Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

[YoursTrue]

That would be your doctrinal basics; certainly not a basic doctrine of scripture or getting back to the basics of thread theme.




There are many more in heaven, but in reference to the Triune God, there are 3 persons, one God, yes.

Here is one artist's rendition of the trinity:
The Trinity in art - Wikipedia
One of the "persons" depicted as a dove. So is the holy spirit a dove in heaven?
And just look, which of the two people like beings has a beard? Is it the son?
Just imagine -- I mean that's what you believe. Three persons, separate and distinct -- each without a beginning. Just there. No beginning for any of the three.
If that's what you believe and you want to stick with it, all I can say is, that's your belief and you're sticking to it. But there is simply nothing, absolutely nothing that the Bible says in any case to confirm that thought. None whatsoever. But if you want to believe it -- it's been interesting talking to you.

 

[YoursTrue]

No there is only one creator, God and He created everything through Jesus, His Word. Also we know that the Holy Spirit was there also doing whatever but the NT is speaking about Jesus and who He is and is not a treatise on the creation. But as I said, it is all God. You see the Word as an agent because it says "through" or "by" "by means of", but that does not mean that the Word was created and was not the one through whom ALL things were created. As I have said, the NT tells us also that everything was created through God the Father. (Romans 11:36, Heb 2:10)



Rev 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
There are a number of possible translations of this verse and "first in time" is the least likely of it's meanings I am told.



No doubt the Father is the source of His Word and the source of life and that is why God is Jesus Father. That does not mean that God's Word has not been with the Father from eternity.
Jesus is "Eternal Father" or "Father of Eternity" (Isa 9:6)
2 Kings 19:15
Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, who are enthroned above the cherubim, You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.
Psalm 83:18
That they may know that You alone, whose name is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
“I am the Lord, and there is none else.
Isa 43:10 Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
Psalm 83:18
That they may know that You alone, whose name is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.
Isa 44:6Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God but Me.
Isa 46:9 Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me

Jesus is the first and the last and made the heavens, Jesus's name is Yahweh, Jesus is the Redeemer, Jesus is exactly like His Father and has the same God nature as His Father.
The 2 are united in the One Spirit who is also seen to be alive and have the traits of a conscious, living being.

I certainly would have been an easy thing for God to have said, "I chose the first being I created, to be the Messiah". But no, He goes to a great deal of effort to not only establish Himself as the only True God but also to point to His Son as also being God and that His Spirit is also God. This had to be sorted out because it was a source of heretical attack. I am amazed that Arius or anyone else could have said that Jesus was a created being. That is so obviously wrong and so obviously requires changes to the scriptures and the definitions of words and that is what the WT has done in order to push this idea.



The WT has to deny parts of the definitions of "spirit" and "soul" in order to try to prove their doctrines. The soul lives on at the death of the body (Matt 10:28) and no matter which way you look at it, the body and soul die at the death of the body. The body becomes a dead soul and the life force goes back to God according to WT theology and nothing lives on. So they have to make up the idea that the soul lives on in the memory of God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but so does the body and anyway nothing is said about God's memory in that scripture.



I don't know. Maybe this gives us a clue.
Isa 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands; pay attention, O distant peoples: The LORD called Me from the womb; from the body of My mother He named Me. 2 He made my mouth like a sharp sword; He hid me in the shadow of His hand. He made me like a polished arrow; He hid me in His quiver. 3 He said to Me, “You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will display My glory.”…

I don't know for sure about how many persons of the trinity were in heaven while the Son was on earth. It does appear that the conscious life of the Word was in the flesh as a man however.



