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Hinduism and the Bible

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
IOW - there is lot to explore - with one significant exception to the Abrahamic faiths - there is zero threat of consequences like eternal torture etc

The development of the doctrine of hell in the Abrahamic faiths is extremely complicated, far more so than the popular understanding entails. I am also led to believe (please correct me of wrong) that the Dvaita philosopher Sri Madhva believed in eternal damnation as a possible afterlife state, involving a purgatory of neverending reincarnations (i.e. never being free from samsara)?

As an example of the nuance of early Christian thought on this doctrine, consider the church father Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253) writing in his De Principiis (Book II).

For him, hell is a psycho-spiritual state of ignorance and its attendant consequences upon the soul, rather than a judgement imposed externally by God involving literal hellfire or tortures:


CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


4. We find in the prophet Isaiah, that the fire with which each one is punished is described as his own; for he says, Walk in the light of your own fire, and in the flame which you have kindled. By these words it seems to be indicated that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire, and is not plunged into some fire which has been already kindled by another, or was in existence before himself. Of this fire the fuel and food are our sins, which are called by the Apostle Paul wood, and hay, and stubble.

And I think that, as abundance of food, and provisions of a contrary kind and amount, breed fevers in the body, and fevers, too, of different sorts and duration, according to the proportion in which the collected poison supplies material and fuel for disease (the quality of this material, gathered together from different poisons, proving the causes either of a more acute or more lingering disease); so, when the soul has gathered together a multitude of evil works, and an abundance of sins against itself, at a suitable time all that assembly of evils boils up to punishment, and is set on fire to chastisements; when the mind itself, or conscience, receiving by divine power into the memory all those things of which it had stamped on itself certain signs and forms at the moment of sinning, will see a kind of history, as it were, of all the foul, and shameful, and unholy deeds which it has done, exposed before its eyes: then is the conscience itself harassed, and, pierced by its own goads, becomes an accuser and a witness against itself.

And this, I think, was the opinion of the Apostle Paul himself, when he said, Their thoughts mutually accusing or excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel. From which it is understood that around the substance of the soul certain tortures are produced by the hurtful affections of sins themselves.

8. But the outer darkness, in my judgment, is to be understood not so much of some dark atmosphere without any light, as of those persons who, being plunged in the darkness of profound ignorance, have been placed beyond the reach of any light of the understanding...


This ancient Alexandrian Christian understanding of the metaphorical nature of hellfire and the 'outer darkness' as a state of being, characterised by ignorance and the pain of conscience wrestling with one's mistakes in life, was complemented by the near-contemporary Eastern Christian belief expressed by the Syriac Church Father Saint Isaac the Syrian (a 7th century father, venerated as a saint in both the Catholic & Eastern Christian churches) that heaven and hell are both postmortem encounters with the Love of God, albeit experienced differently as a result of the different conditions of souls:


Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and more violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to suppose that sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love.. is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion – remorse.’

[St. Isaac of Nineveh, ‘Ascetic Treatises’, p 326]​


If we consider the collections of books in Hebrew Bible and the New Testament (remember - they are a 'library', not a synthesised dogmatic framework as later theologies became) a variety of afterlife doctrines are posited.

The traditional Hebraic understanding (pre-Second Temple) had been closer to that voiced by Koheleth in the Book of Ecclesiastes and the Greek Epicureans who were contemporaries in the Hellenistic world: there was a God of Israel who created the universe, He was eternal and had revealed the Torah, but human beings simply lived short, mutable lives in which meaning was to be found through more fleshly, corporal means and earthly happiness (like long life, food, wine, cheer, marriage, the festivals, the pursuit of wisdom and learning from the sages) and most importantly the survival of Israel itself, and it's continuing faithfulness to the Torah from generation to generation.

There was, as yet, no clear notion of an eternal afterlife existence of some immutable consciousness within each person or of any resurrection of the dead - only of a kind of obscure sheol (grave, underworld) where the shadows of the people that had been in life (shades, the rephaim) lingered.

As Isaiah informs us in the Nevi'im: "For Sheol (the abode of the dead, the grave) does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." (Isaiah 38:18). Nothing, as Koheleth writes in Ecclesiastes: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

We get hints every now and then of a hope - in the Psalms, in Isaiah - of there just maybe being something beyond sheol, like ransom from it or a continued consciousness after death, but it all remains rather agnostic and eminently pragmatic.

