Greta

[Messianic Israelite]

I was at work listening to the radio when I heard about Greta Thunberg's climate strike in Bristol which sparked a discussion among my colleagues. I however, was reminded a few weeks prior from a message I heard from my faith that included a quote from Dennis Prager. I figure that some people are sitting on the face with this whole issue of climate change but I feel Prager puts it exactly right and I'd like to quote what he said.

-------------------------------------------------------​

He says:
"The difference between Right and Left addressed in this column concerns a fundamentally different method that each utilizes in order to improve society. Conservatives believe that the way to a better world is almost always through moral improvement of the individual — by each person doing battle with his own moral defects. The Left, on the other hand, believes that the way to a better world is almost always through doing battle with society’s moral defects (real and/or as perceived by the Left). Thus, in America, the Left defines the good person as the one who fights the sexism, racism, intolerance, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and other evils that the Left believes permeate American society.

That is one reason those on the left are more preoccupied with politics than those on the right. A simple example should make this point clear. Whenever the term “activist” or “social activist” or “organizer” is used, one infers that the term refers to someone on the Left.

One consequence of this difference is that conservatives believe that good is achieved far more gradually than liberals do. The process of making a better world is largely a one-by-one-by-one effort. And it must be redone in every single generation. The noblest generation ever born still has to teach its children how to battle their natures. If it doesn’t, even the best society will begin to rapidly devolve, which is exactly what conservatives believe has been happening to America since the end of World War II.

The Left does not focus on individual character development. Rather, it has always and everywhere focused on social revolution. The most revealing statement of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama, the most committed leftist ever elected president of the United States, was made just days before the 2008 election: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America,” he told a large rapturous audience....But the age-old wisdom embraced by conservatives remains as true as ever: Before you fix society, you must first fix yourself."

-------------------------------------------------------​

I agree with this. I feel that these issues that people like Greta are concerned about are indeed issues that we should be concerned with, however, the Bible way is the correct way. People should be concerned about *moral improvement* and *character development*. Character education has all but disappeared from schools and this is creating a void or chasm in society which is in effect, being filled with the distraction of social issues like climate change. Children are not being taught to focus on their flaws but rather social issues. This is why I view people like Greta and her followers with skepticism. They don't seem to see the real problem of fixing ones own character. How many of these followers, who mainly comprise of children, are disobedient to their parents? How many of them pressured their parents to take them out of school during this time so they could attend that event in Bristol? We cannot make society better without making our character better first. And the root of society's problem is sin and sinful thoughts. Until we admit this, we cannot hope to rectify the real issues that are 'destroying the earth' (Revelation 11:18). Read that verse. Yahweh cares about the earth but He knows that sin is the problem, not driving one's car to work.

In terms of global warming, evidence suggests the climate is changing but they are some things which are being ignored. What about the increase in earthquakes? Is that caused by the pollution our cars, planes and ships are expelling in to the air? **mod edit**

Feel free to discuss.

 

[exchemist]

I was at work listening to the radio when I heard about Greta Thunberg's climate strike in Bristol which sparked a discussion among my colleagues. I however, was reminded a few weeks prior from a message I heard from my faith that included a quote from Dennis Prager. I figure that some people are sitting on the face with this whole issue of climate change but I feel Prager puts it exactly right and I'd like to quote what he said.

-------------------------------------------------------​

He says:
"The difference between Right and Left addressed in this column concerns a fundamentally different method that each utilizes in order to improve society. Conservatives believe that the way to a better world is almost always through moral improvement of the individual — by each person doing battle with his own moral defects. The Left, on the other hand, believes that the way to a better world is almost always through doing battle with society’s moral defects (real and/or as perceived by the Left). Thus, in America, the Left defines the good person as the one who fights the sexism, racism, intolerance, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and other evils that the Left believes permeate American society.

That is one reason those on the left are more preoccupied with politics than those on the right. A simple example should make this point clear. Whenever the term “activist” or “social activist” or “organizer” is used, one infers that the term refers to someone on the Left.

One consequence of this difference is that conservatives believe that good is achieved far more gradually than liberals do. The process of making a better world is largely a one-by-one-by-one effort. And it must be redone in every single generation. The noblest generation ever born still has to teach its children how to battle their natures. If it doesn’t, even the best society will begin to rapidly devolve, which is exactly what conservatives believe has been happening to America since the end of World War II.

