1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Oeste, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Here is one artist's rendition of the trinity:
    The Trinity in art - Wikipedia
    One of the "persons" depicted as a dove. So is the holy spirit a dove in heaven?
    And just look, which of the two people like beings has a beard? Is it the son?
    Just imagine -- I mean that's what you believe. Three persons, separate and distinct -- each without a beginning. Just there. No beginning for any of the three. :)
    If that's what you believe and you want to stick with it, all I can say is, that's your belief and you're sticking to it. :) But there is simply nothing, absolutely nothing that the Bible says in any case to confirm that thought. None whatsoever. But if you want to believe it -- it's been interesting talking to you.
     
  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    If you love God, you show others about Him. Like Jesus had disciples. His disciples were taught and passed on their knowledge. If those who understood things kept quiet, as Jesus said, the stones would cry out. Now what would they cry out about? Either this world is going to be done away with, or it is not. Either Jesus is the son of God with great power given to him, or he is not. Either people will be mercilessly tortured forever or they will not. And so on...
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes that is what I am saying. The Son received life from the Father and has always been with and in His Father and was born as a human when He was born. But even being born as a human did not mean that Jesus lost His Divine nature. Why do you think that I am saying that the Son is the Father?
    In the OT the one who inherits the nations is the Son (Psalm 2:8) and is also Yahweh (Psalm 82:8). The Son is Yahweh but the Son is not the Father.
    If the Father possesses the Son then it is the same way that we possess our heart.
    The Son is subject to His Father's will because He is the Son of His Father. The Father has exalted His Son by showing everyone that the Son is also Yahweh and by giving the ruler and Lord of creation and Kingship over His Kingdom. At the end of course after salvation work is fully ended, Jesus again becomes subordinate to His Father even though He remains Lord and King forever.

    One authority, one will, one existence, I can agree with that,,,,,,,,,,but you probably mean it in a different way than I understand it.
    When it comes to The Word having an origin, I suppose you men an origin in time,,,,,,,,,,,,,but time had a beginning at the beginning, when creation began.
    So when we find out that the Word/the Son was with God in the beginning, it means that the Word has always been with God and has always been qualitatively God,,,,,,,,,,,,,one God with His Father, the one who gives Him life.

    I don't say that the Son is the Father.

    No my earthly father was not a father before he was a father. We are time bound and God is the I AM just as Jesus is the I AM. God does not change and has not changed, just as Jesus does not change and has not changed. God has always known what He would do in time and so God has always been a judge and anything else He is.
    Nobody is like God who is not God according to God, BUT Jesus is exactly like God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    There are different aspects, and different viewpoints of theologians of various theologies. And by that, I am speaking of various theologies such as: literal destruction of the earth and replacing it literally with a "new earth," (same with heaven), vs. understanding the meaning as not making a literal planet again, Jesus coming so "every eye" can see Him, some think they will literally be whisked away to heaven while there are others "left behind" to be destroyed vs. seeing his power and hand in the matter when this world comes to its end, and etc.Aren't you grateful that this world as it exists will be done away with?
    And that is not to leave out the rather famous trinitarian theologians that thought Michael referred to Jesus. So while many may agree that "God" is a triune combination of three persons always in existence, there are others that do not. As we know, Michael Servetus was horribly put to death for daring to expose his thoughts about that. God is one God taken into context, Jehovah is not other gods the Israelites turned to and incurred the true God's wrath, and the nations around them were also worshipping false gods. Jesus is rightfully called a god because of his great and unassailable power, wisdom, and glory he has been given BY God, His Father.
    And then there are those called gods that are not in harmony with the only true God that Jesus mentioned.
     
  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why not? It says the Word was with God. You say John is speaking about Jesus and his origins? (Really?)
     
  6. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Doesn't make sense. One of the three persons, equal to the other two, took on flesh but remained aGodperson equal to the other two? No, sorry, don't see it. (Because it's not there...)
     
  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    6,057
    Ratings:
    +312
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    Humans, alive and writers of books. Researchers, theists, as humans living as humans.

    All claiming via variations to thinking "I know where we came from".

    Science says it for a resource, for their machines and their inventions.

    Humans say it for human survival reasoning.

    Bible, a written contradiction that when read, God is God and then God destroys you.

    So any human with use of common sense would claim, if God can destroy you, what does a human do wrong to have God destroy you. Common sense.

    The only powerful human is a scientist with a machine.

    So then a common sense human would ask, did humans do science before.

    Archaeology and building evidence says yes, they did.

    Then you look at where the claim for Jesus as a recording is......in the clouds.

    So then humans can say, see Jesus is seen in the clouds, and it is about death.

    Then you think about what lived before our modern day life, after the ICE AGE. A condition on Earth that was not previous until it occurred. And it was dinosaurs.

    You look at clouds and then see images of dinosaurs in the same clouds.

    Modern times, you see the images of modern day animals also, in clouds.

    Phenomena listing, huge. UFO EVENT. Everyone says look at the strange evil Satanic forms of attacks on the animal bodies. Humans own a various listing of very strange attacks also.

