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A call to atheists...let's have at the Ten Commandments

Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Emsy said:
But you didn't really ask anything.

It really just sounded like an angry rant that was punctuated with a call for people to tell you how good your rant was.
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Emsy, at the risk of derailing my own thread, let me point out that in the OP I mentioned the Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts by FSM (the Flying Spaghetti Monster). Here they are listed for you below, and let me just say this -- as a foundation for a moral code for humans, I find these to be a couple of orders of magnitude more useful than the Ten Commandments.

Eight I’d Really Rather You Didn'ts
  1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like A Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou *** When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.
  2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.
  3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This Through You Thick Heads: Woman=Person, Man=Person. Samey-Samey. One is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal And Fuchsia.
  4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off The TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.
  5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B*******.
  6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build multi million-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/ Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick): A. Ending Poverty B. Curing Diseases C. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable. I Might Be A Complex Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM The Creator.
  7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go around Telling People I Talk To you. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?
  8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses Alot Of Leather/Lubrication/Las Vegas. If The Other Person Is Into It However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear A CONDOM! Honestly It's A Piece Of Rubber, If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did It I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Now, let's look at Commandment 4. What the heck is it about "the Sabbath Day" that needs to be so bloody rigorous? Okay, no question, people need to rest, need a little time off to recharge the batteries. Even the lower classes that do your work for you, or the slaves that do even more of it. (Wait a sec, if you've got servants and slaves, what the heck do YOU need with a day off, ya lazy clod?! :rolleyes:)

But heck, sometimes there's just extra to do. You know, the surgery isn't finished when the 3rd star appears in the sky --- but heck, maybe we'd just better keep going, or at least suture the poor blighter up.

Or we might ask, why does everybody have to rest on the same bloody day? There you are, everybody toiling and toiling and toiling, and the sunlit parks, the playgrounds, the golf courses totally empty -- then all of sudden, hey "SABBATH," and all those places are too crowded for anybody to fit into.

For my money, just make sure everybody has an opportunity for recreation, and a few decent labour laws can handle that, no problem.

Oh, wait! Maybe it's all about the praying. Maybe God needs everybody praying at once, as loud as can be, or He can't hear it...or it isn't good enough, or whatever.

No! Commandment 4 is rubbish, and of no use whatever in a pluralistic, capitalistic world.
 
Emsy

Emsy

Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
Please note, I asked people in this thread to discuss the Ten Commandments. So far, you have restricted your discussion to my motives.
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Uh, no I haven't.

Remember this gem?

Ignoring your harsh judgement about drug addicted sex workers, I would put to you that morality is a fluid concept forever drenched in subjectivity rather than empirical truth.

And if you are going to be railing on against the 10 Commandments in Christianity, I think it should be acknowledged that its origin was first a centuries old oral tradition which was then heavily manipulated and revised throughout the centuries that succeeded it.

Are you really that surprised that there are inconsistencies in the bible?
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Emsy

Emsy

Member
Mestemia said:
It is interesting how you are guilty of the very thing you accuse the OP of....
As for "manufacturing a talking point", that was done for this particular talking point long before this forum existed
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In what way am I guilty of constructing a rallying point for bashing Semitic religions?

And even if I was (which I am obviously not): how is that even remotely interesting?
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The way I view it, the ten commandments are nothing but a bunch of rules for a religion.

They're not applicable save for those who want to follow either Judaism or Christianity.

There are of course common sense rules in the ten commandments. Do not kill, do not steal, etcetera.

I find them pretty innocuous anyways. It's not like they're calling out for jihad or anything.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Emsy said:
Uh, no I haven't.

Remember this gem?
Click to expand...
Oops, you are quite correct, I did miss that...the thread has being going rather quickly. So let me answer now...

Emsy said:
Ignoring your harsh judgement about drug addicted sex workers, I would put to you that morality is a fluid concept forever drenched in subjectivity rather than empirical truth.

And if you are going to be railing on against the 10 Commandments in Christianity, I think it should be acknowledged that its origin was first a centuries old oral tradition which was then heavily manipulated and revised throughout the centuries that succeeded it.

Are you really that surprised that there are inconsistencies in the bible?
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My judgement about "drug addicted sex workers" wasn't harsh at all. In fact, if you go back and look, you'll find that my inclination is forgiveness. I actually said so quite explicitly.

In fact, Emsy, I was a sex worker. You don't know this yet, but I'm gay, Children's Aid raised (never adopted), dumped on the street at 17 knowing next to nothing about anything -- but I was good looking so I found a way to feed myself. I was not a drug addict, but I do like my beer, and lo these 55 years later, I still do.

