World Ceasefire- the beginning of the end of War?

[Deeje]

But, even with the problems I can see with these prophecies, they are the strongest ones I've seen them give. And I'm yet to hear a Christian say why William Miller's calculations that lead up to 1844 are wrong. So if they are right, what happened? Why didn't Jesus come back? Or, is the Baha'i Faith that promised return? Other problems I've seen is that they use the "Three Woes" in Revelation as being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. In context of the verses, I don't see it. Besides, the Woes seem to be terrible judgements against the people on the Earth. I don't see how the Baha'is can say how these Woes are returns of Christ.

From our perspective....The "time of the end" would see many woes befall mankind....Jesus enumerated them in Matthew 24:3-14. But it was also to be a time when "knowledge would become abundant" (Daniel 12:4; 9-12) It was a time for spiritual 'cleansing and refining'. The 1800's was a time when humans started to question Christendom's stranglehold on Christianity. The power of the church had corrupted them and it became obvious to many that a change was in the wind. The Reformation had stated something....but it was far from finished, and it failed to unite Christians....instead it created further divisions.

"The flood of false alarms is unfortunate. They are like the wolf-wolf cries of the shepherd boy—people soon dismiss them, and when the true warning comes, it too is ignored.


But why has there been such a tendency through the centuries and down to our day for false alarms to be sounded, as Jesus said they would be? (Matthew 24:23-26) Jesus, after telling his followers about different events that would mark his return, said to them, as we read at Matthew 24:36-42: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . . . Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”


They were told not only to be on the watch and to be prepared but also to watch with eagerness. Romans 8:19 says: “For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.” Human nature is such that when we fervently hope and yearn for something and wait in eager expectation of it, a powerful temptation arises within us to see it at the door even when the evidence is insufficient. In our eagerness false alarms may be sounded.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”
Excerpts from a 1993 WT...
Why So Many False Alarms? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So with eagerness we anticipate the coming of Christ....not in the flesh, but as a mighty spirit King with his angelic forces to judge the world....but only after a thorough witness has been given. (Matthew 24:14)

Christ's return in the first instance is indicated by a series of world events, not by a visible supernatural event. The "time of the end" has to allow for all the events to take place on this earth BEFORE Jesus comes as judge. People are actually judged by their response to the preaching of the "good news of the kingdom". It is the only testimony that they will receive....."just like the days of Noah", Jesus said. No one took any notice of Noah and his warnings about what God was going to do. They were times of great violence and immorality. Decades passed with Noah building the ark that would preserve all life.....when the flood came, nothing outside of the ark lived. We believe that we are staring down the barrel of God closing the door of opportunity, just as he closed the door of the ark. There will be no unbelievers at the end...they all had their chance but they failed to act on the message.

Miller's set date of 1844 was perhaps the earliest stirrings in those who had lost faith in Christendom's doctrines and dogma. They were feeling the need to study the Bible and examine those teachings to see if they aligned with scripture and found them to be based on the traditions of men, not on God's word at all. This was the undoing of Judaism and history was repeating. Just as Jesus led his 'lost sheep' out of that corrupted religious system, so there was a need now to lead the 'lost sheep' out of Christendom. (Revelation 18:4)

As the devil is the master of deception and the creator of confusion, he has not allowed this liberation to go unchallenged. He has "blinded the minds of unbelievers" so that the message seems like nonsense to the majority of people. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) He has created a broken and fractured false "Christianity" that still has people fighting over doctrine.....and killing each other in wars.

The identifying traits of true Christianity are 'love among ourselves' (John 13:34-35) i.e. taking care of one another, especially in times of crisis....and the fact that we should all speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10) which means having no internal doctrinal issues....all believing the same Bible based doctrines, and practicing "Christianity" in our everyday lives....walking like Jesus did.

These are momentous times and everyone needs to wake up and listen before it is too late. That is why we preach....taking the Bible's message to the people, but for now that avenue has been shut down.....the internet (JW.ORG) has become our major platform to educate people about these critical times. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

So this is what we believe and the reason for our main activity these last 100 years.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe this is a new age, the Messianic Age, and world peace was prophesied in the Bible.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Yes, and which other verses? Oh, and about this one, when was Baha'u'llah, The Bab and Muhammad ever seen as being the child that is talked about in this quote?

Jesus did not give Paul any authority to change the gospel message. Paul transformed the ‘Faith of Jesus’ into ‘Faith in Jesus.’ Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ, the Son of God. This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity, that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation and conquered the world, while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy.

