Do you know Daniel from other threads or posts or are you just offended by his writing here and have noticed this only now? What I'm wondering is if you sort of know Daniel and have been bringing up issues like this in other threads and have an ongoing struggle against him or is this a new thing which just started here?
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Proof of Islam?
- Thread starter Wolf Spirit
- Start date
Do you know Daniel from other threads or posts or are you just offended by his writing here and have noticed this only now? What I'm wondering is if you sort of know Daniel and have been bringing up issues like this in other threads and have an ongoing struggle against him or is this a new thing which just started here?
If someone told you a story about Hercules, why wouldn't you believe it?
The pagans never called people "Son of God"? The pagans never worshipped and bowed down to images with human appearances and spoke of their great authorities and powers?
What is wrong with doing as the pagans do, and how do Christians imagine they are not doing very many things like the various pagans who were their ancestors?
Duncan
Member
Well that`s not what I read, you see the only sacred text in Islam is the Quran, but the Baha’is treat the writings of Baha’ullah as sacred as well. The most important of these writings that I am pretty sure you are familiar with are: The Most Holy Book, The Book of Certitude, The Hidden Words, The Seven Valleys, and Epistle to the Son of the Wolf.
So when I said Baha`ullah claim to be God, I didn`t just say that out of the blue, I used what I read from few books that I still have at home, the following are some of his statements:
“There is no God but Me, the Honored, the Wise.” you can find that in Kitabe Aqdas, page 42
“Take what the Ancient Hand gives you.” Kitabe Aqdas, page 96
“There is no God but Me, the securer, the regulator. Certainly We have sent the prophets and revealed the books.” Kitabe Aqdas, page 58
“The God of eternity is in the prison.” this one was from Iqtedarat page 36
“Everything other than Me is created by My command.” Kitabe Mobeen
“I am the Greatest Branch (Abdul-Baha) without any partners.” Behjatus Sudoor
“We Baha’is are certain of the eternal beauty.” Behjatus Sudoor page 217
“Surely I am God. There is no God but me, the Lord of all things. Everything other than Me is My creation, then O My creation you worship Me.” Tajalliyate Baha, Tajalli 4
So that is supposed to be Baha'Ullah talking about himself and not speaking God's words as if from God?
Like, the Quran says things like "I am God" which Muhammed was reciting, an angel was reciting, etc, which were supposed to be God's words about God, so is this not what this Baha'Ullah guy was trying to do or imitating? Or was he saying that he himself is God the way the Christians think Jesus was God? If that is what he was trying to do, why do the Bahai not worship Baha'Ullah or why do they deny he was God and deny that they worship him and make an effort to show and claim he did not say or believe he was God?
Couldn't people easily say that "Muhammed is the author of the Qur'an, reciting its words, so was claiming to be God when the Qur'an says "I am God" or that Gabriel was reciting the Qur'an and claiming "I am God" when the Qur'an says such?
What you have quoted, is it really Baha'Ullah claiming to be God (did you get it from some website claiming that?) or was he just trying to be like Muhammed and say things like the Qur'an and the suggestion was he was speaking God's words, channeling God's dictations, in the manner that people say of Gabriel or Muhammed?
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
These quotes do not come from Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God.
Baha'u'llah says He is the Voice of God, and He speaks for God when He says, for example "there is no God but me" but that is not Baha'u'llah saying He is God.
This is just the typical calumny of those who would try to disparage Baha'u'llah. You can give me anything Baha'u'llah actually wrote and I will tell you what He meant.
Also, it would be the official stance of the Bahai people that Baha'Ullah was God if it was ever deemed that such was his claim, the way Christians frankly make it their official stance that Jesus was God.
The Bahai organization has never to my knowledge made it part of their official beliefs and statements that Baha'Ullah is God incarnate or anything like that, right?
Baha'Ullah may be like a Joseph Smith of Islam? Like "As Joseph Smith was to Christianity, Baha'Ullah was to Islam"
Or better yet, as "Baha'Ullah is now somewhat dated, the time of Dagon is NOW!"
Both the LDS Mormon Church and Bahai believe in new messengers and updates.
Or better yet, as "Baha'Ullah is now somewhat dated, the time of Dagon is NOW!"
Both the LDS Mormon Church and Bahai believe in new messengers and updates.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is a strange statement. Somewhat like a thief telling a judge as to how his case should be considered.
I smell only a crafty talk-talk-talk salesman.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, because we are not limited to looking only at what Baha'u'llah suggested we look at, and even then, if we find dirt we find dirt. We should not just believe the car salesman, we should look under the hood and test drive the car.
