I have a masters - and I have mentioned doctors AND nurses... is there a reason for your cherry picking?
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"A California Church Was Still Meeting, So the Landlord Changed the Locks"
- Thread starter Skwim
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I have a masters - and I have mentioned doctors AND nurses... is there a reason for your cherry picking?
Would you like to compare nurses (medical profession" as to pastors? You still get more on average.Funny how many of them are plastic surgeons, serving the vanity of rich Americans, or serving rich sports professionals. Or who actually made their fortunes by playing on the business end of medicine, which can't be done in places where health care is universal and single-payer.
And you ignored nurses -- why is that?
Ken, I get it. You think preaching to other people all about the only possible truth (the only one possible because it's the only one you believe) is the highest possible calling.
But what are we really talking about here? I'm talking about doctors and nurses who are putting their very lives, and the health of their families, on the line in the service of those who are ill with this horrible thing. And you are talking about people who should know better -- trying to get people together in groups and thereby quite literally putting THEIR health and THEIR lives at risk.
Congratulations, I guess -- but I think you're backing the wrong horse!
I have just shown you how you express bias (which you haven't refuted).
There are pastors who have and still put their lives on the line also.
If you think "pastoring" is just about preaching. "Highest calling" is simply doing that which you were called to do. The highest calling for one who love to remove tumors would be a surgeon. The highest calling for a construction worker could be building homes for others. The highest calling for a business man may by "how can I get the most goods to the most people at the cheapest price".
Why do you put one group as more important than another?
Would you like to create another goal post?
But you first produced statistics comparing nurses and pastors.
Frankly, I could become a pastor with an online certificate, get tax exempt status, and borrow an empty building. That's all it takes to join the ranks of the clergy in the USA.
It's unsurprising that lots of people make little money at it. This isn't just a Christian Nation, it's also a capitalist country.
Tom
Relevance? Before that I was talking about nurses AND doctors. I chose nurses because of the person with whom I was directing the conversation with.
And if nurses earn more than pastors, it only stands to reason that doctors make the difference between the two even larger (if we are talking about context and move the goal post).
Yes... and you could stand in a garage and call yourself a car too
AND FOR THE RECORD!
Registered Nurse Salaries by education, experience, location and more
If I were making 80G (low end) a year, I would be a millionaire by now.
Registered Nurse Salaries by education, experience, location and more
If I were making 80G (low end) a year, I would be a millionaire by now.
Nevertheless, those were the stats you quoted.
How about this?
Compare the income of pastors with college degrees in theology with medical personnel with comparable credentials.
Like I said, anybody can be a pastor. Including me. But if I tried to get a job as a medical professional I'd never get one, because the medical profession has far far higher standards than the clergy. If I just claimed to have credentials and started practicing medicine, I'd get arrested.
Not so for clergy.
But nobody would take me seriously because there are objective standards for cars. Clergy, not so much.Yes... and you could stand in a garage and call yourself a car too
Tom
That's not entirely true, by the way. A Catholic priest, having attended a seminary as part of his education, has the equivalent of a Masters degree. Average salary is only around $45,000, but there are many benefits, often including housing -- and the education is entirely paid for, so it comes without the student debt that any other Masters grad would be carrying.
Hee hee...
Why did you ignore the most important part of my post -- the part which talks to what this thread is actually about? In case you missed it, I'll repeat it...
But what are we really talking about here? I'm talking about doctors and nurses who are putting their very lives, and the health of their families, on the line in the service of those who are ill with this horrible thing. And you are talking about people who should know better -- trying to get people together in groups and thereby quite literally putting THEIR health and THEIR lives at risk.
I didn't say it was true in every case. Only that, on the average, educated people earn more than the uneducated.
Pastors include everyone from people with double PhDs, basically doing charity work, to uneducated idiots who take up ministry, because it's less demanding than the other jobs they're qualified for.
The comparison between medical personnel and religious personnel, is ridiculous.
Tom
There we agree, of course...
Great statements but no support. You couldn't be a pastor, you would have to close your doors in less than three years IMO.
Clergy does have standards. But, like a car, you could stand in the place it belongs but it wouldn't make you a pastor.
Like I said... I respect what doctors and nurses do but to say that clergy don't--tell that to Mother Theresa and so many others. I know you are trying to make a point but I still find it lacking.
A little bit of history for you!
True Shepherds in a Time of Plague - The Aquila Report
Leprosy Ministry
You don't have the corner on the market.
HOWEVER, I do respect and honor you for what you do... you just can't seem to be able to honor others.
Ignorance gone to seed.
But even a reality check for you wouldn't help your eye-sight.
Where's your support? I've seen people less qualified than I am start churches and thereby become pastors.
Doesn't mean that they make money like Copeland and Hinn and other Christian clergy do. Many don't make much money. And the average earnings of a "pastor" reflect that.
But medical professionals can't get away with that.
No, the clergy doesn't have professional standards. Many do, but it's not a legal requirement. Anybody can become a Reverend. And if they can convince a buying public to make tax deductible donations they can do OK, if not get as rich as Franklin Graham or Creflo Dollar.
Medical professionals cannot do that. It's illegal.