So anything that Paul wrote is false? The NT, therefore, is mostly false?

Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation so Jesus did not ‘say’ anything that is in it. Much of it is about the Messiah, so Christians just assumed it was about Jesus.

Jesus didn't write anything in all of the NT. Baha'is have to make the "Lamb that was slain" and any other reference to who is coming back into Baha'u'llah. What's your interpretations of those verses? One Baha'i said that the lamb that was slain was The Bab. Is that an official Baha'i belief or just that Baha'i's opinion?

I do not see what I want to see, I see what the text says, and I read it in context

In context? Hmmm? What is the context of the post crucifixion verses in the gospels?

You show by what you post that you have very little knowledge of the Bible, so please stop pretending that you know what it says.

I'd have to agree with Deeje. You know what the Baha'i Faith says about the Bible, so I doubt very much you have an unbiased interpretation of what the Bible says. Besides, who really knows what it is saying? You can study Hebrew and Greek and still not know. And you yourself have said that you don't know that much about the Bible. Have you read it from beginning to end since then? If you did, what did you think of the book of Amos? Like if we read it in context, how does that fit in with what Isaiah was prophesying?

 

[Deeje]

@CG Didymus...I am just about to attend a Zoom meeting.....be back later to address this post...thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

From our perspective....The "time of the end" would see many woes befall mankind....Jesus enumerated them in Matthew 24:3-14. But it was also to be a time when "knowledge would become abundant" (Daniel 12:4; 9-12) It was a time for spiritual 'cleansing and refining'. The 1800's was a time when humans started to question Christendom's stranglehold on Christianity. The power of the church had corrupted them and it became obvious to many that a change was in the wind. The Reformation had stated something....but it was far from finished, and it failed to unite Christians....instead it created further divisions.

"The flood of false alarms is unfortunate. They are like the wolf-wolf cries of the shepherd boy—people soon dismiss them, and when the true warning comes, it too is ignored.


But why has there been such a tendency through the centuries and down to our day for false alarms to be sounded, as Jesus said they would be? (Matthew 24:23-26) Jesus, after telling his followers about different events that would mark his return, said to them, as we read at Matthew 24:36-42: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . . . Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.”


They were told not only to be on the watch and to be prepared but also to watch with eagerness. Romans 8:19 says: “For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.” Human nature is such that when we fervently hope and yearn for something and wait in eager expectation of it, a powerful temptation arises within us to see it at the door even when the evidence is insufficient. In our eagerness false alarms may be sounded.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’ The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425) “Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible.” (December 15, 1896, page 306) The Watchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157) “The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic.” (August 15, 1950, page 263) “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”
Excerpts from a 1993 WT...
Why So Many False Alarms? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So with eagerness we anticipate the coming of Christ....not in the flesh, but as a mighty spirit King with his angelic forces to judge the world....but only after a thorough witness has been given. (Matthew 24:14)

Christ's return in the first instance is indicated by a series of world events, not by a visible supernatural event. The "time of the end" has to allow for all the events to take place on this earth BEFORE Jesus comes as judge. People are actually judged by their response to the preaching of the "good news of the kingdom". It is the only testimony that they will receive....."just like the days of Noah", Jesus said. No one took any notice of Noah and his warnings about what God was going to do. They were times of great violence and immorality. Decades passed with Noah building the ark that would preserve all life.....when the flood came, nothing outside of the ark lived. We believe that we are staring down the barrel of God closing the door of opportunity, just as he closed the door of the ark. There will be no unbelievers at the end...they all had their chance but they failed to act on the message.

Miller's set date of 1844 was perhaps the earliest stirrings in those who had lost faith in Christendom's doctrines and dogma. They were feeling the need to study the Bible and examine those teachings to see if they aligned with scripture and found them to be based on the traditions of men, not on God's word at all. This was the undoing of Judaism and history was repeating. Just as Jesus led his 'lost sheep' out of that corrupted religious system, so there was a need now to lead the 'lost sheep' out of Christendom. (Revelation 18:4)

As the devil is the master of deception and the creator of confusion, he has not allowed this liberation to go unchallenged. He has "blinded the minds of unbelievers" so that the message seems like nonsense to the majority of people. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) He has created a broken and fractured false "Christianity" that still has people fighting over doctrine.....and killing each other in wars.