God is not the Father of matter and God is not the Father of a life force. God is the Father of our spirit. The spirit that was the prehuman Jesus came and became attached to the flesh of His body as a man. That is why our body is called our tent and why Jesus could say that if they tore down the temple of His body, He would raise it up again in 3 days. We live in out body tent and are naked without it and Jesus lived in His body Temple because He is God unless He meant that God was in there with Him.
And Jesus was not sent to prove anything. That is an invention of the WT. He was sent to be the Messiah, the Redeemer of mankind. There was no doubt that He would be able to do that because He is the image of God and so is as good as His Father. By this He glorified His Father and showed us what God is like.
The WT seems to want everyone, even God's Son to have to prove themselves to God. It is part of their salvation by works gospel I guess.
But yes I guess it is a big off topic.

If you love God, you show others about Him. Like Jesus had disciples. His disciples were taught and passed on their knowledge. If those who understood things kept quiet, as Jesus said, the stones would cry out. Now what would they cry out about? Either this world is going to be done away with, or it is not. Either Jesus is the son of God with great power given to him, or he is not. Either people will be mercilessly tortured forever or they will not. And so on...

 

[Brian2]

Son of God of Heaven and Earth & God of Heaven and Earth are not the same. One is a possesor and the other a possession. One is the owner and the other can receive an inheritance and be exhalted.

If your earthly father gives you all he has, or you inherit all he has; that does not make you him literally. One of you proocedeth forth and came from the other; not of yourself.

Yes that is what I am saying. The Son received life from the Father and has always been with and in His Father and was born as a human when He was born. But even being born as a human did not mean that Jesus lost His Divine nature. Why do you think that I am saying that the Son is the Father?
In the OT the one who inherits the nations is the Son (Psalm 2:8) and is also Yahweh (Psalm 82:8). The Son is Yahweh but the Son is not the Father.
If the Father possesses the Son then it is the same way that we possess our heart.
The Son is subject to His Father's will because He is the Son of His Father. The Father has exalted His Son by showing everyone that the Son is also Yahweh and by giving the ruler and Lord of creation and Kingship over His Kingdom. At the end of course after salvation work is fully ended, Jesus again becomes subordinate to His Father even though He remains Lord and King forever.

Whether that statement is true or not it does not change that the word is beginning of creation. The Word is what made God a Father. The Father possessed his wisdom from himself and thru his wisdom he possessed his word. Creation has an origin and The Word has an origin all things are of the Heavenly Father. One Authority , One Will One Existence Eph 4:6

One authority, one will, one existence, I can agree with that,,,,,,,,,,but you probably mean it in a different way than I understand it.
When it comes to The Word having an origin, I suppose you men an origin in time,,,,,,,,,,,,,but time had a beginning at the beginning, when creation began.
So when we find out that the Word/the Son was with God in the beginning, it means that the Word has always been with God and has always been qualitatively God,,,,,,,,,,,,,one God with His Father, the one who gives Him life.

Call no Man your Heavenly Father and no exceptions and no excuses.
specifically, everlasting father is eternal high priest under the new covenant.

I don't say that the Son is the Father.

You have no proof of before the beginning only in the beginning. Seems very disingenuous when people pretend or think that they do.
Before your earthy father had his firstborn has he always been a father?

No my earthly father was not a father before he was a father. We are time bound and God is the I AM just as Jesus is the I AM. God does not change and has not changed, just as Jesus does not change and has not changed. God has always known what He would do in time and so God has always been a judge and anything else He is.
Nobody is like God who is not God according to God, BUT Jesus is exactly like God.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think I answered this in the last post I did, but it would be interesting to hear your version of the Greek for John 1:1. Then again I have read a bit about the different ideas Greek scholars have about this verse. It is not saying that the Word was "the God". It is not saying the Word was "a god". It seems to be another way of saying that the Word was in image of "the God".
But of course a whole theology is not built on one verse, even if one verse can wreck a whole theology.