The Left does not focus on individual character development. Rather, it has always and everywhere focused on social revolution. The most revealing statement of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama, the most committed leftist ever elected president of the United States, was made just days before the 2008 election: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America,” he told a large rapturous audience....But the age-old wisdom embraced by conservatives remains as true as ever: Before you fix society, you must first fix yourself."

-------------------------------------------------------​

I agree with this. I feel that these issues that people like Greta are concerned about are indeed issues that we should be concerned with, however, the Bible way is the correct way. People should be concerned about *moral improvement* and *character development*. Character education has all but disappeared from schools and this is creating a void or chasm in society which is in effect, being filled with the distraction of social issues like climate change. Children are not being taught to focus on their flaws but rather social issues. This is why I view people like Greta and her followers with skepticism. They don't seem to see the real problem of fixing ones own character. How many of these followers, who mainly comprise of children, are disobedient to their parents? How many of them pressured their parents to take them out of school during this time so they could attend that event in Bristol? We cannot make society better without making our character better first. And the root of society's problem is sin and sinful thoughts. Until we admit this, we cannot hope to rectify the real issues that are 'destroying the earth' (Revelation 11:18). Read that verse. Yahweh cares about the earth but He knows that sin is the problem, not driving one's car to work.

In terms of global warming, evidence suggests the climate is changing but they are some things which are being ignored. What about the increase in earthquakes? Is that caused by the pollution our cars, planes and ships are expelling in to the air? **mod edit**

Feel free to discuss.

I find your views on Greta Thunberg badly misguided.

Working on individual character improvement will do nothing - at all - to solve what is a pressing physical problem for the human race. Thunberg may express herself in moral terms, but the issue she wants society to address is a matter of hard science, not morality. Arguing that we cannot do anything about climate change until we have fixed our individual moral faults is a complacent recipe for death, famine, war and pestilence.

I also find, not wholly to my surprise, that you have some wrong ideas when it comes to other aspects of earth science. There is no "increase in earthquakes". Earthquakes are the result of tectonic processes in the Earth that have gone on (according to the geological evidence) for millions of years. More here: Is Earthquake Activity Increasing?

 

[pearl]

In terms of global warming, evidence suggests the climate is changing but they are some things which are being ignored. What about the increase in earthquakes? Is that caused by the pollution our cars, planes and ships are expelling in to the air? No, we have to accept that this earth is experiencing judgment and if we want a solution to our problems, we need Yahshua the Messiah to give us the solution through His Word.

There is a relation between earthquakes and fracking.

 

[Left Coast]

I was at work listening to the radio when I heard about Greta Thunberg's climate strike in Bristol which sparked a discussion among my colleagues. I however, was reminded a few weeks prior from a message I heard from my faith that included a quote from Dennis Prager. I figure that some people are sitting on the face with this whole issue of climate change but I feel Prager puts it exactly right and I'd like to quote what he said.

-------------------------------------------------------​

He says:
"The difference between Right and Left addressed in this column concerns a fundamentally different method that each utilizes in order to improve society. Conservatives believe that the way to a better world is almost always through moral improvement of the individual — by each person doing battle with his own moral defects. The Left, on the other hand, believes that the way to a better world is almost always through doing battle with society’s moral defects (real and/or as perceived by the Left). Thus, in America, the Left defines the good person as the one who fights the sexism, racism, intolerance, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and other evils that the Left believes permeate American society.

That is one reason those on the left are more preoccupied with politics than those on the right. A simple example should make this point clear. Whenever the term “activist” or “social activist” or “organizer” is used, one infers that the term refers to someone on the Left.

One consequence of this difference is that conservatives believe that good is achieved far more gradually than liberals do. The process of making a better world is largely a one-by-one-by-one effort. And it must be redone in every single generation. The noblest generation ever born still has to teach its children how to battle their natures. If it doesn’t, even the best society will begin to rapidly devolve, which is exactly what conservatives believe has been happening to America since the end of World War II.

The Left does not focus on individual character development. Rather, it has always and everywhere focused on social revolution. The most revealing statement of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama, the most committed leftist ever elected president of the United States, was made just days before the 2008 election: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America,” he told a large rapturous audience....But the age-old wisdom embraced by conservatives remains as true as ever: Before you fix society, you must first fix yourself."