The identifying traits of true Christianity are 'love among ourselves' (John 13:34-35) i.e. taking care of one another, especially in times of crisis....and the fact that we should all speak in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10) which means having no internal doctrinal issues....all believing the same Bible based doctrines, and practicing "Christianity" in our everyday lives....walking like Jesus did.

These are momentous times and everyone needs to wake up and listen before it is too late. That is why we preach....taking the Bible's message to the people, but for now that avenue has been shut down.....the internet (JW.ORG) has become our major platform to educate people about these critical times. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

So this is what we believe and the reason for our main activity these last 100 years.

Thanks, I don't think it is an official Baha'i belief that Paul messed up Christianity. But, it is official that Baha'is believe that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. This, to me, shows how the Baha'i Faith is very much tied to Islam. One Baha'i here on the forum, tried to play it off by saying that some scribe probably made a mistake. I questioned that by saying that all scribes would have to make the same error and all previously written Scriptures would have to have been destroyed and the memories of that story would have had to have been erased from the memory's of the people that had read the story. So, I don't think that's what happened.

So Islam writes about Abraham and Ishmael and the Baha'u'llah says that it is true. Ishmael was the son that Abraham took to be sacrificed. So Baha'is not only have their own interpretations of the Bible, but they rewrite it also. Oh, and the devil is the master of deception? The Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan/devil. Other than those few glaring beliefs, I like a lot of what they believe... peace, unity, equality etc. But, for me, the little details in what they say are troubling. But, then again, most all religions have "troubling" beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The problem with this is that you're depending on your own knowledge, understanding, and interpretation of writings which were composed in specific, ancient cultural contexts, in languages I assume you do not speak, and which cannot possibly be accurately understood outside of the cultural contexts of when they were written. Unless you are at least an anthropologist, a biblical scholar, a speaker of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and a theologian - and the best in the world at all of those - what makes you think you have any idea what any of these writings are actually supposed to mean?

Have you read the documents in their original languages? Have you studied the culture that Jesus would have lived within, not just Jewish culture at the time, but even the local cultures of Nazareth and Galilee? Do you know anything about their customs, their traditions, their laws? Virtually everything written in the New Testament was written for a specific audience at a specific place and time - of which you are obviously not a member.

My point is that you do not possess anywhere near the level of knowledge and understanding in the relevant areas to have the slightest bit of confidence in your own interpretations of these ancient writings, anymore than you could have discovered and understood the entire field of quantum mechanics on your own - you need other people who are experts in the field to explain to you how it all works and what it all means, because you simply don't have the experience or the knowledge to figure it out yourself. It's no different for something like the Judeo-Christian scriptures.

I mean, the Bible itself was compiled by the Church, who decided which writings were legitimate and which ones weren't, so you're already depending on them for that, I assume - unless you also have read and studied all of the apocryphal writings from around that same time, of which there are far more than you likely realize.

And yet you think you're justified in ignoring 2,000 years of some of the greatest minds in history all working with each other to try to understand and interpret this collection of texts we call the New Testament, and instead just pulling your own interpretation out of nowhere?

Really think about all this; how does it make the least bit of sense to do what you're doing? Are you going to just read through a massive collection of mathematical formulas and come up with your own interpretation of them? How accurate do you think such an interpretation could possibly be?

Peter was a fisherman who was uneducated and couldn’t even count the days of the week yet Caiphas was the most learned in the Jewish scriptures and failed to recognise Christ so earthly knowledge is not a standard by which men comes to know the truth.

The disciples were not professors learned in any field but simple fishermen mostly. However, I believe they had the one qualification that the Pharisees and Sadducees in all their glory did not possess - they had a pure heart and was it not Jesus Himself Who stated that ‘Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God’?

So according to Lord Jesus those who have a pure heart shalll see God. Only then I believe will we see Christ coming on the clouds in the Glory of His Father with His New Name, Baha’u’llah.

So it is my belief that we must cleanse our hearts in order to know the Father, Baha’u’llah just as we know the Son, Jesus. A pure heart is the criteria Jesus set forth for recognition of His Beauty not earthly learning or even knowledge of the scriptures as the Jewish priests showed that all their scriptural knowledge availed them not and they rejected the truth.

Don’t be afraid of His New Name. It is all throughout the Bible. Baha’u’llah simply means ‘Glory of God’ in English and if you look at many prophecies this name is mentioned. Jesus once was a new name in His time but now all acknowledge His spiritual sovereignty. My humble advice is not to dismiss this lightly but to open your heart and mind to the possibility that as in the days of Jesus we have become too proud in our scriptural knowledge and may be making the same mistake the Pharisees made In rejecting Jesus.