There are different aspects, and different viewpoints of theologians of various theologies. And by that, I am speaking of various theologies such as: literal destruction of the earth and replacing it literally with a "new earth," (same with heaven), vs. understanding the meaning as not making a literal planet again, Jesus coming so "every eye" can see Him, some think they will literally be whisked away to heaven while there are others "left behind" to be destroyed vs. seeing his power and hand in the matter when this world comes to its end, and etc.Aren't you grateful that this world as it exists will be done away with?
And that is not to leave out the rather famous trinitarian theologians that thought Michael referred to Jesus. So while many may agree that "God" is a triune combination of three persons always in existence, there are others that do not. As we know, Michael Servetus was horribly put to death for daring to expose his thoughts about that. God is one God taken into context, Jehovah is not other gods the Israelites turned to and incurred the true God's wrath, and the nations around them were also worshipping false gods. Jesus is rightfully called a god because of his great and unassailable power, wisdom, and glory he has been given BY God, His Father.
And then there are those called gods that are not in harmony with the only true God that Jesus mentioned.

 

[YoursTrue]

As I said, John is speaking about Jesus and His origins and so I don't expect a Holy Spirit to be mentioned.

Why not? It says the Word was with God. You say John is speaking about Jesus and his origins? (Really?)

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus in the flesh on earth had the same nature as His Father plus the nature of a servant. Phil 2
The Father was greater, being the Father and in heaven and with all power and authority and with Jesus having taken the nature of a servant and humbled Himself to live as a man etc but in nature they were equally divine.

Doesn't make sense. One of the three persons, equal to the other two, took on flesh but remained aGodperson equal to the other two? No, sorry, don't see it. (Because it's not there...)

 

[rational experiences]

Humans, alive and writers of books. Researchers, theists, as humans living as humans.

All claiming via variations to thinking "I know where we came from".

Science says it for a resource, for their machines and their inventions.

Humans say it for human survival reasoning.

Bible, a written contradiction that when read, God is God and then God destroys you.

So any human with use of common sense would claim, if God can destroy you, what does a human do wrong to have God destroy you. Common sense.

The only powerful human is a scientist with a machine.

So then a common sense human would ask, did humans do science before.

Archaeology and building evidence says yes, they did.

Then you look at where the claim for Jesus as a recording is......in the clouds.

So then humans can say, see Jesus is seen in the clouds, and it is about death.

Then you think about what lived before our modern day life, after the ICE AGE. A condition on Earth that was not previous until it occurred. And it was dinosaurs.

You look at clouds and then see images of dinosaurs in the same clouds.

Modern times, you see the images of modern day animals also, in clouds.

Phenomena listing, huge. UFO EVENT. Everyone says look at the strange evil Satanic forms of attacks on the animal bodies. Humans own a various listing of very strange attacks also.

How is the evidence not evident?

Then when you ask the story teller, story, Bible please advise me what occurred?

The story says. Space a womb is the Holy body owning every diverse presence in the cosmos that you can see. One body only owns it space.

So science can only quote that space is one body, and only owns one condition.

Yet science tries to preach to us, as a con that space owns 2 conditions, when space is only ONE body.

So they called space a WOMB, said it owned all bodies historically by an Immaculate claim.

Law of science relativity written after self evident life attacked, said space is a mystery, the actual law advice.

Egotism in human male groups says otherwise.

Even claiming and I know that eternal means infinite. When eternal is one word meaning and infinite is also one word meaning.

Then the false prophets, maths being the prophecy, for maths only exists expressed in human life says.....and eternal is what you get with Jesus.

And we say, but Jesus died sacrificed. Yes that is right, when humans die sacrificed they get the eternal.

A spiritual human quotes that theme as always had existed, spirit living in the eternal. When we die we still all own our highest spirit from which we got released, the eternal. So we all say, yes we believe that when we die we get to be the eternal.

Then you realise, oh our brother wanted in science the eternal form. But it is not in creation. Then you realise he would sacrifice all life by science in the want of the eternal. Claiming, which I heard his confession in AI quote, that he can resource the power of a human quoting we are God in human form.

When the documents as law of relativity said no man is God. Man and woMan.

Therefore is space only owns what is created and it formed Immaculately, then no scientist is any Creator of God is he!

 

[Brian2]

Let's see if you think there's no beginning to the following:
John 17:2
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give
eternal life to all those you have given him.

