Why I believe in Christ

[mmarco]

What about this life here, regardless of heaven beyond? Is it possible to experience the fullness of heaven here on earth while you are alive? Does that happen, or is it just believing after you die you will find that Peace, that brings a sense of hope for the next world?

I do not know if it is possible to experience the fullness of heaven in the present life; many saints told about mistical experiences; it seems that they may have experienced heaven during their earthly life.
However, the fundamental point is that the more we approach sanctity, the more we experience the fullness of happiness, love and peace. What we have to do is to walk the road towards sanctity.

But how does the transformation happen? If you just quit doing bad things, that's good. But what else needs to happen in order to grow beyond the ego? What sort of practices do you do?

I think that prayer is a fundamental element of such transformation, because through prayer we establish a personal relationship with the Lord. Christ founded His Church to help us to find sanctity and salvation; you should talk to a priest ; he could give you much more information than I can do here on this forum.

I agree God is the source of all true love and good, for God is Love. But when you mentioned doubt before, were you talking about not doubting that, or about not doubting certain theological beliefs?

I am not a theologian; what I meant is that I have no doubts about Christ being God and about God being the source of all true love and good.

 

[mmarco]

That's not what I said. I referred to the concept of "God and divine love," which is not unique to Christianity.

My point is that many religions teach that God is love, but the problem is to define what the word "love" means, because by itself it could be only a vague and generic concept.
The christian concept of divine love is unique because it actualizes in the acceptance of a terrible physical suffering; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us. This is a concrete meaning of divine love, and not only a theorical and vague concept of love. I think that this christian idea of divine love is the highest possible concept of divine love and it is the fundamental reason why I believe that Christ is God.

 

[Valjean]

My point is that many religions teach that God is love, but the problem is to define what the word "love" means, because by itself it could be only a vague and generic concept.
The christian concept of divine love is unique because it actualizes in the acceptance of a terrible physical sufferings; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us. This is a concrete meaning of divine love, and not only a theorical and vague concept of love. I think that this christian idea of divine love is the highest possible concept of divine love and it is the fundamental reason why I believe that Christ is God.

I think that's reading a lot more into it than most Christians do.

 

[mmarco]

Why would a god want to sacrifice itself to itself in order to pay for your sins, or is that just a business model used for tithing to preacher men selling after-death salvation?

The expression "to pay for our sins" is to be interpreted allegorically; God is not a cashier.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).
In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion. Christ's Passion has reconciled us to God because it has uprooted from our heart our distrust and doubts about God's love; in this sense, allegorically, Christ's Passion is the sacrifice paid for our sins.

 

[Windwalker]

The people who are alive on Earth starting with calendar Day One of Jesus' millennial reign over Earth can gain everlasting life on Earth.
These living people are the figurative humble ' sheep' of Matthew 25:37.
They are the ' great crowd ' of people of Revelation 7:9 who come through the ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14.
So, the fullness of heaven's blessings will be right here to experience right here on Earth.
There will be ' healing ' for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2.
No one will say, " I am sick....." - Isaiah 33:24
Earth and its people will be healthy as described at Isaiah35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

So your answer to my question can we experience the fullness of heaven here on earth while we are alive, is no. You are saying there is no hope for anyone of us of knowing God on earth as is heaven, until the millenium begins, or after we die.

So "salvation" is something that comes when you die, not while you live - or at least you don't get to realize it while you are alive. That's what I gather from your answer.

 

[Windwalker]

My point is that many religions teach that God is love, but the problem is to define what the word "love" means, because by itself it could be only a vague and generic concept.

Perhaps in the English language it is confusing because it's not really a poetic language. Rather, it's more akin to pointing and grunting, as opposed to communicating nuance and subtlety. For instance in some Eskimo languages, there are something like 22 different words for snow, all of which describe different types of snow.

I understand in the Greek language of the NT, there are around 4 different words used which are translated into English as love. And the nuance and subtlety of those distinct words gets lost in translation. The love of God is distinct, and has meaning beyond our ordinary use of the word love.

From my understanding, that Agape Love, is pretty much what the highest realization of love is in most all religions. At least in those where the follower seeks to realize that Love beyond ordinary human experiences.

The christian concept of divine love is unique because it actualizes in the acceptance of a terrible physical suffering; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us. This is a concrete meaning of divine love, and not only a theorical and vague concept of love. I think that this christian idea of divine love is the highest possible concept of divine love and it is the fundamental reason why I believe that Christ is God.

But did not that Love of God, exist and was known to humans before Jesus was executed by the Romans? Couldn't people know the Love of God, without knowledge of the death of Jesus?