-------------------------------------------------------​

I agree with this. I feel that these issues that people like Greta are concerned about are indeed issues that we should be concerned with, however, the Bible way is the correct way. People should be concerned about *moral improvement* and *character development*. Character education has all but disappeared from schools and this is creating a void or chasm in society which is in effect, being filled with the distraction of social issues like climate change. Children are not being taught to focus on their flaws but rather social issues. This is why I view people like Greta and her followers with skepticism. They don't seem to see the real problem of fixing ones own character. How many of these followers, who mainly comprise of children, are disobedient to their parents? How many of them pressured their parents to take them out of school during this time so they could attend that event in Bristol? We cannot make society better without making our character better first. And the root of society's problem is sin and sinful thoughts. Until we admit this, we cannot hope to rectify the real issues that are 'destroying the earth' (Revelation 11:18). Read that verse. Yahweh cares about the earth but He knows that sin is the problem, not driving one's car to work.

In terms of global warming, evidence suggests the climate is changing but they are some things which are being ignored. What about the increase in earthquakes? Is that caused by the pollution our cars, planes and ships are expelling in to the air? **mod edit**

Feel free to discuss.

As much as Prager lives to strawman the left, he's on to an interesting point here. Leftists in the modern era have been politically concerned with the eradication of social, political, or economic injustices at a societal level, whether that is monarchy, slavery, disenfranchisement, patriarchy, segregation, or extreme income inequality. The Right's counterattack has consistently been to defend these social structures. Typically they have done so by claiming that a) the unjust system is divinely blessed or instituted, and/or b) the societal position people find themselves in (whether advantaged or disadvantaged) is purely a function of what they deserve or have earned. Thus wealth and social status become synonymous with righteousness, and poverty with sin or moral weakness.

It's fascinating to watch this trend unfold on the climate change debate.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Full disclosure being an irreligious atheist means I do not value the bible, or morality by revelation, as an adequate model for social behavior. I do not see evidence of bible prophecy, for example we haven't had an increase of earthquakes according to seismic studies, only an increase of reporting on them through global telecommunication. What increases we have seen in the few years outside the average can directly be attributed to things like fracking. But we haven't been outside the median number of earthquakes since 2010.

As someone with more of a utilitarian/consequentialism view (descriptive, not prescriptive) I do not view moral decision making without talking about it's effect on others/society. The quintessential 'if it does no harm (to others), do as ye will' frames what is moral good based on the assumption that we are not living in a social vacuume. So of course personal responsibility, to me, is the same thing as responsibility to others. And individual character growth necessitates the question 'how does what I do impact others?'

In my opinion conservative thinking is very often so individualistic that it's at the detriment of others. Emphasizing personal wealth and achievement and traditionalism to such an extent that it loses a sense of empathy, of relating to the 'other.' Imo that's why crime and poverty is so much higher in places like the US than places like Japan, which has a higher sense of social responsibility. Or places like Scandanavia where 'what is traditionally 'good'' does not override 'what is good based on it's own merits?'

 

[Quintessence]

Where's the original source for this article? Could you please add it so we can read it for ourselves? (Rule 7 is a thing)

 

[Augustus]

I figure that some people are sitting on the face

 

[Heyo]

As much as Prager lives to strawman the left, he's on to an interesting point here. Leftists in the modern era have been politically concerned with the eradication of social, political, or economic injustices at a societal level, whether that is monarchy, slavery, disenfranchisement, patriarchy, segregation, or extreme income inequality.

Left and progressive and right and conservative are not exactly synonyms but they tend to coincide. If you replace left with progressive and right with conservative, Prager's "interesting point" just becomes the definition of the words.
And the whole point of his speech becomes a clumsy attempt to discourage people from changing the world for the better.

 

[Left Coast]

Left and progressive and right and conservative are not exactly synonyms but they tend to coincide. If you replace left with progressive and right with conservative, Prager's "interesting point" just becomes the definition of the words.
And the whole point of his speech becomes a clumsy attempt to discourage people from changing the world for the better.

I guess it's interesting to me in the sense that it's fascinating to observe the ways that the right justifies injustice. I'm reading a book on the topic so it's been on my mind.

 

[exchemist]

There is a relation between earthquakes and fracking.

Only very minor local tremors. Not real earthquakes.

 

[Quintessence]

Only very minor local tremors. Not real earthquakes.

Minor tremors are still real earthquakes. You know about the Richter scale, yes?

 

[exchemist]

Minor tremors are still real earthquakes. You know about the Richter scale, yes?

Sure. But it's logarithmic, as so many of these scales tend to be. I have never heard of a fracking-induced tremor that has caused any actual effects at the surface.

