Can all religions lead to God?

[YoursTrue]

Was it Jesus who said God was the Creator of the first man and woman?

I understand how they changed their mind and realized what wasn't true, but and how do they know what is true?

Yes, Jesus said at Matthew 19: "Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
Also, Pontius Pilate when questioning Jesus up for trial, asked him, "What is truth"? And Jesus did not answer any more.
John 18, Jesus spoke to Pilate: “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” 38“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him."

 

[Trailblazer]

Progressive revelation, for me, does not deal with tribal religious beliefs. The whole held those beliefs and it kept that tribe together for hundreds of years. Some had shamans and vision quests and spirit animals guiding them. They had creation myths. Myths about their God. And prophecies about what was going to happen in the future. We still have tribal beliefs today, like the Hopi's in Arizona. And there is another tribe still following their ancient beliefs, the tribes of Judah. Baha'is do take their myths and add them into the Baha'i religion.

Just because tribes had religious beliefs, that does not mean that they were revealed by God. Creation myths are myths, they are not revelations from God. How do you think Baha'is take their myths and add them into the Baha'i religion, or were you meaning to say that they don’t?

But do they do the same with the myths of the Greeks and Romans? Or other "pagan" people? The myths of the Far East... like Shintoism? Even the myths of the people of India? Baha'is barely touch on them. So, for me, progressive revelation is an inadequate explanation about how religions have evolved or progressed.

Progressive revelation is not supposed to explain how religions have evolved or progressed. Myths are not part of the progressive revelation from God. They are myths.

Well, for one thing, if you're going to buy a new car, which make would you chose? Then what model of car... or maybe a truck would better suit your needs? If so, a big truck, a small truck, a six or eight cylinder? A gas or diesel? Or maybe a Tesla electric truck? Then do you want some extras that aren't included? What color? Then you test drive it. Then you put a down payment on it and maybe a trade in and are now stuck with monthly payments.

I never bought a new car and I never went through that comparison process when I bought a used car. I did not need to because I recognized the car I wanted pretty soon after looking at cars and then I bought the car. I had those cars for close to 20 years. I never sold a car in my life, I just waited until they died or got wrecked. I did the same thing with the three houses I have bought and I still own all of them. I did the same thing with my husband; I did not shop around, I married him three weeks after we met and we are still married 35 years later. I have had my problems with the houses and the cars and the husband, but that is no reason to get rid of them.

I did the same with religion, I did not need to look very far before I found a religion I wanted, and I saw no need to compare it to other religions or to dump it when the going got rough.

To be an effective Baha'i teacher, and because the Baha'i Faith says that all the major religions are one, then that is why I think they should learn a little bit about several religions. I think not to do so makes a Baha'i too much like those that only know their religion and don't want to know about any other religion.

Why the double standard? Why don’t you think Jews or Christians or Muslims need to know about all the other religions? How can Christians teach those of other religions if all they know is Christianity? You cannot use progressive revelation as a reason why Baha’is need to know about older religions because we believe that religion has progressed so we believe that the previous dispensations have been abrogated.

I'm talking about "governing." Let's not say your whole city is Baha'i, but let's say 10,000 people out of a city of 100,000. How is the LSA going to govern all those people? Knowing that many people are falling into the cracks already even in small communities, how is the Baha'i Faith going to meet the needs of such a large amount of people? Will they start schools? Will there be several Baha'is that get together and start businesses that incorporate Baha'i ideals? That pay fair wages or maybe have profit sharing? Provide health care and child care? Won't the LSA members just be ordinary Baha'is? Or will people with knowledge and abilities to govern people and get things done be elected? Will the LSA have to judge cases about grievances between Baha'is? So will the LSA have members that have knowledge of the laws and how to judge? Will they be more like CEO's and delegate to others and form committees and departments that specialize in the different things necessary to run a large community of people? In other words, will it get to the point where they start doing all the things that a secular government is doing? But, it will be for the Baha's and the secular government will be for everybody.