    How is the evidence not evident?

    Then when you ask the story teller, story, Bible please advise me what occurred?

    The story says. Space a womb is the Holy body owning every diverse presence in the cosmos that you can see. One body only owns it space.

    So science can only quote that space is one body, and only owns one condition.

    Yet science tries to preach to us, as a con that space owns 2 conditions, when space is only ONE body.

    So they called space a WOMB, said it owned all bodies historically by an Immaculate claim.

    Law of science relativity written after self evident life attacked, said space is a mystery, the actual law advice.

    Egotism in human male groups says otherwise.

    Even claiming and I know that eternal means infinite. When eternal is one word meaning and infinite is also one word meaning.

    Then the false prophets, maths being the prophecy, for maths only exists expressed in human life says.....and eternal is what you get with Jesus.

    And we say, but Jesus died sacrificed. Yes that is right, when humans die sacrificed they get the eternal.

    A spiritual human quotes that theme as always had existed, spirit living in the eternal. When we die we still all own our highest spirit from which we got released, the eternal. So we all say, yes we believe that when we die we get to be the eternal.

    Then you realise, oh our brother wanted in science the eternal form. But it is not in creation. Then you realise he would sacrifice all life by science in the want of the eternal. Claiming, which I heard his confession in AI quote, that he can resource the power of a human quoting we are God in human form.

    When the documents as law of relativity said no man is God. Man and woMan.

    Therefore is space only owns what is created and it formed Immaculately, then no scientist is any Creator of God is he!
     
  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why do you say "And so much for equals"? The Father and Son have the same nature since one is the Father and the other is His Son. The Son is not only subordinate to the will of the Father but also as a man now the Son has a God, His Father, who became His God when He became a man. (Psalm 22:10) "From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God."
    It would be good if you could give an answer to Biblical teachings and to the actual teachings of the Trinity doctrine instead of setting up a straw man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which you may even be doing without realising it of course.
     
  9. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Human generation is rather different than that which comes from the Father and Son. Of course, Adam and Eve were created as adults. Their children were not made in the same way they were.
     
  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Unfortunately I cannot read everything you write due to lack of time. So please forgive me for that, sorry. Here is what I wrote that you are responding to:
    I wrote, --
    "Let's see if you think there's no beginning to the following:
    John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give
    eternal life to all those you have given him.
    So much in that sentence, isn't there? Not only did God grant the Son authority -- (imagine that) but the Son can give what?? ETERNAL LIFE to all those that GOD the FATHER GAVE THE SON. What a mind-opener. The Son can give ETERNAL LIFE to those that GOD gave him. Want to say they had eternal life when they were born? Come on, let us know it's all fixed from no beginning, ok? And so much for equals."

    First of all, Jesus said that God, his Father, granted him authority over all people in order to give them eternal life to all those God (his Father) allowed him to. "all those you have given him." To me, that is not born or inherent equality. And it is restricted to that which God, his Father, gave him. As the scriptures say, unlike Satan the Devil, Jesus did not grab equality as Satan did with Adam.
    As for the main point I was trying to bring out, Jesus was given the opportunity to grant eternal life to others. That means that eternal does not mean 'no beginning.'
    So two points here. One is that the Son was granted the privilege of giving eternal life to those that God gave him. The second is that eternal does not mean from no beginning to no end. Eternal means no dying in that sense.
     
  11. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1,400
    Ratings:
    +424
    Religion:
    Christian
    Correct. The dated, informal or colloquial usage simply means an indefinite period of time. “Her eternal blabbering put me on edge.” But we’re referring to scripture and not informal English. I don’t see how you retrofit such a meaning into Koine Greek.

    Eternal Father means just that, eternal… no beginning or end.



    But what does the NWT say? Does it mention "eternal" at all? No it doesn't, does it?

    These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)​

    Apparently you disagree with the WT's rendering of this verse. I happen to think it's pretty good. That's a switch, ain't it? o_O

    Please ask one of your fellow JW's if they would agree with you that "eternal" is a better translation than "everlasting" here. Then ask them why they feel "everlasting" is better than "eternal". :)

    I also happen to like the following translation from the King James and Young's Literal:

    1. So they will go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (KJV)

    2. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)

    Remember: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Any life or punishment we receive comes from Jesus, our eternal King.


    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "doomed or saved before you were born".

    I never understood why some folk think things are "fixed" once they learn God knows the future. Perhaps you can answer this for me:

    Jesus prophetically tells Peter "Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times."​

    Since Jesus knows the future and since he doesn't lie, do you believe the "fix" was in for Peter? Can Peter now say he was forced to betray Jesus because God gave him no other choice?

    Of course, the person who brings life has always lived. This is no short term life, like "life of the party", but the eternal source of life. He is not only our source of eternal life but the source of everlasting punishment. Remember, vengeance, judgment, retribution as well as life are His alone to bequeath.

