Atheism vs (ignosticism, theological noncognitivism, igtheism)

[Igtheism]

night912>>Your whole argument fails<<<

No it doesn't, for I have proved that you know of no concept of anything that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah". Actually YOU prove it by failing to describe any such concept. To refute my claim, you must describe a concept of something that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah". You haven't done this.

night912>>because it is a fallacious argument and is contingent on using the fallacies that you've committed,<<<

What fallacies? You have shown that you know of no concept that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah", by failing to give any. That's what you must do to refute my claim.

night912>>in order it to even have the appearance of being an argument, let alone a rational one. Off the top of my head, I can name two, moving the goalpost and special pleading. And of course, a strawman has to be thrown in as one of your counterargument against mine. You've used, "concept" as being something that we use alongside a word and its definition. But then you throw in a restriction only allowing concepts that are aligned with your argument. Then there's also the moving of the goalpost. You started off with using Santa as an example for the position of the achievable goal. Then once I've demonstrated that I've reached the goal, which it was explaining how it is meaningful the concept of "God" is, which was the equivalent to the concept of Santa. And response to that was, "we're not talking about Santa." It's laughable that someone even considered that reasoning as being a rational.<<

What's laughable is the fact that you think that you can refute my claim in any other way than to describe a concept of something that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah", and show that the concept you describe is one that they have. You didn't do that, I'm sorry to inform you.

night912>>And of course the strawman came in when you tried to represent my argument as being an argument for just the actual three letter word, "God." And that was after I had clarified my position.<<

Where's the concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim.

night912>>You are wrong when you used Zeus as being the concept for "god." Zeus is an example of a god, not the concept of god.<<<

Show me a Christian that writes "god" instead of "God". You can't and you know you can't. So why don't you use "god" when you're talking about deities like Zeus and the Earth? Then you won't be using "god" for "God". Use "God" to refer to the utterance that Christians make, for which you show that you are unable to describe a concept for.. You remind me of the "argument" that baseball players don't hit baseballs with bats because it would kill the poor bats (animals that fly in belfries). lol.

night912<<One needs to have a concept of what "god" is in order to consider Zeus falling into the category of a god. So you failed on this point.<<

The concept of "god" is anything that is worshiped, such as Zeus or the Earth. The ancient Greeks drew pictures and made statues of Zeus, described him in detail, and even stamped his picture on their coins. So we have a good concept of who they believed Zeus was, a flesh and blood super human that lived on Mount Olympus. They worshiped him so he was a god. Again you write "god" for the Christians' "God". Why do you do that? It just leads to confusion.

night912<<Next, your internet analogy also fails because you are describing something that is not equivalent to the "creator"/created in regards to the universe. You are arguing about a concept when it comes to a creator and the universe.>>

The why don't you show how it makes sense to say "The Internet exists because somebody googled 'how to create the internet' and followed the directions on that website". In going through your ramifications, I must periodically remind you that the only way to win this argument is to show that you know of a concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim.

night912<<I noticed that once you argued that the existence of the concept of "creator/created" is dependent on the universe being in existence beforehand.

From what cases of usage did YOU learn "X created Y"? I claim that you had to have learned the concept for you weren't born with that concept. I claim further that you could only have learned that concept from cases of usage when X and Y were both parts of the universe. Can you name another way in which you could have possibly learned the concept of "X created Y"?

night912<<But in actuality, concepts are dependent on us, humans. Concepts only exist because the human mind exist and is able to come up with the concepts. Searching for information on Google regarding how the internet was created can be found on the internet. The words that you see are not the mechanism how the internet was created, but the concept in which those words are used to describe the process, is the mechanism. So your point here also failed.<<

But I can't possibly fail if you can't show me any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim. I have to keep reminding you of that, lest you forget.

night912<<You accept the concept that Zeus is a god, and people such as the ancient Greeks once worshipped him as being a god. But when it comes to Christians, Jews and Muslims, you moved the goal further to away. Zeus is the label we put on the particular "god" that the former believe in and "God" is the label we put on the particular "god" that the latter believes in.

