Cashless Societies

[Revoltingest]

Inactive accounts have been known to be emptied. One large bank recently stole lots of money by creating fake accounts. There are lots of ways to rob people even in a secure system.

Inactive accounts are of course closed out after a reasonable period of time.
This is commonly accounts with a low balance which cannot justify the cost
of maintaining it. In landlording, if a tenant has a unclaimed security deposit
refund, I'm required to close it out & send the money to the state.
It's called "escheating".

It sounds hypothetical to you, but I've known several people who were employed in industrial security and espionage, and in government intelligence...some as freelancers, others as full-time. Some things do not happen frequently, but happen they do. There's also a literature to be read if interested.

Crime exists.
it always will.
I acknowledge this.
But isn't that outside of normal financial transactions?
It doesn't appear to have any bearing on the OP's theme.

All it takes is a few minor changes in law and implementation and suddenly a small oligarchy controls the economy...oh wait...

I agree...cash is best...but that isn't how our economy operates, and its becoming less and less a factor.

I'll stick with cash as long as I can.
But governments hate the anonymity of it.
It's the main reason we're seeing the phasing out of large denomination bills.

 

[MNoBody]

We all know that currency is manipulated.
But it's still useful because ownership is based upon possession.

of course, it still has so many subtle misconceptions, which are rather blatant which has the whole process snarled up obviously since people still haven't resolved this cash issue to any mutual satisfaction yet......can we? good question...it seems so simple from some perspectives, yet so impossible when the rest of the factors are considered......hmmm
I am more in alignment with this ideology regarding the place of money as a tool not as a master or control mechanism in social engineering schemes

 

[Revoltingest]

of course, it still has so many subtle misconceptions, which are rather blatant which has the whole process snarled up obviously since people still haven't resolved this cash issue to any mutual satisfaction yet......can we? good question...it seems so simple from some perspectives, yet so impossible when the rest of the factors are considered......hmmm
I am more in alignment with this ideology regarding the place of money as a tool not as a master or control mechanism in social engineering schemes
View attachment 39090

We do know that Star Trek is fiction, eh.
But even in that universe, money & barter are common.
So is conquest for material wealth & power.

 

[MNoBody]

We do know that Star Trek is fiction, eh.
But even in that universe, money & barter are common.
So is conquest for material wealth & power.

you know you are preaching to the choir .....right
it is an idealistic dream to pursue, but why knock the dreamers who are seeking a better world than we have.....
taking story lines from any story of merit that has value in some way, however ephemeral.
hope is a great thing, restores the flagging spirits when life gets oppressive
i get the pessimism
hard not to join in some days
but that is just repeating known mistakes
won't make things better that way, shall we?

 

[Notanumber]

Here in the UK, the CCP virus is demonizing cash. The preference for retailers is contactless cards.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

 

[MNoBody]

well, i have none, nada, so nothing to lose.....
[gets the popcorn and pulls up a seat on the hill to watch the setting sun]

 

[Revoltingest]

you know you are preaching to the choir .....right

The choir is most sympathetic to me views.
Other people throw rocks.

it is an idealistic dream to pursue, but why knock the dreamers who are seeking a better world than we have.....
taking story lines from any story of merit that has value in some way, however ephemeral.
hope is a great thing, restores the flagging spirits when life gets oppressive
i get the pessimism
hard not to join in some days
but that is just repeating known mistakes
won't make things better that way, shall we?

 

[MNoBody]

The choir is most sympathetic to me views.
Other people throw rocks.

not everyone in the choir wears brown lipstick [ zappa]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

New story time
went to the landfill one day to dispose of the waste from the jobsite....
minimum load size $20 at the exit.....my debit card did not transact....kept giving them erroneous messages that said the account was empty yet it wasn't and hadn't been....none the less it did not transact..line up size is increasing.
fortunately i had some gov't scrip in the pocket, paid them and was allowed to leave without incident...
now, without cash, what would have happened

More and more, I come across retailers who don't take cash at all, so one day you might end up in the opposite situation: trying to pay with cash and saved by your card.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I wonder if Bitcoin could survive or thrive in a cashless society.

Bitcoin Price is Showing 3 Textbook Technical Signs of a Severe Correction

The ongoing problem with bitcoin is that is has no backing by any thing nor anyone. It has no intrinsic value. Its value is a matter of trust and faith.
It is inherently unstable.

 

[Heyo]

Banks can't seize a customer's money.

They can and they do. They are not allowed to just steal your money but they can withhold it. Many have limits on withdraw, they will freeze your account if something seems not right or if someone claims you owe them. And some have transaction fees.
Electronic money has multiple purposes: 1. it cuts costs for the banks. They can replace offices and tellers with ATMs. 2. it creates revenue. They have inserted themselves into a transaction that once was an affair between the buyer and the seller. When they have total control over that affair, they will take their share (transaction fees). 3. control. The power to control all money streams makes them an even more system relevant player. This power can be "sold" to the government.
The last isn't a thing that they will use prematurely. It is a last resort in a crisis / uprising / revolution.
[/QUOTE]
But government can. They're the primary power.
Having cash is undetectable by government.
So if government cleans out one's bank accounts,
A ready supply of cash on hand will allow one to
continue paying bills.[/QUOTE]
Forget the bills, think buying bread and bacon - or torches and pitchforks.