    This may help you understand "eternal" a bit more:

    The Bible answers that God did not have a beginning. God has always existed. As difficult as the concept of God’s eternity is to grasp, we cannot dismiss the idea simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010491

    Or perhaps this:

    ETERNITY—what would you say it is? Do you think time could really go on forever? Well, there is no question that time stretches forever into the past. So why not forever into the future? Indeed, the New World Translation of the Bible refers to God as being praised “from time indefinite even to time indefinite.” (Psalm 41:13) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1996243#h=35

    I could write a lot more about this (Greek Aion/Hebrew olam) but I have very little time and a deadline I have to meet this week. It's also very late, I'm tired and I have an appointment with my pillow. :)
     
  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Speaking of the word eternal or everlasting, I do see the following in regard to the word everlasting at Genesis 17:19:
    "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac;and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
    There's no way everlasting there means 'no beginning.' No end, yes. But not no beginning.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    8,051
    Ratings:
    +1,268
    Religion:
    Christian
    Was it John Calvin that taught one's fate (destiny) is sealed from conception or maybe before conception? I mean it's "eternal" burning in hell or "eternal" bliss in heaven, right from conception I suppose. Or before. What do you feel about that?
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    God has known the fate of everyone from before they were born, and God has ordained the salvation of those who will be saved.
    Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,…
    God knows the future and what He sees and does not change is what He has ordained imo.
    Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
    How do you see these passages?
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    Does it have to mean "no beginning"? It does not say "eternal covenant".
    I could use a WT argument and say that the Covenant existed in the mind of God from eternity past, as the WT uses with the places in the scripture that tell us of people living after death and the WT saying it is in the mind of God, (eg Matt 10:28, Luke 20:38) but it is not a scripturally sound argument imo. It would mean that nothing had a beginning, just as the WT argument about a soul not being killed at the death of the body means that nothing, including the body, ever dies, because God remembers it.
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    There is no problem trinity wise with John 17:2. The Son is the Son and submits to His Father's will always and receives all things from His Father. Jesus is the one who gives life to those He gives it to. This makes Jesus our Father, our Eternal Father because He had not beginning. (He existed in the beginning-----before time began)
    The equality is in many ways between the Father and Son since the Son is exactly like the Father (see Heb 1:1-3 for example), and this equality is also in the God nature that Jesus has. That is what makes Jesus the Son of God who was never brought into existence. (see John 1:3)
    What makes you think that Satan grabbed equality with God? Or are you saying that Satan grabbed equality with Adam? I thought Satan became the god of this world.
    But Jesus was able to grab equality since He was in the form of God. No little spirit could do that. Being disobedient is not grabbing equality with God unless that equality existed in all other areas already and disobedience was just a way of pushing that with His Father. "Hey dad, I'm equal with you and so I'm not going to now become a servant and a human,,,,,,,,,,,I'm staying here and ruling with you."
    The life that we are given as Christians is eternal life because it goes on forever into the future and because it is life from God and so has been around forever. But also because it is life from God, this is the reason that theologians say "Eternal Life" denotes not just a length of time but also the quality of that life.
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    Do you think that the prehuman Jesus, who was not brought into existence ever (John 1:3) and so was the Divine Son of God (meaning He has the same nature as His Father) was not the Divine Son of God when He became a man?
    Jesus was equal in nature to His Father when He became a man if He was that before becoming a man.
    It actually is there that the Word never came into existence. (John 1:3) It is there also that Jesus is Yahweh.
     
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    Why not? Because the Holy Spirit is not the topic of John 1:1. The other Gospels approach the origins of Jesus from other angles but John does it in an absolute way and tells us that He was already there at the beginning and that He did not come into existence.
    I never get an answer when I approach the topic of never ending time into the past and say that is impossible because if it were true then we would not be at this point in time yet.
    What do you think of that reasoning?
    I know you cannot understand existence without time (I AM) but that is no reason to not believe it exists. Can you understand an infinite number of minutes into that past which has reached this minute and goes on even further? iow infinite is getting bigger all the time.
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,236
    Ratings:
    +781
    Religion:
    Christian
    OK thanks.
    I would say that the Word is exactly like His Father in all ways including the fact that He did not come into existence (John 1:3) and in that respect there must have been at least 2 gods around from eternity. One big one and one lesser one because that one received all He has from His Father.
    That is not really OK scripturally so the Trinitarians solve it by saying that the lesser god is the Son whom therefore is subordinate to His Father and the lesser and bigger god, even though different consciousnesses, have to be the same God.
    Jesus elaborates a bit when He says the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.
    But yes the Father is the one true God when seen as having the Son in Him from everlasting.
    The WT seems to resolve the issue by denying John 1:3 and coming up with an meaning for "beginning" that fit with scripture as to what "beginning" signifies.
    Also I guess I would have to say that the Word was not really a lesser god because when John 1:1 says "..........and the Word was God" what language people tell us is that "God" here is a quality thing and so the verse is saying that the Word was qualitatively the same as "the God" which He was with.....................from eternity. o_O
    Maybe you now say that "the God" was bigger, but as I said that "a god" thing is not good scripturally
    without denying John 1:3 and other passages which show that Son to be exactly life His Father in all ways, including size.
     
Loading...