Where have you shown that you know of any concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim. Sorry to keep repeating that, but if I don't, you might forget it.

night912<<And unlike you, I don't assert a concept of what "God" is and is not, then handing it to Christians and telling them that you know them more than they know themselves. Besides, you've already given examples of it already. Your argument regarding their beliefs is the same as what some apologists argue regarding atheists. The argument that, "atheists really do believe that a god exist, they just don't want to accept it."<<<

But you know of nothing they could mean by "God", right?

night912<<It all comes down to you believing that "God" is meaningless>>>

You are like Christians who label the LACK of a belief as "a belief". But the lack of a horse cannot be labeled "a horse", right? All babies are born with a LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God". I was likewise born with the LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God" also. So all I say is that I still have that LACK of belief that I was born with, the LACK of belief that theists refer to anything when they say or write "God".

night912<<because you are unwilling to accept the concept that a Christian has given you regarding their beliefs on the god that they believe in.>>

What concept?

night912<<A concept that doesn't make sense to you, does not necessarily mean that it's meaningless.<<

I agree. Somebody else might know of a concept that I don't know of. So in that case I ask other people, who claim to know what I don't know (such as you), to educate me as to the concept. So, I'm asking you to educate me as to whatever concept you claim to have that you think Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. Why haven't you given it if you knew of one? If it makes sense to YOU, why didn't you describe it? The only rational answer to that is that you couldn't because you know of none. I prove it to each person individually. I have proved that you know of no such concept, for you certainly would have described the concept if you had one.

night912<<And not accepting that their god exist is not the same as not accepting that they believe that their god exist.<<

What god? You haven't described any god.

night912<<It's not a rational way of thinking if someone defends a dishonest position, the position that asks a Christian to explain their reasons behind their usage of "God" then after the explanation, one rejects their reasons simply because it is not what the individual had in mind. BTW,Just remember this one thing, you don't really believe all those things that you've said. You might think and act as if you do, but in actuality, you don't. Instead, what you really believe, are all the things that I said in my explanation that I presented. And if you can come to accept it, who knows, santa might even bring you a present for Christmas, with a note that reads,>>

Do you think santa might bring me a concept for "God" that YOU have proved you DO NOT KNOW OF? lol

night912<<To: the actual person, and not the word "Igtheism" that is found on the internet, may this present also give you meaning how like it does with those who believe that I exist.<<

I had to pick "ignostic", "igtheist" or "theological noncognitivist". It was a toss-up between the shorter two.

Thanks, "Santa", lol, for proving me right with respect to YOU. YOU have shown that YOU know of no concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You prove that you know of none by failing to give any, for you would have if you could have. You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim, but actually proved it with respect to YOU. I prove it to each individual separately. Thanks for proving it to yourself by realizing that you know of no concept for "God".

I apologize to others who might read this for being so repetitive. From experience I've found that if I don't keep repeating the fact that someone hasn't even begun to show me what I claim NOT to know, then they forget that they haven't shown me that they know of any such thing either. They've only shown me that they are in the same boat of ignorance as I.

 

[night912]

When you can no longer defend your argument in a rational way and end up resorting to repeating something over and over, it won't make a failed argument to miraculously become a successful one.

No it doesn't, for I have proved that you know of no concept of anything that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah". Actually YOU prove it by failing to describe any such concept. To refute my claim, you must describe a concept of something that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah". You haven't done this.

Hahaha. It's too early for you to celebrate a victory party. First of all, saying that your argument is true because I haven't provided my answer is an irrational way of reasoning. In fact, it's a fallacy. And second, hypothetically speaking, even if you were to show that I couldn't provide the answer, that doesn't automatically make your argument true. To me it's funny how you got excited about the idea of a non-Christian being unable to provide examples of beliefs that belongs to a Christian.

Where's the concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim.


