Materialistic Non-Duality

[Valjean]

If consciousness is the illusion then nothing is lost. Everything I am remains in some form and continues to exist as long as the universe does.

The illusion is diversity; the material world we experience in waking-state. Consciousness is the reality.

At the higher levels of consciousness we're talking about there no "everything I am," there is only Consciousness, and that thou art.

 

[atanu]

I'm not saying the "I" does not exist. What I am saying is that the "I" is the physical body/Central Nervous System.

"I" awareness is not intrinsic to body/CNS/brain. All these things are existent in a dead body, which however does not have "I" awareness.

 

[Nakosis]

"I" awareness is not intrinsic to body/CNS/brain. All these things are existent in a dead body, which however does not have "I" awareness.

Which is where we disagree.

 

[Nakosis]

The illusion is diversity; the material world we experience in waking-state. Consciousness is the reality.

At the higher levels of consciousness we're talking about there no "everything I am," there is only Consciousness, and that thou art.

I understand that is what you believe. Myself, I see no compelling need to believe that.

Where does consciousness go when you sleep. The I is gone but the body, the world remains. Where do you find the "I" in a person that is deep asleep or who is under anesthesia? The observer ceases to exist at times, the physical world remains constant.

 

[Nakosis]

But if we're talking about Advaita there is no us, there is no physical being. Only a single consciousness exists in all the universe.

Our "conscious experience" varies, depending on our level of consciousness. The illusion of duality -- maya -- exists in some LOCs, but not all. Certainly not at the level of advaita.

Then ultimately you must be me, in which case, I have to say,

Stop arguing with yourself.

 

[rational experiences]

The human life is a body that owns a brain/mind function that is dependant on the physical reality in which it interacts.

A human being says I experience an experience that is multi selves. From sperm and an ovary, to inception to interactive formation in the process of a spatial womb in water. To be born, to live in a changed sensory function that deprives us of a sanctuary that we owned as that baby in the womb.

We know we experience life diversely until we become an adult, then we also share an adult awareness of 2 forms of human lives. Male and female.....are the human, the same yet separated.

Where we form a conscious awareness of duality.

Then there is introduced separation as caused in science radiation fall out changes...from slight variations to huge variations....as a concept of change that affects our life recording voice and image in feed back. Which introduces another duality......real conscious felt emotion, and AI, artificial recording without emotion.

A changed duality.

Awareness is individual yet combined with all other forms of awareness communicating and recording awareness. And the highest form of awareness is knowing that a conscious non explanation exists that informs us that when we are not physical we still exist. The highest of self is when you are not any self.

 

[Nakosis]

In Advaita, consciousness is not an illusion but the only thing real and eternal. The world of matter is the illusion.

Ok, but when you wake up, you've been gone and the world remains. We've all seen others sleeping. We can see that the physical body is still there, still existent and it is only the "I" which is not present.

The "I" comes and goes, this is what we experience. Our bodies don't disappear when we sleep.

 

[George-ananda]

Ok, but when you wake up, you've been gone and the world remains. We've all seen others sleeping. We can see that the physical body is still there, still existent and it is only the "I" which is not present.

The "I" comes and goes, this is what we experience. Our bodies don't disappear when we sleep.

In Advaita philosophy, consciousness is eternal and never gone. There are three states of human consciousness (link from Advaita Academy):

‘Waking’ State of Experience (Jagrat Avastha)

‘Dream’ State of Experience (Svapna Avastha)

‘Deep Sleep’ State of Experience (Sushupti Avastha)

 

[Nakosis]

The human life is a body that owns a brain/mind function that is dependant on the physical reality in which it interacts.

A human being says I experience an experience that is multi selves. From sperm and an ovary, to inception to interactive formation in the process of a spatial womb in water. To be born, to live in a changed sensory function that deprives us of a sanctuary that we owned as that baby in the womb.

We know we experience life diversely until we become an adult, then we also share an adult awareness of 2 forms of human lives. Male and female.....are the human, the same yet separated.

Where we form a conscious awareness of duality.

