Atheism vs (ignosticism, theological noncognitivism, igtheism)

[Igtheism]

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.

Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless utterances.

I have heard atheists say that "God" has many meanings. This is obviously false because Christians, Jews and Muslims all say the same thing: "God created the universe". That's not "many meanings". That's not a meaning because you can't think of anything that could refer to. If you are talking but not thinking of anything you could be talking about, then you're not making any sense.

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."

Putting aside whether some sort of God exists, you are separating 'belief' and suggesting this is completely different to 'thinking, speaking and behaving as if they believe'?

That's a pretty dramatic level of hubris. Or word salad.

 

[Igtheism]

PureX>>Well, that's clearly not true as those terms refer to sets of ideas and ideals shared by a great many humans.<<

What "set if ideals and ideals" are you claiming to be talking about? Can you give a meaningful definition for "God"?

PureX>>And those ideas/ideals clearly exist, as the necessity for the terms indicate, and they obviously embody meaning.<<

But can you do anything besides assert that some ideas/ideals exist that "God" means? Can you give examples of whatever "ideas/ideals" you could be talking about?

PureX>>I think you are confusing what exists or does not exist with what people think exist and does not exist.<<

But like the other guy, you haven't shown that you are able to give any coherent meaningful definition for "God". I claim that you, like he, cannot.

PureX>>Unfortunately, as humans, ourselves, we can't resolve the discrepancy.<<

What discrepancy are you talking about?

PureX>>I think you are confusing what exists or does not exist with what people think exist and does not exist.<<

What do you think people think exist (or doesn't exist) labeled "God"? I don't claim that anybody believes anything labeled "God" exists or doesn't exist. I claim that Christians only think "God" refers to something that exists, but it doesn't And about atheists, I claim that atheists only think "God" refers to something that does not exist.

I claim that in particular about YOU PureX -- that YOU cannot give a meaningful definition for "God". Can you? If you can, then please do so. If you can't then kindly admit that you, like me, can't.

 

[Jim]

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.

I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.

 

[Curious George]

But like the other guy, you haven't shown that you are able to give any coherent meaningful definition for "God"

god = an intelligent, conscious, immortal entity that has a degree of control over all things in the universe and more control over at least one specific aspect of the universe than any mortal thing.

Cheers

 

[Igtheism]

>>Putting aside whether some sort of God exists,<<

I can only put that utterance "whether some sort of God exists" aside, for I know of nothing that the row of letters "God" ("Yahweh" or "Allah") refer to. Do you?

>>you are separating 'belief' and suggesting this is completely different to 'thinking, speaking and behaving as if they believe'?<<

Yes, I claim that Christians, Jews and Muslims only believe that they believe in something that they believe the row of letters "God" refers to, when the truth is that it doesn't refer to anything at all, nothing existent, and nothing nonexistent.

>>That's a pretty dramatic level of hubris. Or word salad.

I claim that nobody knows of any coherent, meaningful definition for "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah". Do you think you can define "God" meaningfully?

The dictionary says essentially that "God" means "Creator of the universe". But that translates to "God created the universe". But the lexicographers ignore the fact that they must define "God" before it could make any sense to put a verb phrase predicate "created the universe" after it. Going ahead and putting verbs and verb phrases after "God" does not cause it to magically become a meaningful word.

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?

 

[Igtheism]

Jim>>I don’t think that’s what “atheism” means now, today, to all the people who call themselves “atheists,” in Internet discussions. Maybe not anywhere.<<

Interesting. So, Jim, what do YOU say "atheism" means today? If you say as most atheists do "Atheism is the belief that no gods exist", then what about the sun? Sun worshipers worship the sun. That makes the sun a god. By definition, a god is something worshiped, right? You don't have to worship it yourself for it to be a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god, right? Not one that you worship, but still a god. Zeus is a nonexistent god and the sun is an existent god. If somebody worships the sun, then the sun is a god, right? And the sun exists. So atheists can't say they don't believe any gods exist if they believe the sun exists.

But my claim is that no one can give a meaningful definition for "God". Do you agree?