You are like Christians who label the LACK of a belief as "a belief". But the lack of a horse cannot be labeled "a horse", right? All babies are born with a LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God". I was likewise born with the LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God" also. So all I say is that I still have that LACK of belief that I was born with, the LACK of belief that theists refer to anything when they say or write "God".


night912<<because you are unwilling to accept the concept that a Christian has given you regarding their beliefs on the god that they believe in.>>


What concept?


night912<<A concept that doesn't make sense to you, does not necessarily mean that it's meaningless.<<


I agree. Somebody else might know of a concept that I don't know of. So in that case I ask other people, who claim to know what I don't know (such as you), to educate me as to the concept. So, I'm asking you to educate me as to whatever concept you claim to have that you think Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. Why haven't you given it if you knew of one? If it makes sense to YOU, why didn't you describe it? The only rational answer to that is that you couldn't because you know of none. I prove it to each person individually. I have proved that you know of no such concept, for you certainly would have described the concept if you had one.


night912<<And not accepting that their god exist is not the same as not accepting that they believe that their god exist.<<


What god? You haven't described any god.


night912<<It's not a rational way of thinking if someone defends a dishonest position, the position that asks a Christian to explain their reasons behind their usage of "God" then after the explanation, one rejects their reasons simply because it is not what the individual had in mind. BTW,Just remember this one thing, you don't really believe all those things that you've said. You might think and act as if you do, but in actuality, you don't. Instead, what you really believe, are all the things that I said in my explanation that I presented. And if you can come to accept it, who knows, santa might even bring you a present for Christmas, with a note that reads,>>


Do you think santa might bring me a concept for "God" that YOU have proved you DO NOT KNOW OF? lol


night912<<To: the actual person, and not the word "Igtheism" that is found on the internet, may this present also give you meaning how like it does with those who believe that I exist.<<


I had to pick "ignostic", "igtheist" or "theological noncognitivist". It was a toss-up between the shorter two.


Thanks, "Santa", lol, for proving me right with respect to YOU. YOU have shown that YOU know of no concept that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to? You prove that you know of none by failing to give any, for you would have if you could have. You haven't given one so you haven't touched my claim, but actually proved it with respect to YOU. I prove it to each individual separately. Thanks for proving it to yourself by realizing that you know of no concept for "God".


I apologize to others who might read this for being so repetitive. From experience I've found that if I don't keep repeating the fact that someone hasn't even begun to show me what I claim NOT to know, then they forget that they haven't shown me that they know of any such thing either. They've only shown me that they are in the same boat of ignorance as I.

You're mistaken. I merely pointed out that your argument failed and presented some of the reasons as to why it failed. Your argument is dependent on the usage of fallacies, therefore it is invalid. And I don't have to attempt at refuting your argument. The reason for that is because you've already done that. Your attempt at giving rational reasons to support your argument resulted in you refuting your own argument.


Here, I'll show it again.

The concept of "god" is anything that is worshiped, such as Zeus or the Earth. The ancient Greeks drew pictures and made statues of Zeus, described him in detail, and even stamped his picture on their coins. So we have a good concept of who they believed Zeus was, a flesh and blood super human that lived on Mount Olympus. They worshiped him so he was a god. Again you write "god" for the Christians' "God". Why do you do that? It just leads to confusion.

So, according to you, you do have a concept for it. Let's break it down. I'll be using the word "God" with capital "G" to represent the usage from the three Abrahamic religion. The first part of it is obvious, "God", by your own definition and/or accepted concept, is a "god." That in itself, already defeated your argument. But since you insisted on seeing more than one way as to why your argument fails, I'll go a little further. In the same way as the ancient Greeks did when they wanted their own god to be more special and unique, give that god its own name/title/label along with some stories about that god. The Greeks have their art, poems, and stories, while the Abrahamic religions have their religious scriptures. They are both the same and can be use against your argument to easily refute it. So what did you end up doing? Move the goalpost and make special pleas so that only your ideas are the only ones that are qualified as a concept.