Tom
hmmmmm... no
Medical School Grading: Everyone Gets a Trophy | Physician's Weekly
" This is an excellent example of what I call the “T-ball culture”: No one keeps score. All games end in a tie. Everyone gets a trophy."
Thousands of doctors practicing despite errors, misconduct
And there are medical professionals who go to jail just as there are clergy that go to jail
nice try though
Where is your support?
And are they still pastors after 3 years?
Along with nothing but simple statements (such as there is no standard for pastors) makes one wonder if you really know what you are talking about.
Ken, you will never understand me, because I don't think you can hear me. Here's a quote from your link True Shepherds in a Time of Plague - The Aquila Report
"Those ministers saw the multitudes in London, weary and scattered, sheep without shepherds, and as faithful servants of the master who saved them and called them, they took up the call and they went amongst them preaching the good news of the Kingdom, bringing light where there was only darkness and hope where there had only been despair. Although they could not cure their bodily ills, yet they could and MUST point them to Jesus, the great physician of the soul. Through faith in him, death could not hurt them. Its sting was gone, and the grave was forever robbed of its victory."
One of the things you cannot see is simply this: they went out for the precise purpose of instilling their own religious beliefs into people who were suffering -- hoping, perhaps against hope -- that having new religious beliefs might make dying easier. It never, ever occurs to people of that persuasion that people ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN BELIEFS THAT COMFORT THEM. And since that doesn't occur to them, it doesn't trouble them in the slightest to try to TAKE THOSE BELIEFS AWAY.
For the record, I believe that to be not only wrong, but deeply evil. But because of your own missionary mindset, you can't see it.
Now looking at your next link: Leprosy Ministry [/QUOTE]
I read the link, and I learned what the GFA-supported ministry does -- and more importantly what it doesn't do. Yes, they cook, and clean, and tell people that God loves them and that just because they're lepers they aren't worse than anybody else. And they pray, and they preach, and they covert.
But what I don't see there is any mention of the fact that leprosy is a curable disease! Not a single mention of the multi-drug therapy that can stop the progress completely. No, it can't grow back nerves, or destroyed body parts, but it can be stopped. Yet your site talks about being "compelled to love those with leprosy," and such sentiments. But if you cure it, they no longer have leprosy, do they?
No, I don't have a corner on "the market." But I do think about it differently than the missionary mind-set seems to.
And that, I'm very sorry to have to say it, was very often a deep and dark problem with Mother Teresa. She liked people's suffering, and she frequently made sure that they continued to suffer, by withholding those very medicines that could have reduced their suffering! Why? Because she thought suffering would bring people "closer to God" (while they were busy dying). You should look up the episode in New York (1990) with Mother Teresa and not wanting the convenience of an elevator for people who couldn't manage the four stories. "Our sisters will carry them, just like we do in Calcutta," never thinking that they might have some tiny sense of their own dignity that would make that horrifying for them. That didn't matter to her -- only the suffering mattered.
Okay, I can point you to the CMA (Canadian Medical Association), the standards body that can and does discipline medical professionals, and take away their licenses. There's an AMA too (for those who live in your country) does the same thing.
So, is there an American Pastors Association that can do the same thing? Did that august, professional body ever have a look at Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church? Not that I ever heard of, but maybe you know better.
I read the link, and I learned what the GFA-supported ministry does -- and more importantly what it doesn't do. Yes, they cook, and clean, and tell people that God loves them and that just because they're lepers they aren't worse than anybody else. And they pray, and they preach, and they covert.
But what I don't see there is any mention of the fact that leprosy is a curable disease! Not a single mention of the multi-drug therapy that can stop the progress completely. No, it can't grow back nerves, or destroyed body parts, but it can be stopped. Yet your site talks about being "compelled to love those with leprosy," and such sentiments. But if you cure it, they no longer have leprosy, do they?[/QUOTE]
It isn't that we don't understand each other... we just have different belief systems.
What you fail to notice is the double standards you have:
"But what I don't see there is any mention of the fact that leprosy is a curable disease! Not a single mention of the multi-drug therapy that can stop the progress completely."
What you fail to notice is that doctors are not around.
""Those ministers saw the multitudes in London, weary and scattered, sheep without shepherds, and as faithful servants of the master who saved them and called them, they took up the call and they went amongst them preaching the good news of the Kingdom, bringing light where there was only darkness and hope where there had only been despair. Although they could not cure their bodily ills, yet they could and MUST point them to Jesus, the great physician of the soul. Through faith in him, death could not hurt them. Its sting was gone, and the grave was forever robbed of its victory."
Again.... no doctors--all safely tucked away in their castles?
These ministers were laying down their lives for these people and you fault them for it.
All denominations have a "correction" policy and methods for correction if people do not hold up their standards and their credentials are revoked.
And Westboro Baptist is no different than https://nypost.com/2019/03/23/inves...nded-nyc-and-nj-doctors-are-still-practicing/
Rubbish! Ever heard of Medecins Sans Frontieres? Any missionary society that wants a doctor to go with them can get one with perfect ease. But you have to want one first. But sadly, if the doctor is only interested in curing the body, then why would many missionairies want them around?
Same thing with the plague. The doctors then had no castles (and not much medical knowledge, either by they way). But they were out there trying to treat their patients -- and often enough, dying with them. Read your history before saying nonsense like that.