So much in that sentence, isn't there? Not only did God grant the Son authority -- (imagine that) but the Son can give what?? ETERNAL LIFE to all those that GOD the FATHER GAVE THE SON. What a mind-opener. The Son can give ETERNAL LIFE to those that GOD gave him. Want to say they had eternal life when they were born? Come on, let us know it's all fixed from no beginning, ok? And so much for equals.

Why do you say "And so much for equals"? The Father and Son have the same nature since one is the Father and the other is His Son. The Son is not only subordinate to the will of the Father but also as a man now the Son has a God, His Father, who became His God when He became a man. (Psalm 22:10) "From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God."
It would be good if you could give an answer to Biblical teachings and to the actual teachings of the Trinity doctrine instead of setting up a straw man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which you may even be doing without realising it of course.

 

[YoursTrue]

As I said, John is speaking about Jesus and His origins and so I don't expect a Holy Spirit to be mentioned. Even the WT tells us that the angels were there at the beginning of the creation of this universe (not that I agree with that since the Bible does not tell us that) and the angels aren't mentioned at John 1:1 so does that mean they weren't there?



All things having been made/created/brought into being by the Word does mean that the Word was not made/created/brought into being. The Church in one of it's creeds has said that the Son was "born of the Father before time began, God from God, light from light, true God from true God". I guess the "before time began" means that this happened in the days of everlasting, in eternity, which is what Micah 5:2 is meant to mean because of it's sort of saying this 2, and that extends the time to eternity. (not that there was an eternity of time into the past or we could not be here at this time yet if we see time as linear).
Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”



A son does come from a father and that is why the Father is the only true God and why the son is the real Son, not a created one like us, and why the Son submits to the Father even if He is equal in nature. The Son having brought all things into existence is not something that has been brought into existence and so I would not have said "born from the Father before time began". I would say that the Son has been with and in the Father always. The Son did not have to be born from the Father. The words that God spoke have been in God and express what God is, just as the Bible tells us what God is and the Son is the perfect expression of what God is. But when the Son was conceived and born in a similar way that humans and animals do it, He was conceived and born as a man.
Heb 1 seems to be about showing us who the Son is and what He is in contrast to who and what angels are. The Son was not a created angel (messenger) even if the Son has been a messenger of God in the OT and has even been identified as being God in those places where that has happened.

Human generation is rather different than that which comes from the Father and Son. Of course, Adam and Eve were created as adults. Their children were not made in the same way they were.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why do you say "And so much for equals"? The Father and Son have the same nature since one is the Father and the other is His Son. The Son is not only subordinate to the will of the Father but also as a man now the Son has a God, His Father, who became His God when He became a man. (Psalm 22:10) "From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God."
It would be good if you could give an answer to Biblical teachings and to the actual teachings of the Trinity doctrine instead of setting up a straw man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which you may even be doing without realising it of course.

Unfortunately I cannot read everything you write due to lack of time. So please forgive me for that, sorry. Here is what I wrote that you are responding to:
I wrote, --
"Let's see if you think there's no beginning to the following:
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give
eternal life to all those you have given him.
So much in that sentence, isn't there? Not only did God grant the Son authority -- (imagine that) but the Son can give what?? ETERNAL LIFE to all those that GOD the FATHER GAVE THE SON. What a mind-opener. The Son can give ETERNAL LIFE to those that GOD gave him. Want to say they had eternal life when they were born? Come on, let us know it's all fixed from no beginning, ok? And so much for equals."
First of all, Jesus said that God, his Father, granted him authority over all people in order to give them eternal life to all those God (his Father) allowed him to. "all those you have given him." To me, that is not born or inherent equality. And it is restricted to that which God, his Father, gave him. As the scriptures say, unlike Satan the Devil, Jesus did not grab equality as Satan did with Adam.
As for the main point I was trying to bring out, Jesus was given the opportunity to grant eternal life to others. That means that eternal does not mean 'no beginning.'
So two points here. One is that the Son was granted the privilege of giving eternal life to those that God gave him. The second is that eternal does not mean from no beginning to no end. Eternal means no dying in that sense.