 

[sun rise]

Conservatives believe that the way to a better world is almost always through moral improvement of the individual — by each person doing battle with his own moral defects. The Left, on the other hand, believes that the way to a better world is almost always through doing battle with society’s moral defects (real and/or as perceived by the Left).

That's an absolutist and therefore wrong statement.

I asserted that morality and ethics need to play a role in voting. I was challenged by someone on the right who disagreed.

My assertion was based on my root belief that individual morality and ethics are essential not only for the individual but to improve society.

 

[RabbiO]

@Messianic Israelite -

I suspect that Praeger, who, to be honest, I have little regard for, would, as a devout Jew, be mortified to see that you have used his comments to segue into a piece of rank proselytizing.

You might, by the way, want to take a look at the forum rules.

 

[Heyo]

@Messianic Israelite -

I suspect that Praeger, who, to be honest, I have little regard for, would, as a devout Jew, be mortified to see that you have used his comments to segue into a piece of rank proselytizing.

You might, by the way, want to take a look at the forum rules.

I'm not so sure about "devout Jew". Everything he says, could have come from an evangelical. Nothing what he says identifies him as a Jew. It's only from what he doesn't say that one might deduce that he isn't a Christian. And he proselytises for conservative ideas himself so I think he wouldn't mind.

 

[Windwalker]

That is one reason those on the left are more preoccupied with politics than those on the right. A simple example should make this point clear. Whenever the term “activist” or “social activist” or “organizer” is used, one infers that the term refers to someone on the Left.

Unless of course they are a right-wing activist groups, like conservative Christians such as Family Values groups trying to push conservative religion into politics. I don't think activism is a right or left wing thing. It exists at both ends of that spectrum.

One consequence of this difference is that conservatives believe that good is achieved far more gradually than liberals do. The process of making a better world is largely a one-by-one-by-one effort. And it must be redone in every single generation. The noblest generation ever born still has to teach its children how to battle their natures. If it doesn’t, even the best society will begin to rapidly devolve, which is exactly what conservatives believe has been happening to America since the end of World War II.

The real difference between the left and the right politically, is that the right sees everything primarily as direct causal relationship; if I try hard enough things will happen. The left sees that as only true when the social system allows for that to happen. They see not just a single line casual relationship, but rather a system of systemic causal relationships. Hard work is not enough when the system is stacked against you. The left sees the stacking and tries to deal with that, in order to make room for the philosophy of the right to actually work for those who are disenfranchised in society through no fault of their own.

The Left does not focus on individual character development.

That is completely untrue. The left sees that the character and moral value of the individual must be large enough to include others who may be less fortunate than them. It therefore is a primary importance that individual character development take place in order to be more inclusive of others.

Rather, it has always and everywhere focused on social revolution. The most revealing statement of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama, the most committed leftist ever elected president of the United States, was made just days before the 2008 election: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America,” he told a large rapturous audience....But the age-old wisdom embraced by conservatives remains as true as ever: Before you fix society, you must first fix yourself."

Yes, exactly as I said before is the prerequisite for ensuring social justice for all occurs. You have to do that first, but not stop there and only think about yourself. You have to go higher than self-interest alone.

I agree with this. I feel that these issues that people like Greta are concerned about are indeed issues that we should be concerned with, however, the Bible way is the correct way. People should be concerned about *moral improvement* and *character development*.

Social justice for all is absolutely the "Bible way". It's strewn throughout it's pages, old and new testaments.

Character education has all but disappeared from schools and this is creating a void or chasm in society which is in effect, being filled with the distraction of social issues like climate change.

I very much disagree with this that the "left" ignores character development. In fact, social responsibility requires it firstly. How can you care for others, if you don't develop your own character? Conversely, if conservatives claim to be about character development, and turn their gaze away from those in need and yell at them "Get a job, loser", I'd say they haven't developed anything at all with their characters yet. "By their fruits you shall know them," said Jesus. That is those who have truly developed their character, which is demonstrated through compassion.

Children are not being taught to focus on their flaws but rather social issues.

What makes you think this is true? You don't think they are scolded for acting like a selfish brat with others?

This is why I view people like Greta and her followers with skepticism. They don't seem to see the real problem of fixing ones own character.