And apparently you missed my whole point in regards to your internet analogy. The idea that the internet exist because someone googled the instructions on how it was created is not remotely close to being similar to saying, "the universe was created." Your analogy, not mine.


Apparently you have become so desperate that you are now accusing me of doing something that I never did. And even go as far as changing your whole argument. Here's what you said....

You are like Christians who label the LACK of a belief as "a belief". But the lack of a horse cannot be labeled "a horse", right? All babies are born with a LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God". I was likewise born with the LACK of any belief to call "a belief in God" also. So all I say is that I still have that LACK of belief that I was born with, the LACK of belief that theists refer to anything when they say or write "God".

No, that's not what said. Your whole argument was that Christians haven't provided you with their concept of what they believe to be "God." That's why you repeatedly posting saying that I can't and for me to provide an example of what Christians see as their concept for God. You even went as far as saying that they don't really believe in God, even if they say they do. And I even clarified one of my points, which is, after explaining what their beliefs are, it comes down to acceptance. And I made clear distinction the difference between accepting and believing their beliefs as true vs not believing that their beliefs as true but still accept that it's something that they truly believe in.
Btw, how did you get from starting off with arguing that "God" has no meaning as, to your lack of belief was what you were first arguing

 

[Igtheism]

>>>night912>>>>>When you can no longer defend your argument in a rational way and end up resorting to repeating something over and over, it won't make a failed argument to miraculously become a successful one.<<<

I'll keep repeating that the ONLY way that YOU, night912, can refute my argument is to show that YOU, night912, know of a concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. So far you haven't, so you can't even put a dent in my claim, let alone refute it.

>>>night912>>>Your whole argument was that Christians haven't provided you with their concept of what they believe to be "God." That's why you repeatedly posting saying that I can't<<

And --- you've shown very clearly that you can't -- simply by failing to do so. If you could have, you definitely would have done so to show me I'm wrong. So you've only shown that you're just like me in that you also know of no concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to.

Maybe you haven't realized that you also don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. But it's obvious that you don't -- otherwise you would have described the concept and refuted my claim, since you obviously would like to refute my claim.

So why not join the club of the elite few who have had it dawn upon them that they really don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. The next step is to try hard to find a concept of something that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. Maybe ask a few Christians, Jews and Muslims what they use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. I guarantee you they'll say the equivalent of "The creator of the universe". Eventually you'll see that can't make any sense, and is just word soup. I'll help you see it. Just ask.

 

[night912]

>>>night912>>>>>When you can no longer defend your argument in a rational way and end up resorting to repeating something over and over, it won't make a failed argument to miraculously become a successful one.<<<

I'll keep repeating that the ONLY way that YOU, night912, can refute my argument is to show that YOU, night912, know of a concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. So far you haven't, so you can't even put a dent in my claim, let alone refute it.

>>>night912>>>Your whole argument was that Christians haven't provided you with their concept of what they believe to be "God." That's why you repeatedly posting saying that I can't<<

And --- you've shown very clearly that you can't -- simply by failing to do so. If you could have, you definitely would have done so to show me I'm wrong. So you've only shown that you're just like me in that you also know of no concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to.

Maybe you haven't realized that you also don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. But it's obvious that you don't -- otherwise you would have described the concept and refuted my claim, since you obviously would like to refute my claim.

So why not join the club of the elite few who have had it dawn upon them that they really don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. The next step is to try hard to find a concept of something that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. Maybe ask a few Christians, Jews and Muslims what they use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. I guarantee you they'll say the equivalent of "The creator of the universe". Eventually you'll see that can't make any sense, and is just word soup. I'll help you see it. Just ask.

I already did. Your argument has been refuted already.

 

[night912]

>>>night912>>>>>When you can no longer defend your argument in a rational way and end up resorting to repeating something over and over, it won't make a failed argument to miraculously become a successful one.<<<

I'll keep repeating that the ONLY way that YOU, night912, can refute my argument is to show that YOU, night912, know of a concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. So far you haven't, so you can't even put a dent in my claim, let alone refute it.