In the Book of Acts in the New Testament we learn: "The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, or angel, or spirit; but the Pharisees acknowledge all three." (Acts 23:8) These were two competing sects of Judaism in the time of Jesus - one, the Sadducean priestly class, committed to a 'materialist' view of the soul (in which it is merely a spark of reason and dies with the body) and the Pharisees who acknowledge all three afterlife doctrines, including the immortality of the soul.

Of the former sect, Josephus likewise says in his Antiquities XVIII, 11-17:

But the doctrine of the Sadducees is that souls die with the bodies. Nor do they regard as obligatory the observance of anything besides what the law enjoins them

(continued...)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
On the other hand, the postmortem survival of the soul is found (assumed) by Jesus in the gospels: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul" (Matthew 10:28).

Here, Jesus distinguishes - in substance-dualistic, Platonizing Jewish style - between 'body and soul', with the latter being able to separate from the former in death (it cannot be destroyed). Scholars have frequently noted the assumed dualist framework behind this statement.

But this belief in postmortem survival of consciousness was by no means an 'assumption' that one could just make on the basis of the Tanakh, which contains a range of opinions, some of them seemingly openly materialist.

It emerges, unquestionably, in the writings of Second Temple Jews who had been exposed to Hellenistic philosophy, for example the Book of Wisdom in the Catholic and Orthodox Old Testament: “As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.” (Wisdom 8:10-19). Here the soul is explicitly identified with the I of awareness, conscious experience and first person perspective. Likewise, Wisdom 9:15 establishes that the soul and mind are the exact same entity: "for a perishable body weighs down the soul, and this earthly tent burdens the thoughtful mind.” It tells us that: "the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. In the eyes of the foolish they seemed to have died, and their departure was thought to be a disaster, and their going from us to be their destruction; but they are at peace." (Wisdom 3:1-3) or as Paul would put it the soul will be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8) and "I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body" (Philippians 1:23-24).

This text, morever, strongly condemns materialism:


"For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves,
“Short and sorrowful is our life,
and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end,
and no one has been known to return from Hades.
2 For we were born by mere chance,
and hereafter we shall be as though we had never been,
for the breath in our nostrils is smoke,
and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts;
3 when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes,
and the spirit will dissolve like empty air…

21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray"


(Wisdom 2:1-3; 21)


In 2 Corinthians 5:4, Paul employs a metaphor describing the human body as a temporary earthly tent, weighing down the I/We inside the body. “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden . . . .” (2 Corinthians 5:1, 4.)

So, afterlife doctrines are by no means "stable" in the Abrahamic faith tradition: the Bible itself espouses a myriad of conflicting philosophical perspectives from materialism (denial of any survival of consciousness after death) to immortality of the soul and resurrection of the dead.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The development of the doctrine of hell in the Abrahamic faiths is extremely complicated, far more so than the popular understanding entails. I am also led to believe (please correct me of wrong) that the Dvaita philosopher Sri Madhva believed in eternal damnation as a possible afterlife state, involving a purgatory of neverending reincarnations (i.e. never being free from samsara)?

Thank you Vouthon for bringing that up. You are correct. But, dvaita is one step -- specifically when the mind entertains the notion of separate selves very strongly. It is often called 'aarambhavaada'. 'aarambha' is 'the beginning' and 'vaada' is 'philosophy'.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
This may be a hard one. So my question. Does accepting the Bible's teachings lead one to some very anti-Hindu perspectives on account the Bible seems to be against polytheism and idol worship?

Exodus 20:3-5
Exodus 20:4-6

Now my last sentence is of course flexible statements. Some might argue Christianity has multiple gods, and that it's of course not so black and white that Hindu people worship idols, and say that is what the Bible meant, and that Hindu people just use them in practice. But do you expect that to always be taken into account?

But looking at the overall picture, if one wishes to put themselves at a point firmly within the Hindu faith, should they accept the Bible because doing so helps others accept them, or should they take a very cautious approach because this very book could cause some pretty anti-Hindu views, even if it's arguable whether they are perfectly spelled out?