Then there is introduced separation as caused in science radiation fall out changes...from slight variations to huge variations....as a concept of change that affects our life recording voice and image in feed back. Which introduces another duality......real conscious felt emotion, and AI, artificial recording without emotion.

A changed duality.

Awareness is individual yet combined with all other forms of awareness communicating and recording awareness. And the highest form of awareness is knowing that a conscious non explanation exists that informs us that when we are not physical we still exist. The highest of self is when you are not any self.

I know my subconscious mind has put forth a lot of feelings and thoughts. It's capable of creating an entire dream world with autonomous characters for me to interact with.

I experience this nightly, along with the experience of myself in the dream, sometimes as my self. Sometimes as someone else. So I know my mind is capable of creating realities that don't exist for me to experience.

I've experienced this universal consciousness. How do I know this is not just one among the many other realities created by my mind? I suspect I like the idea of me being the consciousness that brought forth reality. The mind, what it is capable of is pretty amazing though it tends to get a bit egotistical.

 

[atanu]

Which is where we disagree.

Ha ha. Good. But then show me a lifeless body moaning "I am lifeless".

 

[Nakosis]

In Advaita philosophy, consciousness is eternal and never gone. There are three states of human consciousness (link from Advaita Academy):

‘Waking’ State of Experience (Jagrat Avastha)

‘Dream’ State of Experience (Svapna Avastha)

‘Deep Sleep’ State of Experience (Sushupti Avastha)

• Jagrat – the waking state in which consciousness is focused outward.
• Svapna – the dream state in which consciousness is focused inward.
• Sushupti – the deep sleep state in which consciousness roams the universe separate from the mind.
• Turiya – the state of transcendental, or pure, consciousness in which the focus with both outward and inward at the same time.

I'm aware of Jagrat.
I'm aware of Svapna.
I'm even aware of Turiya at times. The inner and outer experience.

Sushupti?

Suṣupti (सुषुप्ति).—f.

1) Deep or profound sleep, profound repose.

2) Great insensibility, spiritual ignorance; अविद्यात्मिका हि बीजशक्तिरव्यक्तशब्दनिर्देश्या परमेश्वराश्रया मायामयी महासुषुप्तिर्यस्यां स्वरूपप्रतिबोधरहिताः शेरते संसारिणो जीवाः (avidyātmikā hi bījaśaktiravyaktaśabdanirdeśyā parameśvarāśrayā māyāmayī mahāsuṣuptiryasyāṃ svarūpapratibodharahitāḥ śerate saṃsāriṇo jīvāḥ) Ś.B. on Br. Sūt.1.4.3.

The state of spiritual ignorance? Where there is no observer. No conscious awareness. No "I". Your belief assumes that consciousness must continue, must therefore go somewhere. You can believe that but can't actually experience it.

 

[Nakosis]

Ha ha. Good. But then show me a lifeless body moaning "I am lifeless".

Well, we agree here. When a body dies, the illusion of I is gone. You believe it goes somewhere. I simply accept the illusion ceases.

 

[George-ananda]

Your belief assumes that consciousness must continue, must therefore go somewhere. You can believe that but can't actually experience it.

Remember when you say 'actually experience it' you are then only talking of memories of experiences while in the waking state. You experience beyond the mind in the deep sleep state but have no memories the mind can retrieve.

 

[atanu]

Well, we agree here. When a body dies, the illusion of I is gone. You believe it goes somewhere. I simply accept the illusion ceases.

That is okay. But I place "I" ( felt universally by every being) at a fundamental universal level where it is not an illusion. But even if I agree that "I awareness" is nothing but an illusion, then also the illusion needs to be registered and known. So, it is real.

 

[Nakosis]

Remember when you say 'actually experience it' you are then only talking of memories of experiences while in the waking state. You experience beyond the mind in the deep sleep state but have no memories the mind can retrieve.

Sure, I agree that the mind seems incapable of forming memories in deep sleep or under anesthesia. However I don't see how this supports your belief.

 

[Nakosis]

That is okay. But I place "I" ( felt universally by every being) at a fundamental universal level where it is not an illusion. But even if I agree that "I awareness" is nothing but an illusion, then also the illusion needs to be registered and known. So, it is real.