Then, let's say, the Baha'i Faith grows even more in that city. Let's say 60,000 people. They are now the majority. And let's say that the Baha'is are doing a better more fair, more just and with little or no corruption. Why keep the secular government? Why keep partisan politics? Why wouldn't the people let the Baha'i methods run the whole city? Next question... could they? Or, will they become just as bad a bureaucracy as we already have? Will the leaders of the city really only be nine Baha'is elected by all the other Baha'is? How are those nine going to run everything? Since they probably aren't? How are Baha'is going to run whole cities? Or, even the 10,000 people in a large city?

Nobody knows what the future holds and why does it even matter. It matters no more to me than the past matters. I live fully in the present.

My understanding is that governments will adopt Baha’i principles and practices, not that the Baha’is will run things. That is all I really know. Other Baha’is might know more than me.

 

[YoursTrue]

How are you with your beliefs? Do you think your beliefs are the only true ones, or do you allow for others to be at least partially right?

OK, to answer that I first must say that (1) I am not perfect and (2) my beliefs can be affected by thoughts of my own and from others, and (3) if someone is saying something that resonates well with me I will agree with it. If someone, however, tells me that the human race will go extinct some day, I will have to refer to the Bible as the basis for my sure belief and show them that the righteous will live forever.
Psalm 37:29 "The righteous will inherit the land, and they will dwell in it forever."

 

[Trailblazer]

Sometimes a person is looking for the truth about God and they pray for enlightenment. And God reads the heart and he can give it to them. When I was finally searching, I prayed to a God I didn't know anything about. God answered my prayer by allowing me to understand more about the Bible. Other than that, I can't answer you now. If one is not looking, or searching and thinks he is satisfied, there is nothing to reveal or change.

But what is someone already looked and searched and found what "they believed" to be the truth? Is there a reason why they should be searching for another religion? I believe that a true seeker continues to seek truth for all of their life, but that does not mean they have to question the religion they already searched for and found.

And there is a logical problem when people say that God led them to the truth. I mean if people from different religions all say that God led them to the truth, and the truths they were led to contradict each other, how could they all have been led by God? Would God contradict Himself?

As far as religion goes, I believe that more than one religion is true, so it is possible that someone prayed and God answered verifying the truth from a particular religion which did not contradict a truth from another religion. Where it becomes problematic is when Christians say they were led by the Holy Spirit and they have different understandings of the same verses that are contradictory. That does not work for me because it makes no sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, Jesus said at Matthew 19: "Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."

Okay, but that did not work out very well did it, as divorce runs rampant among Christians, just like everyone else.

Also, Pontius Pilate when questioning Jesus up for trial, asked him, "What is truth"? And Jesus did not answer any more.
John 18, Jesus spoke to Pilate: “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” 38“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him."

That still does not explain how people know what is truth.

 

[YoursTrue]

But what is someone already looked and searched and found what "they believed" to be the truth? Is there a reason why they should be searching for another religion? I believe that a true seeker continues to seek truth for all of their life, but that does not mean they have to question the religion they already searched for and found.

And there is a logical problem when people say that God led them to the truth. I mean if people from different religions all say that God led them to the truth, and the truths they were led to contradict each other, how could they all have been led by God? Would God contradict Himself?

As far as religion goes, I believe that more than one religion is true, so it is possible that someone prayed and God answered verifying the truth from a particular religion which did not contradict a truth from another religion. Where it becomes problematic is when Christians say they were led by the Holy Spirit and they have different understandings of the same verses that are contradictory. That does not work for me because it makes no sense.

I have met or heard about those who receive special visions but I don't believe they are from God, even if they say they are. The reason is because I believe the Bible is the Revelation of God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay, but that did not work out very well did it, as divorce runs rampant among Christians, just like everyone else.

That still does not explain how people know what is truth.

Ok. You asked if Jesus said God created man and woman and I showed you the scripture.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have met or heard about those who receive special visions but I don't believe they are from God, even if they say they are. The reason is because I believe the Bible is the Revelation of God.

I believe that too, so if people say they have special visions from God that contradict the Bible I do not believe those visions are from God. There was a man like that on this forum a few months ago. He said he heard from God in an NDE and God told him this and that, but it completely contradicted what the Bible says so I knew it was bunk. It also contradicted what Baha'u'llah wrote so I knew it could not be true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. You asked if Jesus said God created man and woman and I showed you the scripture.