>>>night912>>>Your whole argument was that Christians haven't provided you with their concept of what they believe to be "God." That's why you repeatedly posting saying that I can't<<

And --- you've shown very clearly that you can't -- simply by failing to do so. If you could have, you definitely would have done so to show me I'm wrong. So you've only shown that you're just like me in that you also know of no concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to.

Maybe you haven't realized that you also don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. But it's obvious that you don't -- otherwise you would have described the concept and refuted my claim, since you obviously would like to refute my claim.

So why not join the club of the elite few who have had it dawn upon them that they really don't know of any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. The next step is to try hard to find a concept of something that Christians, Jews and Muslims use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. Maybe ask a few Christians, Jews and Muslims what they use "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim" or "Allah" to refer to. I guarantee you they'll say the equivalent of "The creator of the universe". Eventually you'll see that can't make any sense, and is just word soup. I'll help you see it. Just ask.

It's not my fault that you are unwilling to accept that they have a concept. And your argument is refuted based on the facts, regardless of whether you acknowledge it or not. And apparently you will just continue to repeat the same thing, I'll have you on ignore, for the time being.

 

[Igtheism]

>>>night912<<<I already did.

No you didn't, and you KNOW you didn't.

>>>night912<<<Your argument has been refuted already.

Sorry, but you can't fool me. You never described any concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims are referring to when they say "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim", or "Allah".

 

[Igtheism]

night912<<Your whole argument fails...>>

I'll tailor my argument to YOU and only YOU. I claim that YOU, night912, (only YOU and no other person in the world), cannot describe any concept that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are referring to when they speak or write "God", "Yahweh", "Elohim", or "Allah".

 

[Igtheism]

Jim<<<If you frame your debate as a debate with atheists, the discussion might get sidetracked into a debate about the meaning of “atheist.” It might be better to start a new thread with a title like this: “God does not exist” vs “‘God’ is nothing but a meaningless string of letters.” A brief description of the positions that you’re opposing to each other, rather than your labels for them, if you don’t want to be sidetracked into a debate about the meaning if “atheist” and whether or not you are one. Then in the first post, describe the opposing positions in more detail, and your reasoning for what you’re saying.

Thanks. Good idea. How do you post? I can't find how to start a new thread anymore. I found it when I first came in here, but I can't find it now. All I can do now is reply. Thanks in advance for telling me how to do that.

 

[Willamena]

I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."

Okay. Who are you to say what they believe?

 

[Igtheism]

Igtheist<<I have also heard atheists say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" can't be meaningless, because then Christians, Jews and Muslims wouldn't be worshiping anything, and we know they do. Atheists think they have defeated me when they ask "What deity do Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in?" My answer to that is "They do not believe in any deity. They only think they do, speak as though they do, and behave as though they do. But they don't."<<

Willamena<<Okay. Who are you to say what they believe?>>

I don't. I say what they DON'T BELIEVE. I say they DON'T BELIEVE in any god, they just believe that they do. You, I and they all agree that they believe that they believe in a god, even though they don't. That's what they believe -- that they believe in a god named "God", but they don't. They can't believe in any god, for they haven't defined any god to believe in. Atheists believe they believe in a god, but there is no reason to believe they do, for, I repeat, there is no reason to believe they have defined a god named "God" to believe in.

 

[Igtheism]

<<night912>><<When you can no longer defend your argument in a rational way and end up resorting to repeating something over and over, it won't make a failed argument to miraculously become a successful one.

<<night912>><<Here, I'll show it again.

<<night912>><<So, according to you, you do have a concept for it.

No I don't, and neither do you.

<<night912>><<Let's break it down. I'll be using the word "God" with capital "G" to represent the usage from the three Abrahamic religion.

Abrahamic usage? Do you consider mouthing a meaningless sound "'using' the meaningless sound"? If I yawn and say "ho ho hum", do you say I'm "using ho ho hum"? I know that they utter "God", but I don't label that "using" God. Do you? Even if you do, you haven't shown that they use "God" to refer to anything. .