Had they been humble before Him I am certain they would have accepted His truth but their scriptural knowledge made them wax proud before God and they denounced and crucified that Most Great Spirit.

 

[izzy88]

Peter was a fisherman who was uneducated and couldn’t even count the days of the week yet Caiphas was the most learned in the Jewish scriptures and failed to recognise Christ so earthly knowledge is not a standard by which men comes to know the truth.

The disciples were not professors learned in any field but simple fishermen mostly. However, I believe they had the one qualification that the Pharisees and Sadducees in all their glory did not possess - they had a pure heart and was it not Jesus Himself Who stated that ‘Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God’?

So according to Lord Jesus those who have a pure heart shalll see God. Only then I believe will we see Christ coming on the clouds in the Glory of His Father with His New Name, Baha’u’llah.

So it is my belief that we must cleanse our hearts in order to know the Father, Baha’u’llah just as we know the Son, Jesus. A pure heart is the criteria Jesus set forth for recognition of His Beauty not earthly learning or even knowledge of the scriptures as the Jewish priests showed that all their scriptural knowledge availed them not and they rejected the truth.

Don’t be afraid of His New Name. It is all throughout the Bible. Baha’u’llah simply means ‘Glory of God’ in English and if you look at many prophecies this name is mentioned. Jesus once was a new name in His time but now all acknowledge His spiritual sovereignty. My humble advice is not to dismiss this lightly but to open your heart and mind to the possibility that as in the days of Jesus we have become too proud in our scriptural knowledge and may be making the same mistake the Pharisees made In rejecting Jesus.

Had they been humble before Him I am certain they would have accepted His truth but their scriptural knowledge made them wax proud before God and they denounced and crucified that Most Great Spirit.

So, you believe that YHWH, the God of Israel, changed his name to Baha’u’llah... Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

But, it is official that Baha'is believe that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. This, to me, shows how the Baha'i Faith is very much tied to Islam. One Baha'i here on the forum, tried to play it off by saying that some scribe probably made a mistake. I questioned that by saying that all scribes would have to make the same error and all previously written Scriptures would have to have been destroyed and the memories of that story would have had to have been erased from the memory's of the people that had read the story. So, I don't think that's what happened.

You are darn right it is official, and who is more likely to be right, some scribes that wrote the Old Testament 4000 years ago who never had any direct contact with any prophet, or the scribes that knew Muhammad personally? To even suggest that the Old Testament is error free is laughable at best. And of course the same thing applies to the New Testament.

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[Trailblazer]

So, you believe that YHWH, the God of Israel, changed his name to Baha’u’llah... Why?

I am not sure what you are asking since I have not been following this conversation, but Baha'is do not believe that Jesus was God or that Baha'u'llah was God. We believe that there is only one true God and God manifests Himself in every age in humans who have a dual nature, both divine and human. We normally all these individuals Manifestations of God, but we also refer to them as Messengers or Prophets of God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words."

You forget that Allah has sent more manifestations after Bahaollah. Why does your watch stop after that 19th Century Iranian preacher? You deny the myriad manifestations that Allah has sent to the world. You also deny when Allah himself appeared among people. This is an abomination and your sin will not go unpunished. After all, you believe in the God of Abraham who said that he does not forget the sins of people and punishes even generations upto third or fourth for the sins of their fathers. Kindly check that here:
List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia,
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia,
List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet you think you're justified in ignoring 2,000 years of some of the greatest minds in history all working with each other to try to understand and interpret this collection of texts we call the New Testament, and instead just pulling your own interpretation out of nowhere?

Really think about all this; how does it make the least bit of sense to do what you're doing? Are you going to just read through a massive collection of mathematical formulas and come up with your own interpretation of them? How accurate do you think such an interpretation could possibly be?

If these great minds understood and interpreted this collection of texts we call the New Testament the Bible so well, why is there so much disagreement among Christians to this very day? Why are there so many sects of Christianity, so many denominations?

For Baha'is the bottom line is what Baha'u'lah wrote. Regarding the NT, Christians have only oral tradition, sayings of Jesus, nothing original, but Baha'is have the original writings of Baha'u'llah, penned in His Own hand and stamped with His official seal. These writings, what we consider our scriptures, are stored in an archives building in Haifa, Israel.

As I have been saying for seven years on forums, it all boils down to one thing; Baha'u'llah was either (a) a true Messenger of God or (b) a false prophet. There are logical implications that follow from each of these. If He was a true Messenger of God, then He knew what the Bible meant better than ant human being could ever know, because He had the knowledge of God.