And to further make the connection that the Bible could cause anti-Hindu perspectives, I will put it like this... I'd say most people of the Abrahamic faith love their God. Yet according to the Bible, God hates other gods and graven images. When one loves another, they tend to dislike the obstacles in their loved one's path most of the time.

I'm not saying I firmly believe everything I have written here. Not real firmly. But I don't want to write more that will soften my thoughts, without first hearing some perspectives.

That depends on what makes you pursue a God. Humans need a God simply because it is out of human capability to reach a future, especially one after our death. Only a God can provide the answers.

If the US government has an important message for its citizens, what should it do? To deliver the message to all states or just one or two of them? Christianity is about how God has a message about a future to be delivered to all mankind. Christianity is thus mankind facing all the times since day one, with the explicit command that the gospel needs to be preached to each and every nations. While Hinduism is Indian facing all the times. Its gods don't have a message for you.


Thus we don't need anything anti-Hinduism at the theological level. Naturally their gods are not the gods for you.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It would be more shocking to have a Ganesha murthi at the door of a Christian home. But you are highly unlikely to see that. The liberal Hindus will have a picture of Jesus, Buddha, etc. up. yes. But it's not that common. Most likely it was a gift fro some proselytiser of history, and Hindus don't like to insult their guests.
Yes, and the fact that he only saw this in one location after being there for two months sorta confirms this.

Personally, since I have long considered Gandhi to be my main religious mentor, my attitude is more aligned with his on this which, granted, is and was not par for the course within Hinduism or any other religion.

BTW, are you familiar with Fr. Pierre de Chardin and his approach? Sorta goes in Gandhi's direction on this, although the Vatican back then wasn't too pleased with him. But what a difference a few decades makes.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes, and the fact that he only saw this in one location after being there for two months sorta confirms this.

Personally, since I have long considered Gandhi to be my main religious mentor, my attitude is more aligned with his on this which, granted, is and was not par for the course within Hinduism or any other religion.

BTW, are you familiar with Fr. Pierre de Chardin and his approach? Sorta goes in Gandhi's direction on this, although the Vatican back then wasn't too pleased with him. But what a difference a few decades makes.
Never heard of Fr. Pierre de Chardin.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible teaches us to use our minds, our common sense
This common sense tells us why should we worship something which somebody's hands have made
This same common sense tells us, to think

source.gif


Isaiah 44:9-20 New International Version (NIV)

All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.
Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit nothing?
People who do that will be put to shame;
such craftsmen are only human beings.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and shame.

laguna_roadtrip_07-photo-by-jay-javier.jpg


The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.
The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in human form,
human form in all its glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine
.

images


He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
It is used as fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.

Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”

PH_Urban_woman-cooking.jpg


From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me! You are my god!


images


They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,

images


“Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
“Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”


View attachment 40284
I don't see a significant amount of thinking involved in this post.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
@Vouthon

As usual many thanks for the treatise

I looked up the issue as well and found that "hell" is not mentioned in the KJV - but only in NASB

There are 4 words
Gehanna
Hades
Tartarus
Sheol

In the NASB the word Gehanna appears 12 times I believe and Tartarus once - interesting that there is dissonance among the different versions / editions of the Bible

Gehanna was the pit outside Jerusalem where people left unwanted things to burn. It was never intended to mean a permanent lake of fire - according to my discussion with Deeje earlier on.

I was thinking more of Surah 3:85 from the Qu'ran which appears to be more definitive
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science is science as science in any language science.

Science is the reason humans espouse creation themes and evaluations of powers and forces.

Hence if a science practice, to trans mutate the body of the stone O a round planet, by O pi calculations and inferred O PHI conditions.....then G O D relative to O light timed 12 evaluations, O pi beginnings to calculate states for human sciences....then G O D was given a contextual scientific agreement in the past to be the only relativity of explaining what was caused to the atmosphere.

Beginning with the philosophical scientific theories/thesis/themes....to actual string relative design building actualising machine reactive conditions to the reaction itself.

Science and MATHS O relating to conditions of taking physical mass of the O body of the planet and then incurring reactive purposefully forced changes.

By males historically as the scientific inventor of all human stated themes.