<<night912>><<The first part of it is obvious, "God", by your own definition and/or accepted concept, is a "god."

What?? By "my own definition". What on earth? I claim it doesn't have any coherent definition. There is no concept of anything that they speak "God" to refer to. Where did you get that?

<<night912>><<That in itself, already defeated your argument.

You must be talking about somebody else. I never gave any definition at all. Somebody else must have attempted to and you thought you were talking to them.

<<night912>><<But since you insisted on seeing more than one way as to why your argument fails,

I have no idea what you're talking about. You're certainly not talking about me.

<<night912>><<I'll go a little further. In the same way as the ancient Greeks did when they wanted their own god to be more special and unique, give that god its own name/title/label along with some stories about that god. The Greeks have their art, poems, and stories, while the Abrahamic religions have their religious scriptures.

But I have no faith that their scriptures are meaningful. That's YOUR faith, not mine.

<<night912>><<They are both the same and can be use against your argument to easily refute it. So what did you end up doing? Move the goalpost and make special pleas so that only your ideas are the only ones that are qualified as a concept.

CONCEPT? WHAT CONCEPT? You haven't described any concept.

<<night912>><<And apparently you missed my whole point in regards to your internet analogy. The idea that the internet exist because someone googled the instructions on how it was created is not remotely close to being similar to saying, "the universe was created." Your analogy, not mine.

Youi can't define "God". You can't define "the universe was created". You have to be able to think of what you're talking about to be talking coherently. You aren't making any sense. You can't define "God". Nobody has ever defined it. They've just mouthed it and written it.

<<night912>><<Apparently you have become so desperate that you are now accusing me of doing something that I never did.

Desperate for what? You're the one desperate because you have faith that "God" refers to something, and you can't even tell me anything it refers to.
I only know that you cannot define "God" or conjure up a concept for "creating the universe".

<<night912>><<And even go as far as changing your whole argument. Here's what you said....

I don't know what you're talking about. But I DO KNOW THAT YOU know on no coherent meaning for "God".

<<night912>><<No, that's not what said. Your whole argument was that Christians haven't provided you with their concept of what they believe to be "God."

Nope. They haven't furnished me any concept for "God". YOU HAVEN'T EITHER!!! You've only proved that you are just like me in that you don't have any concept -- for either "God" or "creating the universe".

<<night912>><<That's why you repeatedly posting saying that I can't and for me to provide an example of what Christians see as their concept for God.

YOU DON'T KNOW OF ANY CONCEPT! IF YOU DID YOU'D HAVE DESCRIBED IT. BUT YOU HAVEN'T AND YOU KNOW YOU HAVEN'T!!!

<<night912>><<You even went as far as saying that they don't really believe in God, even if they say they do.

That's right. They haven't defined any god. They only think they have. You think they have too. But you certainly don't know of any concept for "God". If you did you'd have described it. But you didn't!

<<night912>><<And I even clarified one of my points, which is, after explaining what their beliefs are, it comes down to acceptance. And I made clear distinction the difference between accepting and believing their beliefs as true vs not believing that their beliefs as true but still accept that it's something that they truly believe in.
Btw, how did you get from starting off with arguing that "God" has no meaning as, to your lack of belief was what you were first arguing[/QUOTE]

FACE IT, night912. YOU DON'T KNOW OF ANY CONCEPT OF ANYTHING THAT CHRISTIANS, JEWS OR MUSLIMS REFER TO WHEN THEY SAY "God", "YAHWEH" or "ALLAH". ! IF YOU DID YOU'D HAVE DESCRIBED IT. BUT YOU HAVEN'T AND YOU KNOW YOU HAVEN'T--- WHY DIDN'T YOU? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. NOBODY CAN. YOU DON'T KNOW OF ANY CONCEPT FOR "God". !!! Now either describe a concept for the sound "God" or admit that you don't have any concept for the sound "God". OK?