Ever since the Bible was written Christians have been shooting in the dark trying to figure out what it meant. If Christians had been able to understand what the Bible meant, they would not have had to hold councils like the Council of Nicaea to try to agree upon things like the nature of Jesus, whether he was God or a man. If Christians had been able to understand what the Bible means Daniel would not have said this:

Daniel Chapter 12: 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

What this says is that many would run to and fro, not understanding the meaning of the Bible. The words would be closed up and sealed until the time of the end because nobody could really understand what they mean. But those that waited the 2,300 years would know….

Baha'is believe that the time of the end of an age came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah unsealed the Bible and explained much of its formerly abstruse meanings that nobody could formerly understand.

Regarding the 2300 years, the math is explained in this chapter:

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

 

[Trailblazer]

You forget that Allah has sent more manifestations after Bahaollah.

You are free to believe in whatever men you believe are manifestations or prophets, but as I think I already told you, Baha'is do not believe that Allah has sent any Manifestations since Baha'u'llah, and the reason we believe that is not possible is based upon this passage:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies. Nay, rather follow the bidding of your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

 

[Trailblazer]

Kindly check that here:
List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia,
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia,
List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

Why would I believe in any of these claimants?
Do they have any evidence that indicates that they are the Mahdi or Jesus?
More importantly, how could they all be the Mahdi or Jesus, since there was only going to be one such individual?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, and which other verses? Oh, and about this one, when was Baha'u'llah, The Bab and Muhammad ever seen as being the child that is talked about in this quote?

I surmise that the child is Jesus but the Prince of Peace is Baha'u'llah. Since they are one and the same Spirit of God, the verses can apply to both of them

So anything that Paul wrote is false? The NT, therefore, is mostly false?

No, I never said that, but if it contradicts what Baha'u'llah wrote 'I believe' it is false.

Jesus didn't write anything in all of the NT. Baha'is have to make the "Lamb that was slain" and any other reference to who is coming back into Baha'u'llah. What's your interpretations of those verses? One Baha'i said that the lamb that was slain was The Bab. Is that an official Baha'i belief or just that Baha'i's opinion?

It really does not matter if the Lamb was the Bab or not. If it is referring to the one who would return, Baha'is do not believe that is the same man Jesus. The Bab and Baha'u'llah were either who they claimed to be or not. That does not hinge upon some interpretation of the Bible, because all interpretations are subject to error. There are many other ways of determining the truth of their claims.

I'd have to agree with Deeje. You know what the Baha'i Faith says about the Bible, so I doubt very much you have an unbiased interpretation of what the Bible says.

And Christians have an unbiased interpretation of what the Bible says? C'mon, give me a break.

Besides, who really knows what it is saying? You can study Hebrew and Greek and still not know.

That is exactly right, so why do some Christians believe they know exactly what the Bible means? I never claimed I know everything the Bible means, I only said 'I believe' that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah and that He fulfilled the OT and NT prophecies.

And you yourself have said that you don't know that much about the Bible. Have you read it from beginning to end since then? If you did, what did you think of the book of Amos? Like if we read it in context, how does that fit in with what Isaiah was prophesying?

Why would any of that matter now? Baha'u'llah was either who He claimed to be or not. The Bible is not even needed to determine that. I have been a Baha'i for 49 years and I never read one page of the Bible until seven years ago. Think about it. Many Baha'is were formerly Hindus and Buddhists. Do you think they used the Bible to determine who Baha'u'llah was?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are free to believe in whatever men you believe are manifestations or prophets, but as I think I already told you, Baha'is do not believe that Allah has sent any Manifestations since Baha'u'llah, and the reason we believe that is not possible is based upon this passage:

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor"

That is "circular reasoning". You are using sayings of Bahaollah to prove sayings of Bahaollah.

And then, something about your all-loving Allah in words of Bahaollah himself:
"Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies.”

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why would I believe in any of these claimants?
Do they have any evidence that indicates that they are the Mahdi or Jesus?

For the same reason that you believe in Bahaollah. Does Bahaollah present any evidence of being a manifestation of God/Allah? The vision of the 'Maid of Heaven"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don’t agree with the idea that man is basically an animal

Doesn't matter what you believe. It's a fact that humans are animals.

I believe we are born pure , noble creatures, noble beings and we have spirits that we can rise above the base instincts of our animal behaviour which is required for us to look after our physical bodies but we are capable of much more than what we are now.