 

[Oeste]

Nope, not every definition says eternal means no beginning and no end.

Correct. The dated, informal or colloquial usage simply means an indefinite period of time. “Her eternal blabbering put me on edge.” But we’re referring to scripture and not informal English. I don’t see how you retrofit such a meaning into Koine Greek.

Eternal Father means just that, eternal… no beginning or end.

let's see how you figure eternal life for those that gain it.
New International Version
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So some go to eternal what? eternal punishment. And others go to eternal life.

But what does the NWT say? Does it mention "eternal" at all? No it doesn't, does it?

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)​

Apparently you disagree with the WT's rendering of this verse. I happen to think it's pretty good. That's a switch, ain't it?

Please ask one of your fellow JW's if they would agree with you that "eternal" is a better translation than "everlasting" here. Then ask them why they feel "everlasting" is better than "eternal".

Want to say how they were always "eternally punished" or "eternally alive"??????????? Please --

I also happen to like the following translation from the King James and Young's Literal:

1. So they will go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (KJV)

2. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)

Remember: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Any life or punishment we receive comes from Jesus, our eternal King.

I'll enjoy hearing your explanation. Because next we'll hear there's just no way out -- doomed or saved from before you were born, is that right? Way before you were born --

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "doomed or saved before you were born".

Come on, let us know it's all fixed from no beginning, ok?

I never understood why some folk think things are "fixed" once they learn God knows the future. Perhaps you can answer this for me:

Jesus prophetically tells Peter "Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times."​

Since Jesus knows the future and since he doesn't lie, do you believe the "fix" was in for Peter? Can Peter now say he was forced to betray Jesus because God gave him no other choice?

Jude 1:21 - New International Version
keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Of course, the person who brings life has always lived. This is no short term life, like "life of the party", but the eternal source of life. He is not only our source of eternal life but the source of everlasting punishment. Remember, vengeance, judgment, retribution as well as life are His alone to bequeath.

Hmm, let's see a little more there.
Titus 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become
heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This may help you understand "eternal" a bit more:

The Bible answers that God did not have a beginning. God has always existed. As difficult as the concept of God’s eternity is to grasp, we cannot dismiss the idea simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010491

Or perhaps this:

ETERNITY—what would you say it is? Do you think time could really go on forever? Well, there is no question that time stretches forever into the past. So why not forever into the future? Indeed, the New World Translation of the Bible refers to God as being praised “from time indefinite even to time indefinite.” (Psalm 41:13) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1996243#h=35

I could write a lot more about this (Greek Aion/Hebrew olam) but I have very little time and a deadline I have to meet this week. It's also very late, I'm tired and I have an appointment with my pillow.

 

[YoursTrue]

Correct. The dated, informal or colloquial usage simply means an indefinite period of time. “Her eternal blabbering put me on edge.” But we’re referring to scripture and not informal English. I don’t see how you retrofit such a meaning into Koine Greek.

Eternal Father means just that, eternal… no beginning or end.

Speaking of the word eternal or everlasting, I do see the following in regard to the word everlasting at Genesis 17:19:
"No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac;and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
There's no way everlasting there means 'no beginning.' No end, yes. But not no beginning.

 

[YoursTrue]

Correct. The dated, informal or colloquial usage simply means an indefinite period of time. “Her eternal blabbering put me on edge.” But we’re referring to scripture and not informal English. I don’t see how you retrofit such a meaning into Koine Greek.

Eternal Father means just that, eternal… no beginning or end.





But what does the NWT say? Does it mention "eternal" at all? No it doesn't, does it?

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)​

Apparently you disagree with the WT's rendering of this verse. I happen to think it's pretty good. That's a switch, ain't it?

Please ask one of your fellow JW's if they would agree with you that "eternal" is a better translation than "everlasting" here. Then ask them why they feel "everlasting" is better than "eternal".