You did show me that but I was referring to something else you said:

YoursTrue said: So that person changed his mind (beliefs) about who or what God is or is not. Maybe he studied other beliefs and decided they were true rather than his former beliefs. Some people won't admit that they don't know what is true in any case.

Trailblazer said: I understand how they changed their mind and realized what wasn't true, but and how do they know what is true?

 

[Prophetic_Response]

Many people who are considered humble and tolerant will say that all religions are useful for "bettering" oneself and have a similar core message: kindness and love toward your neighbor. Proselytizing is considered to be cruel and intolerant.

1. Isn't this avoiding the "truth" question? They cannot all logically be completely true if they contradict each other on core thing such as who "God" is?

2. Is it really arrogant and intolerant for someone to believe that he knows the truth and that it is loving to share that truth with others?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 KJV

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13‭-‬14 KJV

Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it. Any questions?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 KJV

The salient problem is that Jesus did not say: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me for all of eternity.

I believe that Jesus was the only way to the Father during His Dispensation, but not for all of eternity.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 7:13‭-‬14 KJV

The salient problem with that is that you do not know who Jesus was referring to in those verses. Who are the few?
These verses cannot apply to all the Christians living in this age since they are no longer a few.

 

[Deeje]

Great, now that you've told me I can't use my ignorance as an excuse.

You asked the questions and the Bible provides the answers.....its one story that starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation......did you take nothing more than this from my response? Although you are absolutely right....once you are told the truth...there is no excuse for ignorance.

Did you really want the answers?

 

[Trailblazer]

There are no verses that imply Jesus is God? Wow, I didn't know that. Christians told me that Jesus said he and his Father were one. And then that Jesus told a paralyzed man that his sins were forgiven and to get up and walk. Some of the people accused him of blasphemy, because only God could forgive sins. Then Jesus asked them what was easier to tell a person that their sins were forgiven or to tell them to get up and walk? Since the crippled man was healed and got up and walked, Jesus was implying that he did also forgive the man of his sins, which was implying that he had the authority to do things that only God could do.

I and my Father are one does not mean that Jesus was God.

Jesus was the Son of God but the Son is not the Father even though the Father is in the Son.

Jesus was a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21) meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that the Manifestation of God, in this case Jesus, and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to the Manifestation of God, all His acts and doings, as well as whatever He ordains and forbids, is identical with the Will of God Himself.

That is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Baha'u'llah also wrote that Jesus had the power to forgive sins -- This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! -- but that does not mean that Jesus was God, even though that is what Jews believed.

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

Obviously they were lying to me. Maybe I should have read the NT for myself instead of trusting those no good lying Christians. Actually, if you would of said that they misinterpreted some verses that maybe, possibly could be seen to imply he was God, that is not the correct interpretation of those verses. Jesus is one in spirit with God.

No, they were not lying, they simply misunderstood what those verses meant. I just explained that above.

That God gave Jesus authority to forgive sins, but it is clear that God is spirit and doesn't incarnate into a human body. Jesus was a perfectly polished mirror and reflected God. Like if you saw the physical Sun in a mirror. Some might say that reflection was the Sun, but technically they'd be wrong. A reflection isn't the real thing.

I can see you have the Baha'i beliefs down pat. Good for you.

If the Baha'is are right, none of it is necessarily right. They got a make-believe story of a resurrection and ascension in it. They have a make believe story of God speaking from heaven. They have a make believe story of dead people coming out of their graves. They have a make believe story of Satan tempting Jesus. None of it, according to the Baha'is, really happened. And those things weren't merely implied, those were things that the writers said really happened. So if you don't believe those things, then of course you're not going to believe something that the early Christians came up with that at best was only implied in the NT. And that's the travesty? No, the whole NT, if not literally true, is a travesty, because it has misled people for 2000 years.

There is certainly some truth to what you are saying about it being a travesty given how many people were misled for 2000 years. The Bible is a plethora of verses that were misunderstood and that could never be straightened out by anyone but a Manifestation of God.