 

[MNoBody]

More and more, I come across retailers who don't take cash at all, so one day you might end up in the opposite situation: trying to pay with cash and saved by your card.

only if the connection is good, if not, then what, the whole system is too unreliable to depend on it exclusively, since it isn't an unsinkable ship....it is the titanic and has nothing about it to give it stability and integrity in times of crisis
one big coronal mass ejection and those computers are fried and down..... think you want to stack all your hard earned time spent tokens in that basket ....
what gives you confidence in it?
seriously?

 

[Revoltingest]

They can and they do. They are not allowed to just steal your money but they can withhold it. Many have limits on withdraw, they will freeze your account if something seems not right or if someone claims you owe them. And some have transaction fees.

It seems that you & I are talking about 2 different things.
A withdrawal limit is very different from what government can
do, ie, take all the money, & claim ownership. Withdrawal
limits & freezing due to suspicious activity aren't takings.

Electronic money has multiple purposes: 1. it cuts costs for the banks. They can replace offices and tellers with ATMs. 2. it creates revenue. They have inserted themselves into a transaction that once was an affair between the buyer and the seller. When they have total control over that affair, they will take their share (transaction fees). 3. control. The power to control all money streams makes them an even more system relevant player. This power can be "sold" to the government.
The last isn't a thing that they will use prematurely. It is a last resort in a crisis / uprising / revolution.

But government can. They're the primary power.
Having cash is undetectable by government.
So if government cleans out one's bank accounts,
A ready supply of cash on hand will allow one to
continue paying bills.[/QUOTE]
Forget the bills, think buying bread and bacon - or torches and pitchforks.[/QUOTE]
I see advantages of electronic money for banks.
My objection is that government can more easily surveil us.
Some people like this. I don't.

 

[Heyo]

It seems that you & I are talking about 2 different things.

I guess we mostly agree but we argue who our real owners are - as if it would make a difference.

 

[Revoltingest]

I guess we mostly agree but we argue who our real owners are - as if it would make a difference.

Ownership is always subject to the desires of those with the power to take.
But it's still ownership.
All of our rights work that way.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

only if the connection is good, if not, then what, the whole system is too unreliable to depend on it exclusively, since it isn't an unsinkable ship....it is the titanic and has nothing about it to give it stability and integrity in times of crisis
one big coronal mass ejection and those computers are fried and down..... think you want to stack all your hard earned time spent tokens in that basket ....
what gives you confidence in it?
seriously?

As I mentioned, this already happens in some cases. I expect it to happen more and more. Yes, it's hard to do in areas without decent cell coverage (since that's how a lot of the terminals work), but as networks improve, it becomes easier and easier.

Cash handling is a pretty significant cost - and risk - for a lot of businesses, so it can really make sense from a balance sheet perspective to go cashless. As more and more people routinely carry debit cards, saying "sorry, we don't take cash" willmean less and less business turned away.

At some point - and this point is different for every region and every clientele - accepting cash will mean extra needless expense for the business.

How often do you see a business that's happy to put up with an extra needless expense?

 

[MNoBody]

Ownership is always subject to the desires of those with the power to take.
But it's still ownership.
All of our rights work that way.

that's why the hearts and minds program....to gain consent....probably why seizing control over the central media organ was a main plank in the manifesto...hmmmm

 

[Revoltingest]

that's why the hearts and minds program....to gain consent....probably why seizing control over the central media organ was a main plank in the manifesto...hmmmm

If I controlled the media, The Venture Brothers would see a new season.

 

[MNoBody]

As I mentioned, this already happens in some cases. I expect it to happen more and more. Yes, it's hard to do in areas without decent cell coverage (since that's how a lot of the terminals work), but as networks improve, it becomes easier and easier.

Cash handling is a pretty significant cost - and risk - for a lot of businesses, so it can really make sense from a balance sheet perspective to go cashless. As more and more people routinely carry debit cards, saying "sorry, we don't take cash" willmean less and less business turned away.

At some point - and this point is different for every region and every clientele - accepting cash will mean extra needless expense for the business.

How often do you see a business that's happy to put up with an extra needless expense?

as a former merchant i had to pay fees to get paid through E-means....
not so with fungible assets or legal tender, which by the way has printed on it that it is good for settling debts, the basis of legal tender......it covers the bill....zeros out he account..settled closed...right now,no third party, no extra time or processing step....and no additional fees for using that costly mechanism to settle a simple debt.... and no inadequate connection mechanism prone to errors and failures.
[edit- probably why they say cash is king]

 

[Thief]

Absolutely NOT...!!!!

what a ridiculous notion
absolute not

FREEDOM
think
FREEDOM