Why the Creator themes relate human conscious self expressed idealism....for only a male with a penis is a male...and only a female with a vagina is a female.....and the Garden nature is an androgynous body.

Hence it is proven that themes about Gods is a philosophical reasoning first.

Whereas energy O x mass first exists with planetary ownership, for as stated as a scientific relative teaching, you cannot hold containment of the heavenly gases as they sit in deep empty space.

Why the review O G O D and pi equated to be above and beyond all other philosophical reasoning as a human being ancient attempt to remove the belief of thesis against self survival.

Why its teachings were stated to be of utmost importance in science relativity of self expression.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
giphy.gif


Hence if a science practice, to trans mutate the body of the stone O a round planet, by O pi calculations and inferred O PHI conditions.....then G O D relative to O light timed 12 evaluations, O pi beginnings to calculate states for human sciences....then G O D was given a contextual scientific agreement in the past to be the only relativity of explaining what was caused to the atmosphere.

I don't understand your response at all.

Mind boggling isn't it?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science is science as science in any language science.

Science is the reason humans espouse creation themes and evaluations of powers and forces.

Hence if a science practice, to trans mutate the body of the stone O a round planet, by O pi calculations and inferred O PHI conditions.....then G O D relative to O light timed 12 evaluations, O pi beginnings to calculate states for human sciences....then G O D was given a contextual scientific agreement in the past to be the only relativity of explaining what was caused to the atmosphere.

Beginning with the philosophical scientific theories/thesis/themes....to actual string relative design building actualising machine reactive conditions to the reaction itself.

Science and MATHS O relating to conditions of taking physical mass of the O body of the planet and then incurring reactive purposefully forced changes.

By males historically as the scientific inventor of all human stated themes.

Why the Creator themes relate human conscious self expressed idealism....for only a male with a penis is a male...and only a female with a vagina is a female.....and the Garden nature is an androgynous body.

Hence it is proven that themes about Gods is a philosophical reasoning first.

Whereas energy O x mass first exists with planetary ownership, for as stated as a scientific relative teaching, you cannot hold containment of the heavenly gases as they sit in deep empty space.

Why the review O G O D and pi equated to be above and beyond all other philosophical reasoning as a human being ancient attempt to remove the belief of thesis against self survival.

Why its teachings were stated to be of utmost importance in science relativity of self expression.


You claimed in Satanism that a circle is a burnt radiation that surrounds the stone O body.

In ancient history the theme O God was sealed by water, not by radiation, so it never owned a round O radiation burnt not circle figure.

Science says a O circle is just a line of radiation held in a circle...as a black burnt body theme...that then filled in the circle O with gases.

History says O the Earth sealed with water mass....volcanic released since.

What science minds are confused by.

UFO radiation mass, was involved in water mass evaporation that removed the presence UFO radiation, and spatial vacuum sucked the UFO out of the atmosphere, the same as it does today, it shoots off in cooling/lightening of its mass.

You do machine science which places pi O first with the stone.

O pi signals consciously are first with the water/gas light burning/cold gases cooling that puts O God the gases from out of stone rotating as Christ gases...why you argue about Christ being God O movement of pi is on the face of the deep water/atmospheric mass....where your consciousness first says O highest God state O pi.

As a consciousness.

Therefore any thing else you claim is science is fakery.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Does accepting the Bible's teachings lead one to some very anti-Hindu perspectives on account the Bible seems to be against polytheism and idol worship?
Well, you can't be a monotheist and a
polytheist at the same time. It was written for Israelites to remain loyal.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
We all know that wood is wood
It came from a tree
Part of it could be used as firewood

upload_2020-5-30_19-2-5.jpeg


Part of it could be manufactured into something useful which people like to hoard

upload_2020-5-30_19-1-33.jpeg


Why should part of it become a god?
Did God order people to worship carved images and say that would be alright?
This is what we can find in the Bible:

Isaiah 42:8 Amplified Bible (AMP)

“I am the Lord, that is My Name;
My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved idols.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Thus we don't need anything anti-Hinduism at the theological level. Naturally their gods are not the gods for you.
Provided if that Hindu believes in God/Gods/Goddesses. There are those who do not. And I am a staunch Hindu and one of the strongest atheists in the forum.
 
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