I would say her outrage at the injustice of the political systems of greed which are harming people globally, shows a rather high moral development on her part. Those that engage in denialism on the other hand, dismissing the problems as a "hoax" or some fool thing, are very low on the character development scale.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of what we mean by character? I take that word to mean one acts with truth and integrity, first in their own lives, and then in their relations with all others. The most undeveloped think only of themselves, the most highly developed think globally. So, I think you may have things backwards here.

 

[RabbiO]

I'm not so sure about "devout Jew". Everything he says, could have come from an evangelical. Nothing what he says identifies him as a Jew. It's only from what he doesn't say that one might deduce that he isn't a Christian. And he proselytises for conservative ideas himself so I think he wouldn't mind.

Since the original post has been mod edited I don’t know if you saw it as first posted. The final paragraph was literally a call to come to Jesus to be saved moment.

 

[McBell]

for the full June 2, 2015 article quoted in the OP:

Differences Between Left and Right, Part II: Battling Society vs. Battling Yourself | RealClearPolitics​

 

[oldbadger]

I was at work listening to the radio when I heard about Greta Thunberg's climate strike in Bristol which sparked a discussion among my colleagues. I however, was reminded a few weeks prior from a message I heard from my faith that included a quote from Dennis Prager. I figure that some people are sitting on the face with this whole issue of climate change but I feel Prager puts it exactly right and I'd like to quote what he said.

-------------------------------------------------------​

He says:
"The difference between Right and Left addressed in this column concerns a fundamentally different method that each utilizes in order to improve society. Conservatives believe that the way to a better world is almost always through moral improvement of the individual — by each person doing battle with his own moral defects. The Left, on the other hand, believes that the way to a better world is almost always through doing battle with society’s moral defects (real and/or as perceived by the Left). Thus, in America, the Left defines the good person as the one who fights the sexism, racism, intolerance, xenophobia, homophobia, Islamophobia and other evils that the Left believes permeate American society.

That is one reason those on the left are more preoccupied with politics than those on the right. A simple example should make this point clear. Whenever the term “activist” or “social activist” or “organizer” is used, one infers that the term refers to someone on the Left.

One consequence of this difference is that conservatives believe that good is achieved far more gradually than liberals do. The process of making a better world is largely a one-by-one-by-one effort. And it must be redone in every single generation. The noblest generation ever born still has to teach its children how to battle their natures. If it doesn’t, even the best society will begin to rapidly devolve, which is exactly what conservatives believe has been happening to America since the end of World War II.

The Left does not focus on individual character development. Rather, it has always and everywhere focused on social revolution. The most revealing statement of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama, the most committed leftist ever elected president of the United States, was made just days before the 2008 election: “We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America,” he told a large rapturous audience....But the age-old wisdom embraced by conservatives remains as true as ever: Before you fix society, you must first fix yourself."

-------------------------------------------------------​

I agree with this. I feel that these issues that people like Greta are concerned about are indeed issues that we should be concerned with, however, the Bible way is the correct way. People should be concerned about *moral improvement* and *character development*. Character education has all but disappeared from schools and this is creating a void or chasm in society which is in effect, being filled with the distraction of social issues like climate change. Children are not being taught to focus on their flaws but rather social issues. This is why I view people like Greta and her followers with skepticism. They don't seem to see the real problem of fixing ones own character. How many of these followers, who mainly comprise of children, are disobedient to their parents? How many of them pressured their parents to take them out of school during this time so they could attend that event in Bristol? We cannot make society better without making our character better first. And the root of society's problem is sin and sinful thoughts. Until we admit this, we cannot hope to rectify the real issues that are 'destroying the earth' (Revelation 11:18). Read that verse. Yahweh cares about the earth but He knows that sin is the problem, not driving one's car to work.

In terms of global warming, evidence suggests the climate is changing but they are some things which are being ignored. What about the increase in earthquakes? Is that caused by the pollution our cars, planes and ships are expelling in to the air? **mod edit**

Feel free to discuss.

Prager sure can cough up some waffle.
Greta is quite clear with the message that our world is heating up because of global warming caused by the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide and methane, mostly caused by human interference with the world's climate. There are also issues about plastic waste, fracking, our damaged ozone layers above the poles and intense city pollution.
It's not a political or religious issue, it's simply to do with deciding whether we care enough about leaving a world for our offspring in later generations to survive in.

Prager reads like a waffler.

 

[oldbadger]

Since the original post has been mod edited I don’t know if you saw it as first posted. The final paragraph was literally a call to come to Jesus to be saved moment.

Oh dear
I reckon that if Jesus could then he would be standing with Greta, but that's just my opinion.