Daniel Chapter 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[YoursTrue]

The salient problem is that Jesus did not say: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me for all of eternity.

I believe that Jesus was the only way to the Father during His Dispensation, but not for all of eternity.

The salient problem with that is that you do not know who Jesus was referring to in those verses. Who are the few?
These verses cannot apply to all the Christians living in this age since they are no longer a few.

Have you ever thought that he might have been referring to everybody, including those who consider themselves Christian? Since there are so many denominations among those called Christian, he could have also been applying it to those claiming to worship God. Few would find the narrow road and stay on it.

 

[YoursTrue]

It doesn't matter does it? Baha'is aren't going to believe it. Whether it was a first man and woman or an amoeba, somebody or something got life started. But there's still more questions that I'd ask about the Bible story. Was the first man and woman really the Adam and Eve of the Bible? Since the Bible says how many years these first people lived, we can add up the numbers and see that the Bible is saying that the Earth isn't more than 10,000 years old. Then it says these first humans lived for hundreds of years. So by the time we're done asking questions about the Bible creation story, the less it sounds like it is true... except to those that take the Bible to be very, very literal.

The earth is certainly much older than several thousands of years. The earth was there when God began making it ready for habitation. But Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day, not a literal 24 hour period. And from the dating in the Bible, mankind (not the earth which is much older) is approximately 6,000 years old. Plants and animals have been around much longer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you ever thought that he might have been referring to everybody, including those who consider themselves Christian? Since there are so many denominations among those called Christian, he could have also been applying it to those claiming to worship God. Few would find the narrow road and stay on it.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

This is what I consider an eternal spiritual truth, so I do not think He was only referring to Christians. Few will be able to get through the narrow gate and follow the road that leads to eternal life because it is difficult to do what is required.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
.

 

[YoursTrue]

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

This is what I consider an eternal spiritual truth, so I do not think He was only referring to Christians. Few will be able to get through the narrow gate and follow the road that leads to eternal life because it is difficult to do what is required.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
.

One cannot, or should not, get on the narrow road unless they believe it is something better than the broad road. And Jesus was not speaking only about Christians. He was speaking about a narrow road that leads to life, and the broad road that leads to destruction. There are two roads. One is narrow, the other is broad.

 

[Milton Platt]

You know what's interesting and in harmony with your explanation in the first part of your answer? The disciples had questions of Jesus. And Thomas said he didn't believe that Jesus was resurrected. Jesus took the time to show him he was. As for the rest of your post, I can only tell you briefly my experience. I finally, after years of claiming there is no God, I finally prayed and asked God, if he was there, to let me know. Because I needed to know. He did, although it's been a struggle and joy. I found Him finally and He let me know. If you want to find Him, He can let you know. 2 Chronicles 15:1,2. "he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you when you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you."

If you are communicating with something, how do you know it is a god, let alone a particular god? What objective way do you have to assess the experience outside of your own mind?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are communicating with something, how do you know it is a god, let alone a particular god? What objective way do you have to assess the experience outside of your own mind?

There is no objective way to know, so there is no way we can know if others really experienced what they claim to have experienced, since only they know what they experienced... Moreover, they "believe" it was God, but they cannot really know it was God. Moreover, many Christians say that God spoke to them but since they say very different things, that presents a logical problem, since God would not contradict Himself. So who is God really speaking to?

I will use any excuse to talk to you.... Milton, one of my favorite atheists.

 

[Milton Platt]

There is no objective way to know, so there is no way we can know if others really experienced what they claim to have experienced, since only they know what they experienced... Moreover, they "believe" it was God, but they cannot really know it was God. Moreover, many Christians say that God spoke to them but since they say very different things, that presents a logical problem, since God would not contradict Himself. So who is God really speaking to?

I will use any excuse to talk to you.... Milton, one of my favorite atheists.

The question is not who is god speaking to, but is he speaking at all.......without any way to know, I think that it is all in the mind of the believer. Why is it that a Christian never hears from a Hindu god or a Hindu never hears from a Christian god? Curious.