I did not like hustling. I wasn't proud of it -- but I am also not ashamed of it. I have forgiven myself, but I don't "honour" myself for it. I did, at the time, what I thought I had to do. There were probably other options available, that I either didn't find or didn't look for. And that's on me.

So I think you may be judging me incorrectly, not knowing much about me.

And no, I'm not surprised that there are inconsistencies in the Bible. I'm surprised that people who know that don't approach using the Bible the way they do with a little more care and circumspection.
 
Emsy

Emsy

Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
Oops, you are quite correct, I did miss that...the thread has being going rather quickly. So let me answer now...


My judgement about "drug addicted sex workers" wasn't harsh at all. In fact, if you go back and look, you'll find that my inclination is forgiveness. I actually said so quite explicitly.

In fact, Emsy, I was a sex worker. You don't know this yet, but I'm gay, Children's Aid raised (never adopted), dumped on the street at 17 knowing next to nothing about anything -- but I was good looking so I found a way to feed myself. I was not a drug addict, but I do like my beer, and lo these 55 years later, I still do.

I did not like hustling. I wasn't proud of it -- but I am also not ashamed of it. I have forgiven myself, but I don't "honour" myself for it. I did, at the time, what I thought I had to do. There were probably other options available, that I either didn't find or didn't look for. And that's on me.

So I think you may be judging me incorrectly, not knowing much about me.
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Then why did you write this?

I wonder if anybody's every noticed that you don't even get to a "moral" Commandment until number 6? (Oh, lot's of people think number 5, honouring thy father and thy mother, is moral, but then not everybody is the child of a drug-addicted hooker who gave them up for adoption the instant they were born -- and I'm pretty sure honouring such a person shouldn't be forced on one.
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U

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
Though I call this a call to atheists, I'm delighted to have others chime in...especially those who adhere to alternate lists. (Heck, even FSM's Eight I'd Rather You Didn't afficionados may enjoy the romp.)

Now, let's begin with the fact that there are multiple versions of the Ten Commandments in the Bible. For instance, the only version that actually says "The Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:1-28) in it doesn't even look a tiny bit like the one that everybody wants to carve in stone outside their legislatures and courthouses, and inscribe on the walls -- or petit-point, for those so inclined.

But for the sake of simplicity, let's just accept Exodus 20:1-17, and number them as the Talmud does (hey, it's the original, and they oughta know). That numbering is in bold red numbers below.

Also, please forgive me if I stay with KJV...it's the one I know best.

Exodus 20:1-17 King James Version (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (1)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (2)
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (2)
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (2)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (2)
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (3)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (4)
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: (4)
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (4)
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (4)
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. (5)
13 Thou shalt not kill. (6)
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. (7)
15 Thou shalt not steal. (8)
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (9)
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (10)

Now, verse 1, of course, isn't a commandment at all. But oddly, neither is verse 2, which Talmud accepts as Commandment 1. But really, it's just a statement of supposed fact, isn't it? So, okay, I'll ease up a bit and say that Commandment 1 is really: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Now, I think this deserves some criticism -- especially if you're going to post it anywhere that government is in control of. I mean, in the US, for example, the First Amendment makes this impossible! So, the US First Amendment to the Constitution is in direct opposition to the First Commandment! (I suppose I would be better off saying that the First Amendment is in opposition to the First Commandment, given the strict order of their production.)

Second, I can't help but notice that verse 5 is in complete contradiction to every civilized notion of justice -- the very idea of punishing the children, grand-children -- all the way to the great-great-grand-children (them's the fourth generation) -- is completely counter to the idea that nobody is punished except for that which they themselves are guilty of.

So, here's my invitation -- go ahead, but only if you are really willing to give an honest examination of the actual words, and their meaning, and to do so with some diligence, as I've tried to demonstrate.
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Clarification. Are you comparing US constitution and government with the laws of the ten commandments?

I think it's a contradiction. US tries to stay within biblical laws (marriage, for example) but then the first amendment says freedom of religion. As for the first commandment and amendment, yes, they contradict. But since there is freedom of religion and church and state are separate, the first commandment is irrelevant to US laws etc. Thou shall not kill is one they agree with. Steal, yes. Maybe the government is a bit wishy washy? We want to keep christian traditions (god we trust, marriage, and god in swearing in court), but then we say we're separate from church (tradition) and state so what do we keep and what can we change.

If that at all makes any sense.

As for "call to atheist", how does atheist relate to your OP point?
It seems like anyone can form an opinion of this-especially those who know christian and jewish theology and government-one's belief in god is irrelevant, right?
 
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