Brian2
Veteran Member
OK, I kind of think I know where you're coming from. But according to John 1:1 there were TWO (not three) persons, one with the other. You can say no, there were always the godhead, or three persons, but that is not what it says.
As I said, John is speaking about Jesus and His origins and so I don't expect a Holy Spirit to be mentioned. Even the WT tells us that the angels were there at the beginning of the creation of this universe (not that I agree with that since the Bible does not tell us that) and the angels aren't mentioned at John 1:1 so does that mean they weren't there?
All things that were made having been made by means of the Word, or Son, does not mean that the Son did not come from the Father. Obviously the Father does not come from a son.
All things having been made/created/brought into being by the Word does mean that the Word was not made/created/brought into being. The Church in one of it's creeds has said that the Son was "born of the Father before time began, God from God, light from light, true God from true God". I guess the "before time began" means that this happened in the days of everlasting, in eternity, which is what Micah 5:2 is meant to mean because of it's sort of saying this 2, and that extends the time to eternity. (not that there was an eternity of time into the past or we could not be here at this time yet if we see time as linear).
Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
Meanwhile there were two "in the beginning." These two were there "in the beginning." It was in the beginning of something. They were there before that. Just as it takes time for a (normal) baby to start pronouncing words that make sense. The Word (or Logos) is considered a person next to God. Words come out of someone's mouth. Therefore...however you want to look at it.
A son does come from a father and that is why the Father is the only true God and why the son is the real Son, not a created one like us, and why the Son submits to the Father even if He is equal in nature. The Son having brought all things into existence is not something that has been brought into existence and so I would not have said "born from the Father before time began". I would say that the Son has been with and in the Father always. The Son did not have to be born from the Father. The words that God spoke have been in God and express what God is, just as the Bible tells us what God is and the Son is the perfect expression of what God is. But when the Son was conceived and born in a similar way that humans and animals do it, He was conceived and born as a man.
Heb 1 seems to be about showing us who the Son is and what He is in contrast to who and what angels are. The Son was not a created angel (messenger) even if the Son has been a messenger of God in the OT and has even been identified as being God in those places where that has happened.