Doesn't matter what you believe. We'll lie amd cheat, fear prompts reactions of violence, and just look at all the selfish people ignoring the health risks and neglecting all semblance of social responsibility to the point of acting anti-social. We are a product of largely our genes, and our environment. People really aren't born as anything other than human. From there, genes and the world and its people shape and mold the individual.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is "circular reasoning". You are using sayings of Bahaollah to prove sayings of Bahaollah.

Sometimes, such as in this case quoting a primary and direct source isn't circular. It should be like telling someone thier answer to a positionoof AA is circular because they cited AA literature.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is "circular reasoning". You are using sayings of Bahaollah to prove sayings of Bahaollah.

No, I am not doing that. I believe in Baha'u'llah so I believe everything He says.

And then, something about your all-loving Allah in words of Bahaollah himself:
"Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing! Whosoever interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy which encompasseth all created things. Fear God, and follow not your idle fancies.”

I never claimed that Allah is all-loving. He can be very wrathful when He gets angry. I would not want to get on His bad side, that's for sure, given His omnipotence and all that.

 

[Trailblazer]

For the same reason that you believe in Bahaollah. Does Bahaollah present any evidence of being a manifestation of God/Allah? The vision of the 'Maid of Heaven"?

But they do not have any evidence to prove their claim to be the Mahdi or Jesus.
Baha'u'llah has evidence and it is not His vision of the Maid of Heaven, as I said before.

 

[Deeje]

I'd have to agree with Deeje. You know what the Baha'i Faith says about the Bible, so I doubt very much you have an unbiased interpretation of what the Bible says.

It is very apparent that Baha'i's do not have a good grasp on the Bible; it is very selective and geared towards supporting their own version of events. They ignore so much. If they just stuck to the Bible, they would know that Jesus has no connection to Ishmael in God's plans.
There is no way to make Islam the religion of Yahweh.

Besides, who really knows what it is saying? You can study Hebrew and Greek and still not know. And you yourself have said that you don't know that much about the Bible. Have you read it from beginning to end since then?

The Bible is not a book you can just pick up and read with understanding.....you have to have God's spirit to gain the correct interpretation of the truth, and a knowledgeable guide to teach you. (Acts 8:26-39) There can be only one truth...not many.

it is official that Baha'is believe that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. This, to me, shows how the Baha'i Faith is very much tied to Islam. One Baha'i here on the forum, tried to play it off by saying that some scribe probably made a mistake. I questioned that by saying that all scribes would have to make the same error and all previously written Scriptures would have to have been destroyed and the memories of that story would have had to have been erased from the memory's of the people that had read the story. So, I don't think that's what happened.

Who and what we believe is a choice, based on what is in our hearts. I see many with Universalist views who want to promote a God who is all embracing and all forgiving and all accepting....but this is not the God of the Bible nor does this align with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Any who wanted to worship Israel's God had to become part of his nation....to live and worship as Jews did. There was never any toleration of other religions, or any ideas that were not found in God's word.
Any time Israel strayed from the pure worship of Yahweh, and practiced false worship, he withdrew his spirit and they were punished, sometimes very severely.

The God of the Bible requires choices to conform to his ways because we know that they are right....even if in our imperfect state, we don't agree with them. Obedience to God is always the wise choice, otherwise we may be eliminated from his plans for this earth altogether. He has no time for rebels or those who want to do their own thing....its his way or the highway....He is the rightful Sovereign of every living, free willed being, both in heaven and on earth. We are all under test as we choose who we will worship, how we will worship, and why we should worship at all. And the fact is, there are only two gods who are vying for our obedience.....one of them loves us and the other couldn't give a hoot who he takes down into oblivion with him.

If Baha'i's think that this world can unite in any way.....to quote an Aussie expression...."they're dreaming".

So Islam writes about Abraham and Ishmael and the Baha'u'llah says that it is true. Ishmael was the son that Abraham took to be sacrificed. So Baha'is not only have their own interpretations of the Bible, but they rewrite it also. Oh, and the devil is the master of deception? The Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan/devil. Other than those few glaring beliefs, I like a lot of what they believe... peace, unity, equality etc. But, for me, the little details in what they say are troubling. But, then again, most all religions have "troubling" beliefs.

At the end of the day, God knows those who belong to him.....he will save whoever it is that is found to be "doing the will of the father". (Matthew 7:21-23) Their names are in the book of life....