 

[mmarco]

But did not that Love of God, exist and was known to humans before Jesus was executed by the Romans? Couldn't people know the Love of God, without knowledge of the death of Jesus?

No other religions have ever taught that God is willing to suffer a terrible death to save us; so, nobody who lived before Christ, understood how great God's love for us is.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.

 

[mmarco]

From my understanding, that Agape Love, is pretty much what the highest realization of love is in most all religions. At least in those where the follower seeks to realize that Love beyond ordinary human experiences.

The christian concept of "agape" has deeply influenced also other religions, which are today reinterpreted acording to this concept; for example, Ghandi, even if he was not christian, was deeply influenced by the Gospels. The situation was however very different 2000 years ago, before Christ.

 

[Windwalker]

No other religions have ever taught that God is willing to suffer a terrible death to save us; so, nobody who lived before Christ, understood how great God's love for us is.

1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.

That verse is telling us that that is an example of what God's love looks like, not that that is the only way to know what God's love is. It's telling believers that that is how they should act, what their love for others should look like. "Greater love than this has no man, that he should lay down his life for a friend."

That is not saying that prior to Jesus' death, we couldn't know the love of God. A reading of the psalms or the canticles speaks of that love, long before Jesus. It's simply saying, this is how true love acts, with self-sacrifice. Laying down one's life for another, is not new to Jesus.

 

[Windwalker]

The christian concept of "agape" has deeply influenced also other religions, which are today reinterpreted acording to this concept; for example, Ghandi, even if he was not christian, was deeply influenced by the Gospels.

Ghandi is not a whole religion. I do not believe we can say that Hinduism has been influenced by Christian teachings. In fact, I'd say as a whole, that would be very incorrect. Yet, of course, we do find some common themes in each of them respectively. But that seems due more to our shared humanity, rather than our borrowed or adopted beliefs about God.

Humans looking to the divine, will see the same things at times, even if they speak about it using different words and symbols. This is what the perennial philosophy considers.

The situation was however very different 2000 years ago, before Christ.

If people couldn't recognize the Love of God prior to Christ, then how could anyone have recognized him?

 

[mmarco]

If people couldn't recognize the Love of God prior to Christ, then how could anyone have recognized him?

I think you have misunderstood my meaning; people certainly had an idea about love, but their concept of love was less deep; for example, they did not believe that we must love also our enemies, those who hate us, but they thought that we must love only our friends.
And also as far as God's love for us is concerned, they had a more confuse idea about it and they did not expect that God's love is so great that He is willing to suffer for us; this concept is a unique concept of the christian faith.

 

[OtherSheep]

In other words you can't show us where Jesus said that he was sinless or that he said that he was a god.

I have.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[OtherSheep]

Doesn't change the fact that Psalm 2:6-7 says that David was his god's begotten son as well as the Jewish king, even though he never went to heaven (John 3:13)..

From God to The Prophet Nathan, to David:
2 Samuel 7:12 And it shall come to pass when thy days shall have been fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, even thine own issue, and I will establish His kingdom. 13 He shall build for Me a house to My name, and I will set up His throne even for ever. 14 I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Mitty]

The expression "to pay for our sins" is to be interpreted allegorically; God is not a cashier.
I believe that God loves us infinitely, and He desires to lead each of us to the true life and true happiness, a condition existing only in communion with God. But God cannot tolerate evil and sin, because they are incompatible with His good and holy nature. A deep interior change is then necessary for all of us to reach the eternal happiness; we must be sanctified and purified from all our evil and sinful desires. God has the power to change us but He wants to do that with our consent. In fact God has chosen to create man with a free will, He wants to respect our free will. Man cannot really accept to be changed by God and he cannot be in comunion with God as long as even a shadow of doubt and distrust remains in his heart ( it must be stressed that such a distrust may exist even without the man is aware of it, at the unconscious level).
In order to destroy every shadow of doubt and distrust in our heart, God has chosen to give us the greatest proof of love that may exist: Christ's Passion. Christ's Passion has reconciled us to God because it has uprooted from our heart our distrust and doubts about God's love; in this sense, allegorically, Christ's Passion is the sacrifice paid for our sins.

But what has that got to do with Jesus being executed by the Romans for sedition and being mocked as the false "King of the Jews", and Peter denying knowing Jesus to avoid being executed for sedition too?

