circumstances. Why do spells if you don't want reality to go your way?

A person who is righteous, does not lie!
There's the rub, though. How can you determine if they are?

were you a product of unplanned circumstances
A lot of people were products of unplanned circumstances, especially if they lacked good sex education.

Why should "a planner be involved in the equation?"
This is a planner shocked some kids ate a fruit. If there was a planner like in the bible, He isn't very good at it. He didn't even realize Adam would need a human female to reproduce until much later.

So you believe it was due unplanned circumstances and that is magic.
I was watching a Religion for Breakfast video on youtube where they show Jesus in art where he is clearly waving a magic wand to do his miracles. FYI.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
A miracle means a miracle except if you want it to mean something else,
some will treat it as a message, others won't.
What do you mean by miracle?

They sound like "God Changing His Mind" about basic reality to me. I can't believe in such a changeable god image.

The God I believe in is Perfect, Eternal, and Changeless. The Ground of Being. Not just some dude who can be manipulated by puny humans.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The unknown or God, regardless of what you call it, then you can't exclude God or the unknown
from the equation, you don't know what was before the singularity, you may call it X, the unknown
or God, the messengers delivered the message to humans, God did it.

We have science and we have all the earthly materials, why we can't create life from
the non living matter, why we can't find a scientific method that enable humans to
live 200 years in healthy way, why we have to be fixed in living around 100 years
and some less or more, why and why and why and endless of whys.

Why can't we explain lightening and earthquakes? Why can't we cure infections? Why can't we....

Oh wait.
Tom
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
Yes. Visible light is an electromagnic wave.

We literally don't see anything but electromagnetic waves.
and of that, only a very narrow bandwidth
the old texts I have read through have had many statements about how people ought not to trust so implicitly in the evidence of the eyes, since they are so "selective" and limited in what is observed, in what registers.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
a 'miracle' would be say someone who actually "died"....poke em in the eyeballs they still don't twitch dead...and they somehow "recover'....which apparently....does happen.
not often.... hence the word "miracle' which implies irregular, not to be expected...surprise.
And of course, if there are only a few who witness it, or no-one else, then who would accept it....particularly if those have some bias against such ideas for some reason to begin with.
recipients of such "interventions", let's call it "divine largess", would be shocked, and perhaps grateful...perhaps not.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Turns out his example wasn't even that much of a miracle story; it was just a video on an aggregator site about someone who survived serious burns. The headline had the word "miracle" in it, which was apparently all the evidence @FearGod needed.

Doctors said it was a miracle that he's alive.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Yeah. I was a nurse for ten years. I LOVE picking apart medical miracle stories.
Wouldn't it be nice if a demonstrably miraculous medical healing occurred?

Suppose some hero launched into a burning building to save some kid he didn't even know. He saves the child, but gets terribly burned and loses an arm.
A staunch Christian, he prays(along with other Christians across the country, globe even.)

A good miracle would be God replacing his skin and arm. But, as we all know, that never happens.
Tom
 
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