“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8
Duncan
Member
Baha`ullah was not a prophet from God to speak his word, the Bahai movement evolved out of a millenarian sect before it, called the Babis, both in Iran, who emerged in a period of great millenarian expectations, for the year 1844 was to mark the 1000th anniversary of the disappearance of the twelfth Imam famed by the Shi’a. This sect, or cult, was founded by one Sayyid ‘Ali Muhammad Shirazi (1819-50), who became known as the Bab, or “Gate.” He earned this label because his followers saw him as the “Gate of the Hidden Imam,” although they later regarded him as the “Gate of God”, the Hidden Imam himself,who was expected to bring an end to Islamic law and usher in a new cycle of prophets and traditions. A man made that has nothing to do with Islam or Jesus or the Bible or the Quran or even God himself.
Yes they can say Oh Muhammed wrote the Quran, they did before and they do today, but did he ? First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia?
Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Quran? (For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in chapter Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Quran, that I cannot state in this short article)
When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldnt possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Quran.
An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.
Mohammad (pbuh) had no reason to come up with something like Quran, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones, and not to mention all the wealth he lost
Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran, for over 23 years?
Also, what the prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Quran, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles. The prophet (peace be upon him) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (peace be upon him) couldn't possibly have written Quran.
Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Quran over 23 years?
Oh hold on I forgot something, maybe the Arabs ( the people of Quraysh ) wrote the Quran, well the answer is no it can`t be the Arabs because what Quran teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture, religion, and gods, that existed before the Quran was revealed. Quran condemns idol worshipping, but the Arabs, loved their idol gods, and worshipped them regularly. Quran raised the status of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs would never write something that goes against their most important belief of idol worshipping. Quran goes against most of the social habbits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling, etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father of ignorance). Quran condemns and prohibits taking interest on money, whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans and businesses. Quran condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas, the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Quran condemns and prohibits gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers. The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the Quran is.
During the time of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), the Arabs would indulge in all the social habbits that the Quran condemns and prohibits. How can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's norms and ideologies?
Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Quran? Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with different ideals and norms decided one day to write Quran? The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Quran, we notice that there is no author! No individual has his/her name written on the cover of Quran! Anytime an individual writes a book, he/she writes his/her name on the cover. The author's name always appears on his/her book, and there is always an author who is credited for writing that book. No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have written the Quran, nor anyone's name ever appeared in front of the Quran as bein the 'author'. This is the only book in the world without an author. No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy Quran, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.
Quran has no author, and no group or individual in Arabia ever claimed to have written it, nor any group or an indvidual recited, taught, and explained Quran except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) and his followers. The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the only Arabian who first practiced, explained, and preached Quran, and ended up making a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue that the only possible source of Quran can be the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and expalin it to the people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that only Mohammad (peace be upon him) could possibly have written it.
That leaves us to our last option: God wrote it!
Chapter 4, Verse 82: "Do they not consider (ponder) on the Quran? If it had been from anyone except Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepency (contradictions)."
Still unsure or doubtful? Quran is the word of Allah. Allah challenges to His creations:
Chapter 2, Verses 23 & 24: "And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to our servant, Then produce a Chapter like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, If you are true. But if you cannot, and surely you cannot, Then fear the fire Whose fuel is men and stones, Which is prepared for those who reject."
I mean there plenty to quote but if you have time try reading and understanding the meaning with explanation of the following verses also! Chapter 10, verse 38 Chapter 11, verse 13 Chapter 17 verse 88
No brother I didn`t get it from a website but from books that I have at home, I put references next to it you can yourself find out.
Which is why I prefer religions which focus away from human beings and their authority and talk more about nature and power and reality instead. I hate anthropomorphism so all the more do I hate anything which overly glorifies any human figure or depends upon them heavily. Any sect which focuses too much on a man type form or figure or appearance is my least favorite, thus LDS Mormon Theology is practically the lowest of all due to their man worship literalist tendencies, Christianity, Buddhism, Jain, and a whole lot more which glorify human forms and figures. My misanthropy and iconoclastic hatred of material forms and anything made of information as powerful or meaningful is pretty up there on the meter, peaking and breaking the guage. I also find people who are too obsessed with people to be on a course that is likely leading to destruction, but it seems it might be genetic or something or some kind of psychological thing related to upbringing which makes people need Guru-God-Men-Spiritual-Daddys or whatever and most people fight over their varieties of what amount to current Saint-Cults and Funerary Cults which were popular in the past as well and existed due to this same tendency existing or developing in people. Very few seem to be able to escape it. They think humans are the pinnacle, when humans are just humans, who love to be praised and heightened, admired, followed, glorified:
Why do you have those books or how did you get hold of them and for what purpose? What do you think of them and why?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course you believe that, you are a Muslim. But that does not mean it is true. You have no more proof of your beliefs than I do. The Baha'i Faith is not a movement, it is a divinely revealed religion of God, just like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Bab and Baha'u'llah received a Revelation from God, just as Muhammad did.
Because Muhammad got His knowledge from God, just like Baha'u'llah who only had a rudimentary education.