Illusions can be experienced, the experience is real. Like a mirage is an actual experience. We see it. It appears to actually exist but we understand it isn't really there. It is a matter of physics tricking our brain into experiencing something which doesn't actually exist. With a magic illusion, we experience an event that seems to defy the laws of physics. Once we understand the mechanics we know the laws of physics weren't actually violated. What the mind perceived was happening wasn't real but, we consciously experienced it.

That's exactly why I don't trust what we experience. I'm not denying the experience. What I deny is the illusionary nature of the experience simply because we don't understand the mechanics.

 

[Valjean]

atanu said: ↑

"I" awareness is not intrinsic to body/CNS/brain. All these things are existent in a dead body, which however does not have "I" awareness.

I understand that is what you believe. Myself, I see no compelling need to believe that.

I agree. The whole idea's ridiculous (of course, so is quantum theory). Only an idiot would believe it --- unless they'd actually experienced it....

Where does consciousness go when you sleep. The I is gone but the body, the world remains. Where do you find the "I" in a person that is deep asleep or who is under anesthesia? The observer ceases to exist at times, the physical world remains constant.

Where does the internet go when you turn off your computer?

As for sleep, REM sleep, at least, is just level-2 consciousness. Your dreams are realities, just as real -- and just as physics-challenged -- as waking-state (3rd-level).

Anaestheisa? Reality is created by whoever is observing the unconscious patient.

"The world" comes and goes all the time. It's a dream. As Shroedinger pointed out, physical reality disintegrates when it's not observed. We create reality; when I wake in the morning I create the world.

 

[atanu]

Sushupti?

Suṣupti (सुषुप्ति).—f.

1) Deep or profound sleep, profound repose.

2) Great insensibility, spiritual ignorance; अविद्यात्मिका हि बीजशक्तिरव्यक्तशब्दनिर्देश्या परमेश्वराश्रया मायामयी महासुषुप्तिर्यस्यां स्वरूपप्रतिबोधरहिताः शेरते संसारिणो जीवाः (avidyātmikā hi bījaśaktiravyaktaśabdanirdeśyā parameśvarāśrayā māyāmayī mahāsuṣuptiryasyāṃ svarūpapratibodharahitāḥ śerate saṃsāriṇo jīvāḥ) Ś.B. on Br. Sūt.1.4.3.

The state of spiritual ignorance? Where there is no observer. No conscious awareness. No "I". Your belief assumes that consciousness must continue, must therefore go somewhere. You can believe that but can't actually experience it.

Oh no. The experience of absence is not an experience of absence. The being exists.

 

[Valjean]

I've experienced this universal consciousness. How do I know this is not just one among the many other realities created by my mind? I suspect I like the idea of me being the consciousness that brought forth reality. The mind, what it is capable of is pretty amazing though it tends to get a bit egotistical.

This universal consciousness is not something widely experienced or, at least, widely remembered.
The qualities and ramifications of this state are way beyond what most people have experienced or can relate to.

Ha ha. Good. But then show me a lifeless body moaning "I am lifeless".

Invert a colander over a candle. You create a false impression of multiple light sources.
Kill some of them -- plug them up. Have you affected the actual, singular light source in any way?

 

[Valjean]

I'm even aware of Turiya at times. The inner and outer experience.

It is the experience of a timeless, spaceless, Everythingness. It' more than you're thinking it is.

Illusions can be experienced, the experience is real. Like a mirage is an actual experience. We see it. It appears to actually exist but we understand it isn't really there. It is a matter of physics tricking our brain into experiencing something which doesn't actually exist. With a magic illusion, we experience an event that seems to defy the laws of physics. Once we understand the mechanics we know the laws of physics weren't actually violated. What the mind perceived was happening wasn't real but, we consciously experienced it.

Life itself; individuality, the physical world around us, all are violations of theoretical physics.
The Reality of reality has been in question ever since 1905.

That's exactly why I don't trust what we experience. I'm not denying the experience. What I deny is the illusionary nature of the experience simply because we don't understand the mechanics.

Interesting point.
There are levels of reality, and levels of illusion. The 'mechanics' of one level are not necessarily those of another.