I also happen to like the following translation from the King James and Young's Literal:

1. So they will go away to everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (KJV)

2. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)

Remember: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Any life or punishment we receive comes from Jesus, our eternal King.




I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "doomed or saved before you were born".



I never understood why some folk think things are "fixed" once they learn God knows the future. Perhaps you can answer this for me:

Jesus prophetically tells Peter "Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times."​

Since Jesus knows the future and since he doesn't lie, do you believe the "fix" was in for Peter? Can Peter now say he was forced to betray Jesus because God gave him no other choice?



Of course, the person who brings life has always lived. This is no short term life, like "life of the party", but the eternal source of life. He is not only our source of eternal life but the source of everlasting punishment. Remember, vengeance, judgment, retribution as well as life are His alone to bequeath.



This may help you understand "eternal" a bit more:

The Bible answers that God did not have a beginning. God has always existed. As difficult as the concept of God’s eternity is to grasp, we cannot dismiss the idea simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010491

Or perhaps this:

ETERNITY—what would you say it is? Do you think time could really go on forever? Well, there is no question that time stretches forever into the past. So why not forever into the future? Indeed, the New World Translation of the Bible refers to God as being praised “from time indefinite even to time indefinite.” (Psalm 41:13) https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1996243#h=35

I could write a lot more about this (Greek Aion/Hebrew olam) but I have very little time and a deadline I have to meet this week. It's also very late, I'm tired and I have an appointment with my pillow.

Was it John Calvin that taught one's fate (destiny) is sealed from conception or maybe before conception? I mean it's "eternal" burning in hell or "eternal" bliss in heaven, right from conception I suppose. Or before. What do you feel about that?

 

[Brian2]

Was it John Calvin that taught one's fate (destiny) is sealed from conception or maybe before conception? I mean it's "eternal" burning in hell or "eternal" bliss in heaven, right from conception I suppose. Or before. What do you feel about that?

God has known the fate of everyone from before they were born, and God has ordained the salvation of those who will be saved.
Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,…
God knows the future and what He sees and does not change is what He has ordained imo.
Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
How do you see these passages?

 

[Brian2]

Speaking of the word eternal or everlasting, I do see the following in regard to the word everlasting at Genesis 17:19:
"No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac;and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
There's no way everlasting there means 'no beginning.' No end, yes. But not no beginning.

Does it have to mean "no beginning"? It does not say "eternal covenant".
I could use a WT argument and say that the Covenant existed in the mind of God from eternity past, as the WT uses with the places in the scripture that tell us of people living after death and the WT saying it is in the mind of God, (eg Matt 10:28, Luke 20:38) but it is not a scripturally sound argument imo. It would mean that nothing had a beginning, just as the WT argument about a soul not being killed at the death of the body means that nothing, including the body, ever dies, because God remembers it.

 

[Brian2]

Unfortunately I cannot read everything you write due to lack of time. So please forgive me for that, sorry. Here is what I wrote that you are responding to:
I wrote, --
"Let's see if you think there's no beginning to the following:
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give
eternal life to all those you have given him.
So much in that sentence, isn't there? Not only did God grant the Son authority -- (imagine that) but the Son can give what?? ETERNAL LIFE to all those that GOD the FATHER GAVE THE SON. What a mind-opener. The Son can give ETERNAL LIFE to those that GOD gave him. Want to say they had eternal life when they were born? Come on, let us know it's all fixed from no beginning, ok? And so much for equals."
First of all, Jesus said that God, his Father, granted him authority over all people in order to give them eternal life to all those God (his Father) allowed him to. "all those you have given him." To me, that is not born or inherent equality. And it is restricted to that which God, his Father, gave him. As the scriptures say, unlike Satan the Devil, Jesus did not grab equality as Satan did with Adam.
As for the main point I was trying to bring out, Jesus was given the opportunity to grant eternal life to others. That means that eternal does not mean 'no beginning.'
So two points here. One is that the Son was granted the privilege of giving eternal life to those that God gave him. The second is that eternal does not mean from no beginning to no end. Eternal means no dying in that sense.