Muhammad did what He did for the sake of God, just like Baha'u'llah did.
The Revelation of Baha'u'llah was revealed over a period of 40 years, from 1852-1892
The Baha'is do not believe Arabs wrote the Qur'an. We believe it was revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel and it was dictated by Muhammad to scribes who wrote it down later.
God cannot write. Only men can write. The Qur'an is a Revelation from God through Muhammad.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Baha'u'llah was speaking God's words, just as Muhammad did in the Qur'an.
Yes, it is exactly the same. Baha'u'llah's Revelation came through a Maid of Heaven. I am not sure if all if it came that way, but part of it did.
No, Baha'u'llah was not saying He was God, and neither did Jesus!!!!!! Christians deified Jesus.
Bahais do not worship Baha'u'llah at all, period, end of story. Baha'u'llah enjoined us to worship only God.
“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210
No, not at all, if they understood who was saying what. I could easily explain this by quoting some of Baha'u'llah's Writings and explaining how He was speaking for God.
He was speaking for God, as God's Voice, just like Muhammad.
In what respect do Bahai and Muslims differ? In what respect is the teaching of the Qur'an different from the writings and suggestions if the Bab and Baha'Ullah? None? If the Bahai follow the "5 pillars" and follow the Qur'an, are they not just a variety of Muslim?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for making that very logical point. Obviously it would be central Baha'i teaching that Baha'u'llah was God, if we believed that. A central Baha'i teaching is that the Unseen God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to men, as Christians believe Jesus did. In bold below is an example of Baha'u'llah speaking for God, as I was explaining in my last post.
“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
No, it certainly hasn't, so all of such accusations are calumny, designed to discredit Baha'u'llah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is a difficult question for me to answer since I do not know everything that is in the Qur'an.
Suffice to say that the Baha'i Faith is not an offshoot of Islam; it is an independent Revelation from God and it has new social teachings and new laws as well as a new message from God, as noted below..
Some of the central teachings of Baha'u'llah are as follows: Bahá'í teachings - Wikipedia
The primary underpinning of the Baha'i Faith is Progressive Revelation
Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1 ]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i
The primary message of Baha'u'llah that was new for this age in history is the unity of mankind.
“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286
“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.
The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Why do we need to follow uneducated people? It was perhaps OK for Arabia in 7th Century. But why in 19th Century?
Contents (19th century in science - Wikipedia):
1 Mathematics
2 Physics
2.1 Laws of thermodynamics
2.2 James Clerk Maxwell
3 Chemistry
4 Engineering and technology
5 Biology and medicine
5.1 Medicine
6 Social sciences
7 People
8 References
"Among the most influential ideas of the 19th century were those of Charles Darwin (alongside the independent researches of Alfred Russel Wallace), who in 1859 published the book The Origin of Species, which introduced the idea of evolution by natural selection. Another important landmark in medicine and biology were the successful efforts to prove the germ theory of disease. Following this, Louis Pasteur made the first vaccine against rabies, and also made many discoveries in the field of chemistry, including the asymmetry of crystals. In chemistry, Dmitri Mendeleev, following the atomic theory of John Dalton, created the first periodic table of elements. In physics, the experiments, theories and discoveries of Michael Faraday, Andre-Marie Ampere, James Clerk Maxwell, and their contemporaries led to the creation of electromagnetism as a new branch of science. Thermodynamics led to an understanding of heat and the notion of energy was defined.
Other highlights include the discoveries unveiling the nature of atomic structure and matter, simultaneously with chemistry – and of new kinds of radiation. In astronomy, the planet Neptune was discovered. In mathematics, the notion of complex numbers finally matured and led to a subsequent analytical theory; they also began the use of hypercomplex numbers. Karl Weierstrass and others carried out the arithmetization of analysis for functions of real and complex variables. It also saw rise to new progress in geometry beyond those classical theories of Euclid, after a period of nearly two thousand years. The mathematical science of logic likewise had revolutionary breakthroughs after a similarly long period of stagnation. But the most important step in science at this time were the ideas formulated by the creators of electrical science. Their work changed the face of physics and made possible for new technology to come about such as electric power, electrical telegraphy, the telephone, and radio."
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Wrong. Bahaollah claimed to be a manifestation of Allah.
Manifestation, according to Dictionary.com is: outward or perceptible indication; materialization: At first there was no manifestation of the disease; a public demonstration, as for political effect; Spiritualism. a materialization.
So basically, Allah materialized in form of Bahaollah. He and his successors coined a new word, since prophet, messenger, son, mahdi, were already in use (one has to produce something new to be able to sell).
You need to choose a title by which people will know you. Everyone has done it. How should we address you?
Perhaps you can be an Imam or Caliph or Wali-Allah. There is no bar in using these terms repeatedly.
Caliph (Khalifa in Hindi)! Now, that is interesting. Would you like to be one? Here is your chance.
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