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Atheism vs (ignosticism, theological noncognitivism, igtheism)

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.

Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless utterances.

I have heard atheists say that "God" has many meanings. This is obviously false because Christians, Jews and Muslims all say the same thing: "God created the universe". That's not "many meanings". That's not a meaning because you can't think of anything that could refer to. If you are talking but not thinking of anything you could be talking about, then you're not making any sense.

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ok.

Sounds like rather pointless semantics.

At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"
And if the answer is "no", then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.

Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and ignostics do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless.
Well, that's clearly not true as those terms refer to sets of ideas and ideals shared by a great many humans. And those ideas/ideals clearly exist, as the necessity for the terms indicate, and they obviously embody meaning.

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."
I think you are confusing what exists or does not exist with what people think exist and does not exist. Unfortunately, as humans, ourselves, we can't resolve the discrepancy.
 
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joe1776

Well-Known Member
... Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."
Do you believe that the universe was caused? If so, define the cause for me, please.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless utterances.
What, in your mind, is the difference between ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists?
How do they all relate to agnostics (colloquial) / Agnostics (Huxleyan)?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I have heard atheists say that "God" has many meanings. This is obviously false because Christians, Jews and Muslims all say the same thing: "God created the universe".

There have been many other religions through time, with at least 4800* different gods, 1600* are not claimed to have crested the universe
of them. Leaving 3200* who did, how does that work?

* Numbers are approximate and exclude the 33 million or so Hindu gods

Which atheists say god has many meanings, i find that difficult to understand, how can disbelief if something have many meanings?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
You ignore Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Native American religions and many others.

You ignore the difference between exoteric and esoteric religion.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.
Some atheists do; however, most atheist simply lack a belief in god. Show them convincing evidence and they'll be quite willing to believe god exists.

Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless utterances.
Okay.

I have heard atheists say that "God" has many meanings. This is obviously false because Christians, Jews and Muslims all say the same thing: "God created the universe". That's not "many meanings".
So you're claiming that just because Christians, Jews, and Muslims all define god the same way the atheist is bound to their definition? Why? Why can't the atheist consider the god of Bahá'í, or the god of Hinduism, or the god of Sikhism?

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."
Obviously you're unaware of the several attitudes atheists have toward the concept of god. In it's most inclusive form atheism is an absence of belief in the existence of god. More particularly it may mean:

A. the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist.
B. the lack of a belief that any deities exist.
C. a lack of knowledge of whether a deity or deities exist, but have not explicitly rejected such a belief.​

.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that exists.

Atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to something that does not exist.

Ignostics, theological noncognitivists, and igtheists do not believe that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" refers to anything that exists OR ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST! In other words, to say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" is equivalent to saying "Zod", "Vahweh", and "Xallah", i.e., meaningless utterances.

I have heard atheists say that "God" has many meanings. This is obviously false because Christians, Jews and Muslims all say the same thing: "God created the universe". That's not "many meanings". That's not a meaning because you can't think of anything that could refer to. If you are talking but not thinking of anything you could be talking about, then you're not making any sense.

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."
I disagree with your definitions. IMO:

  • A theist is anyone who believes in at least one thing that they consider a god.
  • An atheist is anyone who is not a theist.
  • Ignostics, igtheists, and theological noncognitivists are types of atheist.
  • Deists, pantheists and panentheists are types of theist.
  • Agnostics can be either theists or atheists.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I disagree with your definitions. IMO:

  • A theist is anyone who believes in at least one thing that they consider a god.
  • An atheist is anyone who is not a theist.
  • Ignostics, igtheists, and theological noncognitivists are types of atheist.
  • Deists, pantheists and panentheists are types of theist.
  • Agnostics can be either theists or atheists.
I disagree with your definitions. Imo, and according to different encyclopedia, a Theist beliefs in a personal god. That's what distinguishes her from a deist.
Therefore, if you define an atheist as "not a theist", a deist is an atheist.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I disagree with your definitions. Imo, and according to different encyclopedia, a Theist beliefs in a personal god. That's what distinguishes her from a deist.
Therefore, if you define an atheist as "not a theist", a deist is an atheist.
Please not this nonsense again.
 

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Ok.

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?
 

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Ok.

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?
 

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Ok.

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?
 

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Ok.

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?
 

Igtheism

Rdwin McCravy
Ok.

TagliatelliMonster>>Sounds like rather pointless semantics.<<

Sound like you haven't thought it through that "God" is meaningless and there is nothing for you or anybody to believe or disbelieve labeled "God", as Christians use it. Why do you believe there is something existent or nonexistent to believe in labeled "God"? Is it pure blind faith, or can you give a meaningful definition for "God".

TagliatelliMonster>>At the end of the day, only one question matters to me: "can you demonstrate that which you claim / believe is true?"<<

Sure. My claim is about YOU. I claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, like me, know of nothing that "God" means. You've proved it so far by giving no meaningful definition for "God". Can you? I don't think so.

TagliatelliMonster>>And if the answer is "no",<<

But my answer is "YES", unless you can give a meaningful definition for "God". I claim you can't.

TagliatelliMonster>>then I shrug my shoulders and move on, as such beliefs are utterly merritless, useless, pointless, what-have-you.<<

Then you can't shrug your shoulders, for I will have proved my claim that YOU, TagliatelliMonster, cannot give a meaningful definition for "God", as Christians use it -- unless you can give one. Can you?
 
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