There is no problem trinity wise with John 17:2. The Son is the Son and submits to His Father's will always and receives all things from His Father. Jesus is the one who gives life to those He gives it to. This makes Jesus our Father, our Eternal Father because He had not beginning. (He existed in the beginning-----before time began)
The equality is in many ways between the Father and Son since the Son is exactly like the Father (see Heb 1:1-3 for example), and this equality is also in the God nature that Jesus has. That is what makes Jesus the Son of God who was never brought into existence. (see John 1:3)
What makes you think that Satan grabbed equality with God? Or are you saying that Satan grabbed equality with Adam? I thought Satan became the god of this world.
But Jesus was able to grab equality since He was in the form of God. No little spirit could do that. Being disobedient is not grabbing equality with God unless that equality existed in all other areas already and disobedience was just a way of pushing that with His Father. "Hey dad, I'm equal with you and so I'm not going to now become a servant and a human,,,,,,,,,,,I'm staying here and ruling with you."
The life that we are given as Christians is eternal life because it goes on forever into the future and because it is life from God and so has been around forever. But also because it is life from God, this is the reason that theologians say "Eternal Life" denotes not just a length of time but also the quality of that life.

 

[Brian2]

Human generation is rather different than that which comes from the Father and Son. Of course, Adam and Eve were created as adults. Their children were not made in the same way they were.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Brian2]

Doesn't make sense. One of the three persons, equal to the other two, took on flesh but remained aGodperson equal to the other two? No, sorry, don't see it. (Because it's not there...)

Do you think that the prehuman Jesus, who was not brought into existence ever (John 1:3) and so was the Divine Son of God (meaning He has the same nature as His Father) was not the Divine Son of God when He became a man?
Jesus was equal in nature to His Father when He became a man if He was that before becoming a man.
It actually is there that the Word never came into existence. (John 1:3) It is there also that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[Brian2]

Why not? It says the Word was with God. You say John is speaking about Jesus and his origins? (Really?)

Why not? Because the Holy Spirit is not the topic of John 1:1. The other Gospels approach the origins of Jesus from other angles but John does it in an absolute way and tells us that He was already there at the beginning and that He did not come into existence.
I never get an answer when I approach the topic of never ending time into the past and say that is impossible because if it were true then we would not be at this point in time yet.
What do you think of that reasoning?
I know you cannot understand existence without time (I AM) but that is no reason to not believe it exists. Can you understand an infinite number of minutes into that past which has reached this minute and goes on even further? iow infinite is getting bigger all the time.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus is rightfully called a god because of his great and unassailable power, wisdom, and glory he has been given BY God, His Father.
And then there are those called gods that are not in harmony with the only true God that Jesus mentioned.

OK thanks.
I would say that the Word is exactly like His Father in all ways including the fact that He did not come into existence (John 1:3) and in that respect there must have been at least 2 gods around from eternity. One big one and one lesser one because that one received all He has from His Father.
That is not really OK scripturally so the Trinitarians solve it by saying that the lesser god is the Son whom therefore is subordinate to His Father and the lesser and bigger god, even though different consciousnesses, have to be the same God.
Jesus elaborates a bit when He says the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.
But yes the Father is the one true God when seen as having the Son in Him from everlasting.
The WT seems to resolve the issue by denying John 1:3 and coming up with an meaning for "beginning" that fit with scripture as to what "beginning" signifies.
Also I guess I would have to say that the Word was not really a lesser god because when John 1:1 says "..........and the Word was God" what language people tell us is that "God" here is a quality thing and so the verse is saying that the Word was qualitatively the same as "the God" which He was with.....................from eternity.
Maybe you now say that "the God" was bigger, but as I said that "a god" thing is not good scripturally
without denying John 1:3 and other passages which show that Son to be exactly life His Father in all ways, including size.