 

[Mitty]

From God to The Prophet Nathan, to David:
2 Samuel 7:12 And it shall come to pass when thy days shall have been fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, even thine own issue, and I will establish His kingdom. 13 He shall build for Me a house to My name, and I will set up His throne even for ever. 14 I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

In other words Solomon became the Jewish king after David kicked the bucket. Which is why Jesus had no claim to be the Jewish king since Solomon's brother, Nathan, didn't become the Jewish king after their father kicked the bucket (Luke 3:31). Nor did Jesus have a claim to be the Jewish king if Jacob's son was only Jesus' adoptive father (Matt 1:16), and Jesus' brother should therefore have been the Jewish king. Which is why Jesus' family (including his mother and his adoptive father) didn't believe that Jesus was a prophet, let alone the Jewish king (Matt 13:55-58).

You know it makes sense.

 

[Mitty]

I have.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So why did Jesus say that he wasn't sinless (Mark 10:18)? And why didn't he stone the adulteress if he was sinless (John 8:7) given that he said that every jot and tittle of OT law still applies till heaven and earth pass when all is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19), including the commandment to stone adulteresses (Lev 20:10) and to terminate the pregnancies of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28)?

 

[OtherSheep]

In other words Solomon became the Jewish king after David kicked the bucket.

But Solomon isn't the king whose throne will be established for ever, and neither is Solomon's son.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build for Me a house to My name,
and I will set up His throne even for ever.

1 Kings 11:31 and he said to Jeroboam, Take to thyself ten pieces, for thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand
35 But I will take the kingdom out of the hand of his son

Thus began the Divided Kingdom; Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam. In the next chapter, Solomon's son and all his kingdom are told to feed themselves by the kingdom of Jeroboam.

In fact, Mitty, none of the human kings had or will have a throne established by God forever. Because God was telling us about Jesus and His throne is the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So why did Jesus say that he wasn't sinless (Mark 10:18)? And why didn't he stone the adulteress if he was sinless (John 8:7) given that he said that every jot and tittle of OT law still applies till heaven and earth pass when all is fulfilled (Matt 5:17-19), including the commandment to stone adulteresses (Lev 20:10) and to terminate the pregnancies of adulteresses (Numbers 5:20-28)?

The first 11 verses of John chapter 8 are spurious verses, Not in the original manuscripts.
God is good in the superlative sense. Jesus is good in a relative sense to God's absolute goodness.
Jesus was Not saying he was Not good. Jesus was humble always giving credit to his God - Revelation 4:11
Jesus was without sin - Hebrews 4:15 B
Mary's Son was 'Holy' (without sin ) Luke 1:35

 

[Mitty]

But Solomon isn't the king whose throne will be established for ever, and neither is Solomon's son.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build for Me a house to My name,
and I will set up His throne even for ever.

1 Kings 11:31 and he said to Jeroboam, Take to thyself ten pieces, for thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Behold, I rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand
35 But I will take the kingdom out of the hand of his son

Thus began the Divided Kingdom; Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam. In the next chapter, Solomon's son and all his kingdom are told to feed themselves by the kingdom of Jeroboam.

In fact, Mitty, none of the human kings had or will have a throne established by God forever. Because God was telling us about Jesus and His throne is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Doesn't change the fact that Jesus had no claim to be the Jewish king, since Solomon's brother (Nathan) didn't become the Jewish king after their father kicked the bucket (Luke 3:31). Nor did Jesus have a claim to be the Jewish king if Jacob's son was only Jesus' adoptive father (Matt 1:16), and the rightful king of the Jews should have been Jesus' half brother. Which is why Jesus family (including his mother and his step father) didn't believe that he was a prophet, let alone the Jewish king (Matt 13:55-58). And why the Romans mocked him as the false "King of the Jews" when they executed him for sedition.

You know it makes sense.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So your answer to my question can we experience the fullness of heaven here on earth while we are alive, is no. You are saying there is no hope for anyone of us of knowing God on earth as is heaven, until the millenium begins, or after we die.
So "salvation" is something that comes when you die, not while you live - or at least you don't get to realize it while you are alive. That's what I gather from your answer.

I do wonder how you arrived at the conclusion that the people of Revelation 7:14,9 are dead people _____________
Also, to me the figurative humble ' sheep-like' people of Matthew 25:31-33,37 are living people on Earth.
So, the great crowd of living people, and the living humble figurative sheep are alive when salvation ( deliverance / rescue) comes to them.
So, when Jesus said to 'endure to the end ' at Matthew 24:13 it would be: either faithful to death, or found faithful alive at the coming 'time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33.
This ' time of separating ' is also the Harvest Time when the genuine 'wheat ' will be separated from the fake ' weed/tares '.